I know this is a re-hash but humor me.

Its the last day of the season. The season limit is two bucks but only one per day.
You just shot a spike for the freezer when you see a once-in-a-lifetime heavy horned non-typical buck. There's no way anyone will know. Do you obey the letter of the law and pass on the trophy or take him and post date one tag?

If the hunter did take the trophy buck, he/she would have to live with the fact that they cheated to get it. You and I both know there are those that are ok with that, and those that are not.

Personally,, I would shoot, and I could live with it.

I'd let him walk. He made it through most of the season and will probably survive today as well. Let him breed and if he survives the winter, you can try for him next year.

You have your meat for the freezer and you can't eat antlers. If that was the only reason I hunted, I'd hang up the rifle. Enjoy the steaks and roast and remember the big buck you saw. Memories last longer than trophies anyways.

Mac

This is not an ethical question. It is a legal question.

It would be illegal to shoot the other buck. Enough said.

I agree, I would abide by the law and not shoot it.

Its the last day of the season. The season limit is two bucks but only one per day...
You just shot a spike for the freezer when you see a once-in-a-lifetime heavy horned non-typical buck. There's no way anyone will know. Do you obey the letter of the law and pass on the trophy or take him and post date one tag?

First of all, taking that 2nd buck is illegal. But trying to sneak by and "postdating," as you suggested, means putting the date on the tag that is ONE DAY AFTER the season closed (your scenario). That's a big blunder -- and illegal as well in more ways than one. It shows you hunted after the close of the season. It's also illegal in that you would have falsified information.

I'd quickly turn in any poacher (no, they are no longer hunters when they cross that line) trying to get by with such an act.

Well I have to say that you are a lot of polite beggers..
I had expected at least one by now to have come completely undone.
Perhaps I will be so inspired that I will give up my evil ways....

but then again,, how big did you say that buck was??

I'm guessing this is one of those hypothetical bullshit questions, but here goes my $0.02...


It's an easy question for me, since I would never have shot the "scrub" in the first place and would still have the tag(s) free to take the big mature animal.

But that's what I hunt for.

And I am not concerned about stupid laws like that; if you can shoot 2 deer it doesn't matter to me if it's done in one day, one week, one month etc...

We've come a long ways from the days of being able to "just go hunt, "

Now we are required to and some would argue are ethically bound to: shoot withing designated shooting hours, wear designated clothes, use designated weapons, purchase the designated card/ stamp/ license, walk or drive or ride in designated areas,possess designated limits, on and on and on.

Some or many of the rules put upon us are reasonable, some,............

Bikers don't like helmet laws.

I don't like seat belt laws.

A two deer per season limit but a daily bag of one per day?

If you had to think about it, you're not a hunter in my book. I had a "friend" years ago that shot a nice mule deer buck (one buck area), then as he was hiking back to camp for help he crossed a much nicer buck, and killed it. When he got back to camp he wanted the rest of us to skip the last day of the hunt and help him recover both his deer. He couldn't figure out why all four of us declined, and he never was allowed to hunt with us again.

Years later I took an employee on a hunt to Colorado. Same situation practically. Same result. I never viewed the man in the same way, in business or in a social environment, and certainly never allowed him to hunt with me again.

Avoid people that don't respect rules or laws, because that also means they don't respect you.

I used to live in Idaho and during a deer hunt in 1986 I saw an adult mountain lion on a ledge about 150 yards away. Mountain lion season was open at the time and a tag was less than $10. I did not have a tag but I could get one over the counter at a store about 1/2 an hour's drive from where I was hunting. I watched that lion for about 10 minutes until it wandered off.

I went to town the next day and bought a mountain lion tag but I never saw another lion over the next two years that I lived there.

I still think that I did the right thing.

Probably so cause I bet Mt. Lion tastes like sheeet!

Here's a better one: You've just shot 4 wolves. Your wife is in labor. There are 6 more wolves well within shooting range. Do you just shoot 5 more then take your wife to the hospital or finish off the 6th?

Let him walk. There's no big philosopical/ethical debate needed. It's wrong. So your real question is can you live with being a low-bred scum bag?
And have your kids bring their friends in and say, "tell 'em again how you killed this big deer, Daddy."

