I am looking forward to a hunt I am planning later on. I want to go grizzly hunting up north. I have been using my 7mm Remington Magnum for years and am very comfortable with it, so I plan to make that my primary rifle. I have been looking at bullets and the 195gr Barnes Original looks like a good one. Will this caliber and bullet make a good grizzly round? I may also use it on a polar bear or kodiak hunt if I get a positive response about it.
-Thanks, Kyle

I don't know the construction of the Barnes Orig. I presume its expanding or it wouldn't be permitted as a hunting bullet, but diff jurisdictions differ so I might be incorrect.

Barnes "X" I is ok. My last black bear was facing me at 150 yards; the bullet went full length and was found in the skin behind the ham. Essentially you need an excellant penetrating bullet with lots of oomph behind it. I've seen a griz hit three times - twice by 200 gr. .300WM and one 160 gr. 30-06; one .300WM bullet flattened on a rib without breaking through, and two hit in the shoulder but did not get through. All three were 80 yard shots.

Round nose bullets are apparently the best penetrators. Advice an old timer once wrote about stalking dangerous game is to get as close as you can then get 100 yards closer.

Round nose are not better penetraters.The barnes x and failsafe are two of the best penetraters made and are certainly not round nosed.

Boy I sure would want something bigger than a 7 mag. You're talking about a very big animal with teeth and claws.

I would be thinkin 338 is about minimum with a 250 grain bullet. I wouldn't not feel overgunned with 416 mag or even a 458 mag.

I am trying to imagine being with say 75 yards of that grizzly and thinking...I know this 7 mag is a little light but its my favorite, so I feel ok.

[ 12-09-2002, 02:36: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

Go to a zoo, take a look at a mature male grizzly. I'll bet you buy yourself a .338 or .375 mag.
A few hours south of me at West Yellowstone they have the Grizzly Interprative Center, basically a grizzly zoo with several bears out for the public to appreciate at fairly close range. Once you see a mature grizzly fairly close, the idea of a .284" with ANY bullet seems a bit ludicrous.

FN in MT

well guys, let me say that I do not plan on taking just this rifle. I will probably take my Model 70 458 WinMag as my backup. But I am a deadly shot with my 7 Mag and feel more comfortable shooting it and can place my shots extremely well with it. I can routinely place 5 shots within 3/4 MOA with Nosler 175gr Partitions. It has a 26" tube that can take advantage of the magnum power. But your input is appreciated. Thanks. By the way, can anyone recommend a guide service for my hunt, near eastern Canada (preferably)? Thanks again.

I can understand why a hunter would want to take his favorite rifle. I also know two guys who have taken large grizzlies with the 7mm Rem mag. That 175 grain Nosler is very long and penetrates great. That being said, I don't know that it would be my first choice for hunting big grizz.

Must admit I've never hunted or shot at a big grizzly or coastal brownie, but I've sure come into close proximity of them while backpacking in Alaska and fly fishing for salmon on remote coastal streams. Those guys are big, tough, and at the top of their food chain.

I tried the Barnes originals in a .300 Win mag 15 or so years ago and never bought another box. The expansion and toughness of the bullets was excellent when I fired them into wet packed phonebooks, but the accuracy was mediocre and it took a long time to clean the jacket fouling out of the barrel. A very soft bullet, but it didn't appear likely to come apart on impact. I don't know if you'd run into stabilization problems with a bullet as heavy as 195 grains in your 7mm mag, the 175 is already a very long bullet with excellent sectional density.

Good luck whatever you take, and post the results with photos! Regards, Guy

Bigdogfan2003, I believe they are a good bullet but are not a bonded-core type. The 175 grain partitions will probably penetrate better since they will make a much smaller mushroom and thus less terminal resistance; the Barnes O. does mushroom widely. I would punch-up "Barnes Bullets" and e-mail them about what is the max impact velocity this bullet can take and keep it's integrity. I do know that it takes a 1900 ft./sec. impact velocity to expand. Oh, and your 7 mag is adequate for grizz.

I think I'd skip on the Barnes Original. Every time I've tried them they made me so frustrated with the fouling, I've given up on them.

I think the 175grn Speer GrandSlam would work from your 7Mag.

