Last weekend I was on a jet boat on the Snake river and the boat guide is an avid hunter and he has a wonderfual Rem 700 Sendero set up with a Nightforce scope. The caliber was a 300 Ultra and he has hunted Hells Canyon for most of his life.

A benchrest shoot got him onto shooting long range and he has claimed to shoot Elk and Deer out to 1000yards and beyond, even a 340 class bull last year, saw the pictures.

His Sendero was basically a single shot because the cartridges he loaded were kissing the lands so that VLD was giving up no space in that action.

I know there are a lot of people that shoot Matchkings at animals but this is the first with the Berger VLD's? Any one else do this or have heard of it?

quote:

A benchrest shoot got him onto shooting long range and he has claimed to shoot Elk and Deer out to 1000yards and beyond, even a 340 class bull last year, saw the pictures.

Don't know much about the guides where you live, but if this guy was a guide in Wyoming and told me this I would tell him he is full of shit!

MG

Sorry, "Benchrest Shooter". Maybe that will clear something up.

Point taken, thats why I put this up but I hope there are some other opinions.

I wouldn't be using a match grade bullet for shooting at a big game animal. Varmits sure, but not on anything else.

MG

This does not sound too far out of the ordinary. Long range shot, quality long range bullet, big cartridge, good scope, some practice. Critters don't much care what bullet kills them, put the bullet in the "kill me" spot and they die.

There has been talk that the Bergers have a pretty thin jacket as compared to other match bullets but there are folks using them on critter none-the-less.

Just give Berger a call and ask them about there VLD line of bullets for hunting. Needless to say I will be switching to them next fall. There bullet tech said they act just like most plain old soft point bullets and they do expand very well. He also mentioned lots of people are starting to use them with great sucess. As for a guy shooting Elk at 1000 yards or more I can believe it but most people on this site are set in the old school ways of doing things.

I'm sure that I have read somewhere on this forum that Saeed used MatchKings in some of his African loads to kill game. What say you Saeed about using match bullets as game killers?

We are talking about Berger VLD's not Matchkings and like I said if you have any doubts call Berger bullets (714) 447-5456 and ask for a bullet tech or Walt himself. That is what I did.

Hello,
There is a show on The Men's Channel called "THE BEST OF THE WEST". The host's name is John Burns and he is a custon rifle maker from northern Wyoming. He and his team make some very long shots, (750yds+) on western big game regularly with a cartridge similar to a 7STW using Berger bullets. They have had great results with their performance on game and I have seen pics. of some recovered bullets. They stress practice, practice, practice and it's clear they practice what they preach.
They prefer the high shoulder shot so they anchor the animal on the spot. I'm sure they wouldn't use that bullet placement with a bullet they didn't trust.
Elk Country

Good to know that Berger VLDs can be put to work on game. As to extreme long-range shots at game, I am just an old fudd who believes closer is better, and would rather go home without an elk rather than snipe one at 1,000 yards. But to each his own.

That's a J-4 jacket, very thin. Deer at long range maybe, but elk? There's a review over at Midway however (.308 190 gr moly IIRC)that says it's hell on feral hogs and some guys on the Long Range Hunting forum are starting to use it. I'll pass using on these myself, but I do like reading first hand reports about bullets that work.

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Pacella:
Hello,
There is a show on The Men's Channel called "THE BEST OF THE WEST". The host's name is John Burns and he is a custon rifle maker from northern Wyoming. He and his team make some very long shots, (750yds+) on western big game regularly with a cartridge similar to a 7STW using Berger bullets. They have had great results with their performance on game and I have seen pics. of some recovered bullets. They stress practice, practice, practice and it's clear they practice what they preach.
They prefer the high shoulder shot so they anchor the animal on the spot. I'm sure they wouldn't use that bullet placement with a bullet they didn't trust.
Elk Country

You beat me to it. I've also talked with Berger and their position on using their bullets is, for the most part, based on John Burns' feedback. I noticed that Berger is now Mr. Burns' sponsor, one of them anyway.

This whole topic of using match quality bullets on game will, IMO, always be unsettled. There are pros and cons. There are those hunters/shooters that certainly use match quality bullets because their goal is long range hunting (I'm not going to get into an argument whether or not it is truly "hunting" or not). These bullets have better BCs, and are for the most part, more accurate.

Bergers do and will continue to flatten animals as large as elk, given the right situation. My problem with it is the same old arguement...what happens when that bull elk steps out at 60 yards? I'm not so confident with that match grade bullet now, especially at 3000+ fps.

Ultimately, and undeniably, the Berger will kill just fine, so long as the range is adequate enough not to fragment the bullet on impact.