I'm not saying I would or would not, but what get's me is the double standards many folks have. IE I'm willing to bet most that say harsh things about a man that would infact shoot the second buck are law breakers themselves. Any of you drive ocassionally w/o you seat belt? Ever go over the speed limit? Ever roll through a stop sign and not come to a complete stop? After all, breaking the law is breaking the law!

Double standards

BTW that's not picking on any of you individually, just speaking for the pathetic double standards that many have now days....

Have a Good One,

Reloader

Wow! I really expected to get more caustic comments. I'm impressed. This whole scenario came up as a result of another discussion. For those who read but didn't respond I hope they did some soul searching.

Personally, I doubt I'd shot the first one. Since most venison I'm responsible for goes to family members any more I'm not so quick to pull the trigger. Not a "trophy hunter" per se either but just enjoy the experience - not that I'd pass up a wall hanger.
To whoever it was who pointed it out - yes, I did make a typo concerning "post" as opposed to "pre" obviously everyone got the point though! This was merely to get a little discussion going during a rather slow time. Glad the bunch is so self concious.
So many rules, laws and regulations depend predominently on self control for compliance. Unfortunately enough lack that self control to give us all a black eye on a regular basis. Way too many feel that because they CAN it's ok to do. Too bad indeed.

let me just state I was faced with that a few years back I shot a 3x1 weird looking bastard in a Ca. X zone while dragging this guy to the truck a huge 5x5 28-30" buck walked out of the sage right in front of me 25 yards stood there for a min then walk in front of my truck up the road 300 yards to a loan tree and bedded there I sat in my truck for 2 hours hopping someone that I knew would come along.

SO NO I WOULD NOT SHOOT.

I hunt Mule deer with my old 25-35 Win. I look for a big boy until the last day of season that is within my range of 150 yards, then if I am unsuccessful and usually I am then I shoot the first Spike or forky horn I see for meat..and many times I have seen a larger buck after that, but my tag is filled..If I were in your shoes then I would not shoot the illegal deer.

I grew up in a different time on a big Texas desert ranch and all private land, and we shot deer year around there, that was a result of the big depression and bad times, cattle were sold and deer were to eat..We didn't have many deer as a result of that, then one day deer became worth $50.00 to hunt, and those days came to an end much to the disapointment of my brother and myself! today on the same ranch its not uncommon to see as many as 30 or so bucks in a days hunting...A lesson learned the hard way.

Today on Govt land and in a state (Idaho) where everyone hunts the same places I would never violate any game law, nor would I expect anyone else to do so....I know, nothing like a reformed drunk or smoker!

I would let the trophy pass.
But there was a time when I would not have let it pass.
As my brother says there is nothing than a reformed outlaw.

I had an experience similar to this a few years ago. It was the last day of the season and with about 15 minutes of shooting light left I started walking out of the woods figuring I would have to wait 'til next year. As I walked I kept checking the time on my cell phone so I'd know exactly when it was still legal (our shooting hours are 1/2 hour before sunrise until 1/2 hour after sunset) to shoot.

As I reached the dirt road that my leads to my house I checked and it was 2 minutes after season's end. I looked up from my phone and standing at the edge of the woods was a nice buck that I'd seen a few times at night in the headlights of my Jeep. There isn't a house within a half mile of this spot and I could have dropped him without anyone questioning me about it. I'll admit I thought it over for what seemed like a few minutes but it was probably only a few seconds but passed and am glad I did.

I still haven't gotten a deer nearly as big as the one I could have taken that day but I can still teach my son and daughter the difference between right and wrong without feeling like a hypocrite.

I think bucko's position represents the moral relativism that now pervades our society.

It's like Iyengar said when he witnessed American practiced yoga for the first time(paraphrasing) "Yoga without meditation isn't yoga, it's calisthenics."

Shooting the illegal lifetime buck isn't hunting and sure as hell isn't sporting - it's poaching. Perhaps another way to look at it is this:

suppose the only measure of the man's life upon his passing was the one incident, extreme I agree but play along; how would you prefer to be remembered? the man who stood up for what was principled and right or the man who satiated the temporary needs of his ego at the cost of principle and that which was right.

