last year with my trusty smoke pole I turned around to find a nice buck on a small ridge right above me, he stopped right as I put my red dot scope on him, I was about to let one fly when I realized I only had about 4" of the top of his back visable over a sage brush. I hesitated and thought I have my gun on him, if he moves just a little I am gonna let him have it, which is what happened. I always wondered what would have happend if I had taken the shot through the sage brush, it was just one bush mind you, my buddy claims to shoot coyotes all the time that are obsured with sage brush infront of them, what do you guys think would have happened

Gidday Cummins Cowboy

I'll tell you what might have happened had you shot through the sagebrush. You may very well have hit another hunter or other person who may have been behind or in the the brush.

Every year there are "accidents" where a person is shot because of hunters not identifying the target correctly. In every case they were certain it was game they were shooting at but because it was partly obscured they took the shot anyway and the game morphs from a deer to their mate.

I don't care if it is the trophy of a lifetime I don't want to go to bed each night with my mates face haunting me.

Maybe I'm overly cautious but I can honestly say I have never shot anyone I didn't intend shooting (though I have had some close calls in other circumstances).

Happy Hunting

Hamish

a friend of mine shot through long grass to try for a heart shot on a Roe buck. He hit a big rock which was obscured by the grass and the bullet split, with part of the bullet tearing the deer"s abdomen, and part breaking a front leg. He caught up with it after a very long tracking job, and it was"nt a pretty sight.
It"s certainly possible to shoot through cover, but when a bullet can be so easily deflected and wound an animal, I certainly would"nt be comfortable doing it even besides the safety aspect.
I know another guy who tried for a heart shot on fallow in tall rushes, he hit the deer perfectly, plus another one behind it in the neck. He accidently got a "two-fer"!
good shooting

Shooting through brush of any type can cause stange things to happen to the bullet.

But on the other hand I have threaded many a bullet through brush by picking a hole.

If you actualy hit brush with the bullet before the target you can expect the bullet to tumble and key hole missing the target or hitting it side ways.

If I have a chance to pick a hole I 'll take a shot. If I can not I well wait for a better shot.

This is one of the many situations where I find a good scope has it way over any type of open sights. With a scope finding a hole is a lot easier then with open sights.

If the sage was about midway between you and the buck and the shot was relatively long, you would have shot over the sage and killed the buck.
Lots of people think they can thread holes, but with a muzzleloader, forget about threading. If you can see through a "hole" your bullet will not make it. Bullets do not follow straight lines.

Brent

If you could see through the sage brush enough to know you wouldn't hit an unwanted target, I think it would be OK to take the shot provided the bullet used was well constructed and of a robust caliber (like .338 and above).

You will get alot of debate on this subject.

I think we should get one thing clear first. When some folks here you say "a shot through the brush" they claim you are just firing blind down through the woods which is absurd IMO. I consider a shot through the brush a shot where you can still see the animal and you know your back stop, a shot where you are holding on the vitals but there may be small blades of grasss, vines, or small twigs hit your bullet. Many times you will never see those small objects in low light.

I happen to find that slow heavier projectiles do quite well when going through small brush. A light fast moving projectile can turn into shrapnel and it can deflect a good bit more.

I've shot several deer through brush w/ slow moving round noses from a 30-30, never missed where I was aiming. I'm not talking about long shots, I'm talking about shots up close w/ small brush close to the vitals.

I would not ever go for the shot through light brush if I knew they were going to cross through a small hole or come out in the opening but, in some of the thick areas around here you only get one chance and if you pass you'll never get another at that particular animal.

Your situation was alittle different w/ the deer being up higher on a ridge, I'm talking of shooting down from treestands.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
You will get alot of debate on this subject.

I think we should get one thing clear first. When some folks here you say "a shot through the brush" they claim you are just firing blind down through the woods which is absurd IMO. I consider a shot through the brush a shot where you can still see the animal and you know your back stop, a shot where you are holding on the vitals but there may be small blades of grasss, vines, or small twigs hit your bullet. Many times you will never see those small objects in low light.

I happen to find that slow heavier projectiles do quite well when going through small brush. A light fast moving projectile can turn into shrapnel and it can deflect a good bit more.

I've shot several deer through brush w/ slow moving round noses from a 30-30, never missed where I was aiming. I'm not talking about long shots, I'm talking about shots up close w/ small brush close to the vita

Exactly, I would never shoot through brush that is more than a few feet infront of the animal, Maybe I should have been more clear. The sage brush was only about 2 feet infront of the deer. It was very clear I had one sage brush clump between me and the deer, shot was approx 80 yards, I ended up shooting the deer, but he started to run after clearing the sage brush, I made a shot that was in the back hip, fortunatly the deer dropped at the shot and never got back up, I must have hit a big artery, If I had connected with the brush shot It would have been a cleaner kill, there was no chance of hitting another hunter as I was sure of what I was shooting at, I guess what I am asking is if the bullet hit a couple branches of a sage brush would the bullet deflect enough to not hit the animal 2-3 feet behind the bush

quote:

I guess what I am asking is if the bullet hit a couple branches of a sage brush would the bullet deflect enough to not hit the animal 2-3 feet behind the bush

If only twigs and you were using a slow heavy bullet like you said, then No, you'd have gotten him.