There is no grizzly hunting in eastern canada. You will have to travel to B.C.,the yukon or alaska.I used to use my 7mmstw for all of my hunting but switched to a 338x8mmremmag for my own grizzly hunt.I shot my grizzly at 50 yards as it was trotting toward me and was glad to have the extra power.

I would stick to the 175 partitions since you already use them with confidence . I would not expect the 195 barnes to penetrate more . In 7mm my other bullet choices would be heaviest barnes X or failsafe or A-Frame bullets .

bigdogfan 2003,

I saw a 7'2" mountain grizzy taken with a 7mmUltraMag this past season in the Brooks Range at a distance of less than 45 feet with Swift A-frames behind the shoulder, one shot........dead bear. I would personally use something bigger.

Joe

I think your 175's in 7mm will give you all you need since you are comfortable and familiar with the rifle.
I hunt elk and deer in grizzly country all the time, not to mention just stepping out my front door where they turn up occasionally.
I carry a 6.5 Swede with 160 gr. bullets, and wouldn't be a bit shy about shooting a griz with it. These griz don't go as large as a coastal bear, but placement is the key.
It doesn't matter if you gut shoot something with a .22, or a .458, there is still going to be hell to pay for bad shooting.

Because you're already compfortable with the 7 mag, I'd suggest staying with the 175 Partitons.
Bears are not impossible to kill, nor are they bullet proof requiring only large bores to kill. More of them are probably killed with smaller bores then bigger ones.
Besides, your guide will highly recommend you use the rifle you shoot best anyway. Its better to hit the kill zone with a smaller bore, then to miss it with a bigger bore. ~~~Suluuq

All bears aren't the same. A mountain grizzly is about half the size of a big coastal bear. The biggest brown bear I've seen looked to be about the same size as a cape buffalo and no one recommends a 7mm mag for them.

For inland grizzlies, any bullet you would use for elk would be more than sufficient. An inland grizzly will probably average less than 300 lbs for females and less than 400 lbs for males. That's for GROWN bears. Maybe 1 in 25 will be noticibly bigger. Sure, they are strong and can be fierce, but we're talking about what kind of bullet it takes to sufficiently disrupt their vital organs for a reasonbly quick kill -- not what kind of bullet it takes to penetrate the blubber of a blue whale.

The jacket of the Barnes Original is pure copper, which is quite soft and ductile, and the core is pure lead. This makes for excellent terminal performance, but they do tend to leave a bunch of metal behind in the barrel, and accuracy can be accordingly "iffy".

As others have pointed out, if you are getting good performance from your 175 grain Noslers, there's really no reason to switch. I wouldn't feel "undergunned" with a load sufficient for a 1500 lb moose on a 400 or 500 lb grizzly.

Hello;
I gotta agree with Stone Creek. Most mountain grizzlies are not the huge animals we picture. As well' a miss with a .375 is just as deadly as a miss with a 7mm. I shot my Griz with my 7mm using 162 gr. Hornadys. I also have a .338, but decided it was more important to use a rifle I was totally familiar with. It was snowing and blowing so I had the bear at a disadvantage, but he never complained.
Griz

BDF2003,

Your 7mmRM with 160-175gr. bullets is a fine choice for mountian grizzly.

If you are serious about a grizzly, I would look a the N.W.T. Grizzly hunting has been closed there for some time. I hear that the outfitters may get some permits to hunt grizzly. Friends of mine that guide there often tell me that the bears are a pain in the ass and that there is lots of them. If they open it up in the NWT. the success rate will be HIGH.

Daryl

Caliber is fine, but I would use a 175 gr. Nosler, or a 160 gr. Failsafe, GS or Barnes X...Another great bullet is the North Fork, and that would be my choice of bullet...

thanks guys. you have all been very helpful. i'll stick with my 175gr partition load. now, can anyone suggest a good guide service?

If I were forced into using my 7mm Mag for grizz, I would use a 175 gr. Barnes X loaded as close to 2900 fps as I could get it. Silly to use such a small deer cartridge on potentially dangerous game though.

You might want to consult your guide about the 7mm mag. Last year at SCI, some grizz guides were stating a .338 minimum for grizz.