Before any of us cast too many stones, though, let each of us remember our own faults and failures. I've got my slice of the pie. However, in the end it is doing the right thing when noone is looking that counts the most. That boys, is a compass heading one can follow.

Easy for me, I don't shoot the spike until the last 5 minutes of the last day. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
I think bucko's position represents the moral relativism that now pervades our society.

It's like Iyengar said when he witnessed American practiced yoga for the first time(paraphrasing) "Yoga without meditation isn't yoga, it's calisthenics."

Shooting the illegal lifetime buck isn't hunting and sure as hell isn't sporting - it's poaching. Perhaps another way to look at it is this:

suppose the only measure of the man's life upon his passing was the one incident, extreme I agree but play along; how would you prefer to be remembered? the man who stood up for what was principled and right or the man who satiated the temporary needs of his ego at the cost of principle and that which was right.

Before any of us cast too many stones, though, let each of us remember our own faults and failures. I've got my slice of the pie. However, in the end it is doing the right thing when noone is looking that counts the most. That boys, is a compass heading one can follow.

JLS,
You are dead solid on target. A
"record" book anything is exactly what? So you were in the right place at the right time to be able to kill a big "whatever"?

What differentiates humans from animals is our grasp of right and wrong, moral vs. immoral, ethics vs. lies.

Do the right thing for the right reasons all of the time!!!

I just love you holier than thou types..
If it had been up to a lot of you we would still be speaking with a British accent.

Right is relative,, this is in fact a stupid and oppressive law.
Would I actually shoot the second buck, hell I hunt primarily with a longbow and wooden arrows because I have killed so much shit in my life with a rifle that when your heartbeat fails to go up any longer it is time to change.

So horn hunting is not where I am at, if I get a chance to crawl on my belly through the rainforest in Hawaii to try and stick a homemade arrow through some stinky ass pig or goat my week is made.
Or an "almost" stalk on a Muley spike or a cow elk gets me off as much as the buck on my living room wall did when I took him.

So hell I don't know if I would or not, if I thought it might piss some of you off if I were to say I would, well I damn sure will.

It is amazing to me how few of you even stopped long enough in your righteousness to realize how F'ing stupid this law is.
Why don't we have a discussion on why it would be in place at all, and if it makes no more sense then than it does to me now then I think we have a moral responsibility to violate it.

Take no hunting on Sunday for instance, what is the reason ,, really?? And how many roll over and pull down their pants to have that rammed up their ass??

I wish that this law was in place where I live, I would get a "righteous" rush to get the chance to violate it once a week.

So, this thread is still going....

I personally would be like some who posted above and not put myself in this situation by shooting the smaller buck to begin with. Thus, the trophy would be mine. If I really want some meat, I'll stop by Green Acres Foundation on my way home and pick up some black angus steaks.

Moreover I can see the parallel that Reloader brought up. My guess is that many "ethical, law abiding" hunters wouldn't dream of shooting the second buck, yet they'd violate others laws without hesitation, as if it is second nature, like speeding, rolling through stop signs, turning right on red when a posted sign says not to, etc.

Ultimately, one can easily be labeled as a hypocrit to the core if they wouldn't dream of violating one law (in this case, a game law), as where other laws simply don't count, or can be dismissed, and perhaps, simply b/c "everybody does it."

I can't accept an excuse where someone would argue that, "it's just different, game laws are not on par with traffic laws, or any others for that matter." Violating the law is just that, no matter what it applies to.

Also reminds me of a thread some time back where someone's daughter asked an excellent question about pdog shooting or any other varmint hunting and how shot placement "mattered" on big game, but that it was "ok" to let the varmints suffer until dead, from poor shot placement. After all, they are living creatures too, but some hunters didn't care if the rodents/yotes had a quick kill like a deer or elk or bear.

Put some real money in the game, especially if it's theirs, and many of these, "Hell no, I'd never do that" types will do almost anything.....seen it too many times.....that's why there are so many lawyers these days.