A good way to prove this is to place a cheap deer target(the paper targets are cheap) a couple of feet behind some small brush but, where you know where the vitals are. The bullet will not be effected much but, if you move it several yards behind the brush it can be effected a good deal.

The fast bullets can shrapnel on twigs. For instance, There's a nice buck on the wall at the camp that was killed w/ a 130 from a 270 win. That bullet hit a vine between the shooter and deer. Looked like he was hit w/ several small projectiles in the ribs. Luckily enough got into the lungs to kill the buck.

I did once get lucky on a big ten point w/ a fast 140NBT from my 7RM. He was standing right behind some tall grass and briars and I took the shot. He was chasing a doe and stopped for a brief moment at a mere 50 yards. That bullet went on through the brush and killed him effectively. I'll be the first to admit w/ that combo that wasn't a wise shot to take. Had the brush not have been right next to him, I'd have either waited for possibly anothe shot or had to let him go.

The worst I've seen was on one big old 8pt I shot about 12 years ago w/ my 30-30 and a 170 RN. This bullet should have deflected but, luckily didn't. He came out late one evening and a small tree blended w/ his vitals in the dark dense cover. I fired and the buck dropped along w/ a little tree in front of him. As I neared the buck there was a small oak about 2" in diameter laying on the ground about 10' from him, looked like a bushog had chopped it off about waist high. Luckily the bullet didn't come apart or deflect terribly, it hit it's mark. The slow moving bullet stayed together going through the little sapling but, I'll be the first to tell you I got lucky. That tree could have deflected it quite a bit. Small twigs and grass close to the animal don't deflect the slow moving heavy bullets enough to worry about as long as they are very close to the intended target. Some people will have you believe that any bullet will deflect 90 degrees off of an 1/8" twig .

Good Luck

Reloader

I've shot at a running deer at very close range...35feet or so
with a 45-70 loaded with 400gr Barnes "originals"

Unfortunatly an 8" diameter tree managed to get between me and the deer.
Fortunatly I center pegged the tree and the bullet went on to hit the deer.. exit the deer and bury it self atleast 8" into a much larger hickory tree.

If the bullet had hit that tree more than an inch to either side it probably would have been deflected.

though I will note that the through-and through hole in the first tree was NOT in "alignment" with the hole in the second tree

I can only surmise that the bullet was deflected upwards slightly by impacting the first tree and slightly downwards
while passing through the deer.

I never did manage to shoot anything twice with that Marlin
and I expect I never will...

AllanD

Mike Venetrino(sp?) did an article some time back on this very subject. Without delving any deeper into the safety aspects of an obscured target, it is possible to shoot through fine stuff with little effect. The bigger the branches, twigs, or whatever the farther the bullet gets deflected.
In his write up and testing it was found that pointed bullets don't react all that differently from round or flat nose bullets. The weight, velocity, and angle seemed to have more to do with the deflection than bullet type.

I don't intentionally shoot through brush. I've taken shot's through "holes", and lobbed arrows over brush, but I try to avoid it. Nate

quote:

I happen to find that slow heavier projectiles do quite well when going through small brush. A light fast moving projectile can turn into shrapnel and it can deflect a good bit more.

According to the results of tests printed in Petersons Hunting,and other magazines,the old myth about slower heavier bullets being less effected by striking obstacles is just that,a myth.Actual testing has shown that all bullets are greatly affected,but the faster bullets did just as well or even better than the slower bullets.In fact the two bullets that posted the best results were a 50gr bullet fired from a 22-250 and a 250gr bullet fired from a 338win mag.The 44 magnum was one of the poorest performers and the 30-30 was mid pack.

Define the brush that a 50 gr 22-250 bullet would do well in?

I did a lot of testing of various loads but it was all on young stalks that grew up where the power company cut. Thus many were about the same diameter from maybe 3/8" to 5/8" from hardwood stumps. I put a very large target right behind those branches.

The 75 gr Sierra HP at 3600 fps blew up on the branches and so did a 12 ga Foster slug break into pieces. Every bullet that touched something keyholded.

My purpose for doing this was that I had got a 358 Win not long before that and blasted some deer with it in the woods and the test was to prove that the 358 was superior.

While it did well on hitting near where aimed the 180 from the 30-06 and the 140 from a 7mm RM did as well. The .22 LR did not penetrate at all and the 375 HH was superior to all.