BDF'03,

You might want to look at Bryan Martin. He owns Canadian Mountain Outfitters . Here is a link to an article and a set of movies of a bow hunt that Bryan guided - Fall Grizzly Hunt .

I haven't hunted with him yet. But when I go bear hunting in the future, it will be with Bryan. My grandfather is quite close with his family. He has known Bryan since his birth and speaks highly of him. That may not mean much to you, but it does to me .

Warning: Bryan is in his twentys, fit as a goat, and will hunt you hard.

He is in BC however, so that doesn't meet your criteria of Eastern Canada.

Take Care,

-Steve

BDF2003,

Canadian Mountain Outfitters is a good choice for bear. I worked for Brian.
If you don't kill a good Bear with Brian, It will be your fault. Don't let Brian talk you into a combo hunt UNLESS it for a goat. Lots of big goats in his area. Not to hard to get at either. Fishing is excellent. Brian is a salesman..... bear and goats.... you will hard pressed to find a better place.
IF Brian guides you, you better be in top shape for he is a machine, he is not human.

I have killed grizzly with a .338 and a 7mmRem.Mag The 7mm Rem. Mag and 160-175gr. bullet will handle any grizzly.(For big coastal bears I would ask your Outfitter)

Daryl

Gentlemen:
I have used, or tried to use the 195 R.N. and the same in a Spitzer in my 7mm Rem mag. The round nose shot fine, but the spitzer would not stabilize and key holed every shot. The Barnes arginal uses a .032 copper jacket and is not strong enough . I would use the 175 X bullets and never look back. Although I would perfer a .338 caliber or larger just on the off chance things did not go as planned.
George

I shot a good sized, but not huge wild boar with a 7x57 loaded with 195 barnes originals. To long ago to remember if it was roundnose or spitzer. I shot it in the head, above the right eye, slightly quartering ,faceing me at 50 yds or so. The bullet was in the left shoulder gristle plate. It worked of course, but thats not real great penatration.

BigDogFan, If I were you, knowing what I know about bears first hand. I would put that 7mm mag aside and make a trip to your favorite gun dealer and pick myself up a .338 Win mag in a model 70 Winchester, then several boxes of 250 grain Federal ammo using the TBBC bullet.

Seriously speaking I would heed the wise words of Mr. George Hoffman concerning the Barnes original bullets. You will thank him later!

Funny Chigger. That's the round John L wants to use, but he calls it the 338 OH, in honor of Elmer Keith, or something like that...
s

Socrates I had a fella call the house one day and we had a short but informative conversation about bullets to be used for plans game in Africa. This gentlemen was a PH over in Zim. his suggestion was to get my hands on some Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets. They were tops in his opinion. The man's name was Roy Vincent a long time professional hunter with a very good record.

Well, I took the man's advice and bought me a couple of boxes of the ammo. Now after feeding it through my light gun (model 70 338 mag) I found out that handloading the bullets wouldn't save me a dime. This ammo shot inch groups at a 100 yards, that was good enough for this hunter. I went back and bought several more boxes out with the same Lott number.

I use these bullets on several species or animals and the only failure with them was trying to push one through an Elands shoulder at 100 yards. it should have been placed just behind the shoulder, a lesson well learned for future use. It just never made it through and hollowed out a very large cavity the size of double fist. I should have used the .416 Rem mag instead.

Stubblejumper is right, there is no grizz in eastern canada. B.c is the place for you. On the north coast here we have the big coastal browns that they have in Alaska but the record books class them as just grizzlies. Bears over 1000 lbs are not all that uncommon. Better chance at a booker. I cant provide you with any guide services but do know the areas to look to. There is endless coastal grizz country in the skeena region in north western b.c. There is countless salmon streams and lots of logging slashes filled with ripe berries that grow big bears. The nass river produces some real monsters also. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bring your fishing gear or youll regret it.
As far as the 7mag goes, bring that along also. More people up here use the 7mag and the 300win for grizz than all others combined. The barnes x 175 is your best bet over fail safe because their biggest 7mm is 160grns. You may not get match results on paper but fractions of a inch mean little on a animal of that size. My friend in the skeena has killed more than 15 grizz and had the #2 at one time. He swears by the nosler partition 175. Remember your guid will have a big bore over your shoulder if things go wrong. Most prefere 458winmag or a 45/70 lever action.