But I like TSX bullets.

I've tested SMK @ 2000fps & 2800fps impact vel. & they are very erratic. This comes up all of the time & there are guys that do it, just not me. Too manay variables occur when hunting to shoot @ an animal @ 600yds+. Wind, animlal movement even being sure of the animals presentation, then factor in what the bullet will or will not do @ that impact vel. I wouldn't cry but I'ld have to see it done from field positions under field conditions.

My thought on it is the 30cal 210gr VLD is just that a 210gr bullet. I don't care if the bull is at 20ft or 1000 yards a 210gr bullet is going to get the job done. How can it be any worse then using cheap soft point bullets that people have been using for 50 years or more? This year when I went elk hunting and talking to people lots of guys just use the cheap 12 dollar a box Federal or Winchester bullets. Those have soft jackets to but you never seen anyone on here saying that people should not use them. Just like some claim a ballistic tip is not a good hunting bullet. I really want to have someone prove to me that a 180gr B-tip out of my 300win will not kill an elk or bust its shoulder. I would shoot one at 2ft from the muzzle in the shoulder with that bullet because I know it would bust through and kill it. Then you hear about people that claim they shot a bull elk in the shoulder at 300 yards and the bullet just blew up and the elk got away. Thats when I call

I had an older friend that use to talk to Dan Lilja some. He had several benchrest rifles with Lilja barrels. Some of his family members still have the ones that are left, the others got burnt up in a housefire.
Anyway he said Dan was talking about hunting long range with SMK's I dont remember if he meant Dan hunting long range or people that Dan knew or both. My friend asked him if he thought that using the SMK's was a good idea.
He said Dan's response was "that the first order of business was to hit it". He said a bullet does you no good if you cant hit what you are shooting at. Makes perfect sense.

I got in a stage of wanting to be able to shoot things long range like that, but Im out of it now though.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
My thought on it is the 30cal 210gr VLD is just that a 210gr bullet. I don't care if the bull is at 20ft or 1000 yards a 210gr bullet is going to get the job done.

How do you know?

If any of you have seen Johns new DVD he has out there is a segment of show that he covers testing the 168 Berger VLD. He shoots through wet newspaper and cow bones. At 15 yards the bullet penatrated a cow shoulder bone and kept going a bit further. At 750 the bullet again penatrated through the bone and kept on going. From what I have seen I wouldent be scared to shoot a deer or elk with one.

Big-un

How do I know? Because a sharp rock on a pointy stick did it for thousands of years. A bullet with a SD of .316 leaving my muzzle at 2903fps would even kill Mr Brown Bear On a broadside shot through the lungs. If you have any doubts I have an Elk farm about 40 miles from me we could pick the biggest bull out and I can walk 20ft from him and shoot him for you. If he doesn't die from the first shot you can have my rifle. Its a Sako TRG-S with a 6-24 Burris Sig on it. If he does die you pay for the elk and I get to keep him. I love eating Elk and you can even have the rack. They only want $10,000 for the herd bull. Oh and the game warden I talked with in Wyoming this year do you want to know what he uses for Elk? A 25/06 with a 100gr soft point. He said it works everytime. He said this year he shot his cow close to 300 yards. One shot through the lungs and it went about 50 yards and died.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
I got in a stage of wanting to be able to shoot things long range like that, but Im out of it now though.

Yep, me too! I love hunting (especially stalking) far too much to shoot at long range....coyotes excepted!

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
If you have any doubts I have an Elk farm about 40 miles from me we could pick the biggest bull out and I can walk 20ft from him and shoot him for you. If he doesn't die from the first shot you can have my rifle.

No thanks. Penned animals have a differnt state of mind than wild animals. No adrenaline spikes in those penned up couch potatoes.

He'd probably fall right over. That is, if the bullet didn't pencil through or shatter on impact. That would be my concern, thus, I still have doubts. But I take it from your response, that you base you statements on assumption instead of accounts/experience. That is ok with me.

Regarding the 25.06 for elk. I know what you mean. I met a guy named Carl in Colorado that used his with btips on an elk. Died for him but took 4 rounds to do it. Distance was less than 100. He found all of the jackets and lead fragments. Said he couldn't understand why it didn't fall right there.

The WY warden(s) I spoke with in Casper all use 270s, most with 160 partitions for all WY hunting.