My considerable experience in shooting game through brush has led me to this conclusion. If the game was standing close behind the brush, he will die. The real problem is hitting brush 20 or more yards in front of the deer.

quote:

Define the brush that a 50 gr 22-250 bullet would do well in?

To provide some consistancy,the testers used wooden dowels to represent branches.The target distance behind the dowels was varied and the bullets were graded by how little they deflected.The two bullets posted had the best results based on this test.

My test could be written into a theory if I could write. Can't see how the 50 gr bullet will compute into a reason?

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:

quote:

Define the brush that a 50 gr 22-250 bullet would do well in?

To provide some consistancy,the testers used wooden dowels to represent branches.The target distance behind the dowels was varied and the bullets were graded by how little they deflected.The two bullets posted had the best results based on this test.

I saw an article on a similar testing. My own belief is that smaller fast moving bullets and through the brush shots are simply bad mojo, and that not all branches are equal.

I recently shot some dead trees with a 45-70 and the exit holes were impressive, even a few glancing shots on the side of a branch appeared to plow straight through, no way you'd get that from a 270. But While trying to dig one slug out that didnt make it all the way through one, I found that the differences in density and curves of the inner cores caused the slug to change directions inside of the tree!

My conclusion was that there are brush shots and then there are brush shots.. IE; soft woods and hard woods, green and dry. Light fast and heavy slow slugs and all points inbetween etc. etc. The statement J Stevens made makes pretty good sense.

Doc,

You never did say what rifle you had when your sagebrush shot presented itself.

Some years ago I was helping a friend track a wounded Whitetail 6 pt buck. After a while when the deer was weakening we could hear him get up and move. Since the animal was staying in the thick underbrush one of us would keep our eye on the ground looking for sign while the other kept a lookout. On two occassions I took a shot at this deer with a 30-06 with 165 RN at less than 5 or 6 yards basically point blank, one of the shots deflected down and hit him low in the frt leg the other a total miss. It does not take much to deflect and it is amasing the angle of deflection.

The 22-250 was included since it is a cartridge that most people would expect to perform poorly through brush.The test was performed to discover if fast and slow were a better combination as some people think.However the results showed that this was simply not the case.However you are free to believe what you choose.

Stubblejumper,

Can you reference the source of the test? I recall a deflection test with wooden dowels that was published in a NRA magazine but I do not recall anything specific to the 22-250 in that test.

What I find hard to believe is that a bullet like the 22-250's or the 75 gr 243 that blew up in my test would make it thru while other slower bullets would not. This goes against most logic where the high velocity bullet is supposed to be safer from richocets for instance.

Now at some point the brush, dowel or twig can be so tiny that the 50 bullet walks right thru it such as paper at 90 degrees. Even then.

Like so many internet disagreements I put this one down to a failure to communicate or understand. Now we know that very high velocity bullets will penetrate steel for instance if it hits square. Is this what the test proved?

quote:

According to the results of tests printed in Petersons Hunting,and other magazines,the old myth about slower heavier bullets being less effected by striking obstacles is just that,a myth.Actual testing has shown that all bullets are greatly affected,but the faster bullets did just as well or even better than the slower bullets.In fact the two bullets that posted the best results were a 50gr bullet fired from a 22-250 and a 250gr bullet fired from a 338win mag.The 44 magnum was one of the poorest performers and the 30-30 was mid pack.

I could care less what some idiot wrote an article on in Petersen's. No disrespect to you sj but, my findings are that slower heavier bullets do much much better. The small fast projectiles can and will mostly disentegrate if they hit a twig. Then you have to ask yourself why you'd be in the brush w/ such a cart

Back to the main point, every bullet will deflect if it hits an obstacle of any size BUT, if the intended target is very near the obstacle it strikes it will most likely hit very close to the intended target. The heavier bullets are usually tougher and do quite well when shot through light brush. Does that mean that you should shoot through brush? No, but, it happens unintentionally if you do enough brush hunting.

Reloader

I have not had the time to find the article as I have hundreds of magazines and it could take some time.However,here is a related article that is interesting.

http://www.cabelas.com/story-123/warren_brushbuster/102...ster%2522+Myth.shtml

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I've shot at a running deer at very close range...35feet or so
with a 45-70 loaded with 400gr Barnes "originals"

Unfortunatly an 8" diameter tree managed to get between me and the deer.
Fortunatly I center pegged the tree and the bullet went on to hit the deer.. exit the deer and bury it self atleast 8" into a much larger hickory tree.

AllanD

....................

The theory behind the small fast bullet doing well in brush is that it has more of a gyroscopic effect . The faster spin is suppose to stabilize it. Conversley a faster spining bullet has more tendancey to disintegrate from centrifical forces. It may be a fast but strongly constructed bullet would be best ????

Any "test" is probably based on a relatively few samples and the angle of the strike can greatly affect the reuslts.