hi boilerroom, I have been checking out Canadian Mountain Outfitters in B.C. I have heard some pretty good things about them. Let me elaborate a little on my hunt. I do not plan on bagging a 1000 lb. coastal with my 7Mag. I was looking to go mountain grizz (interior grizz) hunting, and from what I have been told, my 7Mag can handle most of them. My 175 Partition load is chrony'd at 3000 fps, delivering close to 3700 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. I feel confident that I have enough oomph to get the job done. As far as when the hunt will take place, I am hoping next year in Sept. or Oct. All of your posts are appreciated and you have all been a real help. Thanks.

Big Dog......Let me put this to you in another way that you might grasp and hold on to. I have seen 3 big bears put down in the wild and that ain't pulling your leg any. Two of them I helped put down! Now at that time I was using a 300 Win mag and 180 grain Winchester Silver Tip. I found out the hard way, that this grand Belgium made rifle was a tad shy in the smack em and stake em routine when it came to grizz bears.

A charging bear that is real angry and headed your way under a full head of steam is not the same as reading about it on a hunting forum. I as a hunter don't want my guide to be killing my trophy animal with his .375 H&H. Your hide will be at stake and that first shot best be on the mark and sometimes if it is your still not home free, if you don't have the proper bullet for penetration sake.

I had a very wise Old Bear hunter tell me some years back "If your gonna hunt the big bears, get yourself a .375H&H. I did and am glad I took his advice. You don't want to be shooting at a trophy bear 250 yards off with a 7mm mag and 175 grain bullet. You just might end up losing that bear and that would be a shame.

The bigger caliber such as the 338 and .375 are like comparing a 1/2ton truck, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton truck for hauling your heavy loads. The 7mm mag is a 1/2 ton, 338 mag is a 3/4 ton, and the 375H&H is the 1 ton truck. I see people all the time over load those 1/2 ton pickups and it isn't long before they are broke down for repairs at the side of the road. A word from one who has been there and owns a 7mm mag as well.....get a bigger rifle caliber (338 mag or .375H&H) for big grizz bears.

[ 12-26-2002, 23:19: Message edited by: Chigger ]

Speaking as a former brown bear and grizzly guide, I'd much rather have a client shoot a 7mm (with 175 gr Partitions, X-bullets, Failsafes, etc)well than shoot anything bigger poorly.

A well-constructed bullet, placed properly, is the ticket.

Now, if a guy can shoot a .450 Dakota as accurately as he can a 7mm, then by all means, use the .450.

FWIW, the only brown bear I've seen drop to a single shot in the boiler room was an ancient boar hit with a .300WM 180 Partition.

Take your 7 Mag and wait for your shot. I have taken 2 Grizzlies with my 7 both have been within
70 yards.The bullets I used were the Nosler Ballistic 175gr and the 150gr. Shot placement is where it's at. A fellow I know has taken at least 4 Grizzlies using the 140gr Ballistic Tip. I am no expert on these bears,just letting you know.
What has worked for me. Good Luck on your hunt.

Straight Shooting
Budweiser

Take the 7mm, follow the advice of BarnesX or Nosler Partitions. I shot one in the Alaska Range this past fall, and every Grand Slam went clear through taking out the lungs and front shoulders, these were 180gr bullets loaded to 3055fps from my Ruger .300 Win Mag. I have sold my .338's, going to use the money for a pure "I want it" rifle. I wish I could help you with a guide, but I have never hunted Canada.

Bigdogfan2003-I can highly recommend taku outfitters in B.C..I hunted with them a few years back and they have many grizzly's and they tend to be larger than average.You hunt fom the river in jet boats glassing until you find your bear then stalk on foot from there.

I'm betting that the 175 X will kill faster on a big griz than the 195 or.

It will work fine use it

The 7MM 195 gr Barnes O's are discontinued. so unless you allready have them, your SOL. I would use the Barnes 175X's anyway. Sorry I cant help with an outfitter.

Once a King Always a King, but once a night is enough