Doc I have not tried the 210 on elk but there are guys I have talked to that have and have had good results. I also know guys using matchkings on Elk with great results deer also and one that I have talked to is a bullet tech for sierra. I have also seen what John burns has used on his show and I have also talked with Walt Berger himself. I really do not see Berger bullets telling a customer to go use there bullet if they felt it would not work. Sierra puts a statement out not to use there bullets but guys use them anyway with good luck and even some of there bullet techs use them as well. As for the comment about Elk in the pen not having any adrenaline. You will find most animals 300 yards or more do not either when you shoot them from a distance and are not seen or heard. I have had deer after being hit stop then just start walking again then fall over. I am not talking 1000 yards either I am talking under 400 yards I have had this happen. I also know you are getting an Allen mag does this mean you are not going to shoot any wildcat bullets in it? Because if you are he is going to be using matchking jackets for the most part.

I know plenty of shooters use match grade bullets for game. I have had 100% success with the SMK myself but in limited numbers.

Have any of the guys you know popped something at less than 100 yards with a SMK or Berger? Just interested in outcomes.

I already have an Allen mag!! Nice too. Yep, I'm shooting the Wildcat bullet in it, but I have not done any testing yet. We'll see what it'll do this fall, and I can't wait.

Well I just shot a yote around 90 yards or so with a 200SMK does that count? Bullet made a hole the size of a nickel going in and out. Muzzle velocity average is 2917fps. I have also shot some whitetail deer with my 220 swift and a 52gr SMK any where from 20 yards to 400 yards. That bullet worked well. I mostly use Nolser Ballistic Tips the bullet that cannot kill anything according to some. Out of the 80 some deer I have killed with a rifle I would say 50 or more were shot using B-Tips. Now as for others I have talked to yes lots have shot Elk or deer around 100 yards or less. You do not always get a long shot when you are hunting. Tell you what I will do a test this weekend weather permiting. I will shoot through 2 wet phone books then 2inch's of plywood and how ever many phone books it takes to stop the bullet after that. I will use the 210 Berger in the test. I will shoot it at 20 yards then 500 yards and we will see what happens. As long as I am testing I will test the 220 SMK as well. Anyone have any input on the test? I will shoot 3 bullets of each one. Hell while I am at it I might as well shoot some 200gr Accubonds. Oh and Doc I think you will find that the TSX will give you a headache when you start getting out past 500 yards with the allen mag. From what I found in my rifle's anyway was to many flyers. Infact I have a couple of groups that shot in the .2's then brought them out to 300 yards and the group was 3 to 4 inches. I have a feeling you will be shooting match bullet or Accubonds real soon.

Dakor- Good idea!! I'll send you all my old phone books.

I already shoot ABs.

If you fellows are shooting phone books you might consider using 5 gallon nylon buckets instead like you can get at home depot. The phone books are seldom wet enough to correlate to the real world. They have to be really wet!



The nylon 5 gallon buckets correlate to big game by 90-95% for retained weight and expansion based on alot of bullets recovered in .223, .308, .338, 375, 416 and 458.

Shooting coyotes, deer, IWBA calibrated gelatin and water buckets indicates that the SMK and VLD's quit expanding around 2300-2400 fps. So a .223 or .308 will blow up at close range but not open at all at 150-200 yards w most calibers.

After that they turn in to a FMJ spitzer. Ive seen some twist or bend a little bit at 150 -200 yards but they usually either blow up or dont do anything at all.

I would much rather have a premium bonded bullet like the North Forks (pictured) out to 500 yards which will take in 95% of anyones hunting.



I realize some rifle/scope/stock/ammo combos are accurate beyond that and a spine or shoulder shot w a FMJ or HPBT at that range may be lethal. I just worry about the gut, neck, leg and rib shots youve never seen on a DVD or VHS tape advertising this sort of canyon shooting.

I have a 900 yard range on my ranch and have shot my share of 190-240 grain SMK's, and alot of small caliber VLD's and I will take a premium bonded bullet over any of them for hunting.

Andy

I tested the some bullets today at 15 yards and here is what the results are. Here is a pick of the test media which consisted of wet cabelas catalogs that were soaked in water for one hour before the test. Also there are 2 pieces of 3/4inch plywood and at the back a log incase the bullets really decided to go far.


Next here is front pic of the bullets fired. The one on the left is a 200 Accubond leaving the muzzle at 2960fps and the next two are Berger 210 VLD's leaving the muzzle at 2903fps.

Here is a pic of the bullets from the back.

The Accubond weighed in at 129.7gr the Berger in the Middle weighed in at 69.2gr and the last Berger on the right weighed 96.9gr. All bullets made it to the same catalog before they stopped. I also fired a 200gr SMK and a 220gr SMK and I could not find anything left of them. The 200 SMK was leaving the muzzle at 2917fps and the 220 SMK was leaving the muzzle at 2864fps. They did how ever make it all the way until about two catalogs infront of where the Berger's and Accubond stopped. All bullets easily would have killed and Elk at this range. Even though the Bergers do not look pretty like most like on this site. They did a good job and left a big wound channel. All bullets opened up before hitting the plywood after going through two catalogs. Here is a pic below showing how many catalogs the Bergers and Accubond went through before stopping. The 5 gallon bucket is in the pic for reference.