I thought this was an exercise in ethics using the question as an entry point into the discussion?

Bucko, I don't think it makes one "holier than thou" to take a moral position and stick to it. aftrall, aren't morals only tested in the face of temptation? All I said was given the facts of the hypo above, if given a two deer season limit and one per day, if you shoot the second deer you're a low life poacher. I stand by that.

Morality is not relative; rather it is the glue that binds a group into a cohesive whole. The second you start bending the rules to your own tastes we are in the realm of moral relativism and breakdown is inevitable.

For what it's worth, shouldn't we all keep in mind this is a hypothetical scenario, illuminating as it is?

And by the way, if you don't like the law as it stands, the beauty of our morality-based cultural system enables you to lobby for its change.

I don't poach. There's no reason for me to. In addition to usually hunting or fishing with the local wildlife agency officials and therefore not being able to poach because they won't let me, game and fish are plentiful in Dillingham as are opportunities to take them so a sportsman can abide by every Fish and Game regulation and fill a freezer.

Having said that, we all know there is a degree of severity in violating the law. In Dillingham, if one were to shoot 6 cow moose, 14 brown bears, a bald eagle and bomb a salmon stream, then they probably well could be labeled a "Low life poacher," and of course if caught and convicted, the penalty would be appropriately harsh.

If one were to shoot two minutes after "Shooting time," not wear their required Blaze orange, use an illegal weapon or in this case take a deer within their legally allowed annual posession limit, does that really earn them the same vitriol we'd apply to a salmon stream bomber?

Morality IS relative, just as right is relative.

Are you a Christian? I am not although I do believe in a God.
Do you have Christian based morals and a sense of right?
I am not saying that you are wrong, although it appears that you are saying that I am.

Right is most definately relative to a nonconformist.
And as I said earlier, if we had all been conformists we would not be who we are today.

One word. BANG!!!

Let's add an equivalent scenario that doesn't involve deer. Instead, let's look at the limits for avian critters, such as waterfowl, doves, quail, etc.

In most states, they list a DAILY and a separate total possesion limit, the latter normally double the daily limit.

So for those here who have no problem killing the second deer on the same day when it is illegal to do so according to the law/rule in place, is it thus also okay to kill a double daily limit of whatever in ONE day as long as you stay within the total possession limit?

IOW, if the daily dove limit is 10 and the possession limit is 20, killing the latter in one day is acceptable? -TONY

Spoken like a Texan.

Morality is not realtive to the group who pariticipates in it. That is where you are wrong. The group creates the system and the members live by it. If it's realtive, then by definition there is no group.

It seems you want both sides and the middle, bucko. You want morality to be relative to your personal hunting agenda but I'll bet dimes to dollars when you are morally wronged and it trips into legally wrong you'll run as fast as you can to the local sheriff for help.

So, it seems your morality is up to you when it suits you if the above example and your claim to action reflects your beliefs yet you also depend upon the morality of others not to harm you.

And as far as the gentleman up in Alaska goes, yes, shooting two minutes after closing is immoral and illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Morality IS relative, just as right is relative.

So, let me see if I understand. We each get to decide what is right and moral.

So what if I decide that you have more money than I, and that's not fair/right. So it must, then be ok for me to rob you?

And your wife is prettier than mine so it must be ok for me to....well you get the picture.

I am not siding with Bucko, but I hate an argument based on flaud logic. Robbery is illegal, and so is rape.

Lead me not into temptation . . .

Slim:

Sorry you hate it, but IMO it's not flawed logic.

Bucko said

quote:

Right is relative,, this is in fact a stupid and oppressive law

So apparently he gets to decide what laws are worthy of following.

Ergo, the fact that a given behavior is not legal would be of no consequence to him.

Now this conversation is finally getting interesting..
However jsl you are starting to panic and just bordering on defending your position through insults and assumptions.
Which is what I have always noticed morally anal people to revert to when faced with opposition to their beliefs.

And Olarmy your questions are very simple to answer, I would simply shoot your dumb ass.

quote:

And Olarmy your questions are very simple to answer, I would simply shoot your dumb ass.

you just validated jsl's hypothesis