As you can see the bullets made it pretty far after going through a bunch of cabelas catalogs and 2 pieces of plywood. All from the distance of 15 yards. I will do the 500 yard test next week but we all know that the farther away the bullet is the better it is going to perform to a certain point.

Dakor,

While the rest of us were hitting the reply button I see you went outside and got your hands dirty. Way to go man.

The 5 gallon bucket sI have been using are about 15 inches tall. If yours in picture is similar the bullets are only going 7-8 inches or so deep???

I think accubonds do 16-18 inches, maybe even 24 inches, so you may want to soak the catalogs alot longer and maybe use more of them.

Wood and paper are very hard on a bullet and may open one up that would not normally, or tear up a good one.

A BTHP should go about 11 inches at close range and about three feet at long range. Play around with your test box until it correlates to same penetration and expansion as a game animal.

Somewhere I have the protocol for using newspaper instead of gelatin from the IWBA, but as I recall the catalogs should double is size they are so wet and when you take them out of water, lay a plyboard on them and press excess water out. It should really be flowing out of the catalogs.

I would hesitate to shoot an elk w a bullet that only had 11 inches penetration, and would sure think twice about using one that had 7-8 inches.

I saw my father in law shoot a 6 x 6 with his 30-06, 180 nosler partition (24 inches penetration), it shattered on quartering front shoulder, and left a tiny hole through upper lung. Elk was three legged lame but still went several miles in heavy timber before catching up w him.

I suppose a VLD would work if you hit heart and no leg bone, but so would a 22-250 which has similar penetration.

I am curious what you find at 500 yards. thanks for the effort.

Andy

It seems your test pretty much tells you that you don't want to use a target bullet for game shooting. 10" of penetration is not enough if you have any kind of angled shot, IMO. I think you'll find @ 500yds the bullet will penetrate more but not expand much. JMO exp. testing 168grSMK @ 2700fps & 2000fps impact.
BTW, wet catalogs or glossy paper are not quite as foregiving as newsprint or phone books. Neither give real world penetration data, just comparison of bullets. Expansion is pretty much what I have seen in tissue, but penetration is about 1/2-2/3 of what you get in tissue.
Andy, I find it easier & cheaper to use the wet phone books (free). You can shoot 2-3 test in one sitting if you place the bullets carefully. It's easy to soak them well in a galv. tub. I put them in cardboard boxes that copy paper comes in. They are 18" long, put 2 back to back & fire away.

Well the catalogs were soaked infact they swelled up so much I had a hell of a time getting them back out of the bucket. As for penetration 10inch's would be about right but you have to remember this is at 15 yards. My 375 H&H would have a hard time hitting anymore then 17inch's at this range with a 300gr bullet. I have done this test with it before and did not get much more then 17 with a 300gr sierra or 260 accubonds. I set this test up as if a person shot an Elk through the shoulder at this range that is why I put 2 catalogs infront of the plywood. In a real world test I would say the bullets would have come close to exiting the animal. Fred both the Berger and Accubond went into the same catalog before stopping so you are saying a 200 AB is not a good Elk bullet? I would be willing to bet if I used a 200gr TSX in the same test it would not go any farther. Just because of the simple reason the distance from the muzzle to the target. I mean you have to admit 15 yards is pretty close. I will test them at 500 yards hopefully this weekend and I could round up a bunch of news paper and try shoot through that. I still think either bullet would have done the job on any Elk. Catalogs are a lot tougher then flesh.

No dakor, I'm saying your test is a bit flawed as most bullets come apart @ IV of 2900fps or more. But you have very little of the VLD left & a lot more of the NAB, so I would pick the NAB based on your test. Penetration in wet paper or wood or whatever do not correlate to penetration in game (after all, high speed .224 will penetrate steel but usually not an animals shoulder). That's why I test all of my hunting bullets @ reasonable impact speeds to see if they are going to hold up or not expand much, etc. I don't trust a bullet that comes apart to do the job on a chance close shot. For longer range, where the bullet slows to under 2600fps or so, another matter all together. SMK have proven to me they are too erratic to use as hunting bullets, close or far. My choice & others have there's. The NAB is every bit as accurate in most rifles & a better choice than a match bullet because it's designed to expand & does a good job of staying together, again IMO.