Last night I walked in and my wife was flipping thru the channels on the TV and stopped it on some hunting show...

IN it was Ron Spomer, and he was hunting bucks in Arkansas...

The shows sponsor was Winchester, so he had this Model 70, with the camo synthetic stock and of course chambered for the 300 WSM...

Then they have this little breakout where he is sitting at a shooting bench with some VP from the marketing dept of Winchester...

And he is explaining this new bullet, that Winchester has released.. ( I regretfully forget the name, but I was laughing too hard to try and remember it)....

so they are throwing out all of this info about what a 'Good looking bullet' it is...and that the Winchester guy is explaining that it draws from Fail Safe Technology, and the Winchester AccuBond Technology, and the Winchester Partition Gold Technology.. with this transparent plastic polymer tip, with inbedded red glowing "thing" inside it.. ( looked like they drew upon Mood Ring technology on that one to me...)..

Spomer adds his last little tid bit, " Nice looking Box too...( sorry I am on the floor laughing too hard here, anyone ever bought ammo based on " a good looking box"????

so Spomer goes thru all of his talking to the audience in this whispering voice, and then keeps saying he doesn't understand why the bucks keep moving away...

So finally with the 'ever present' last 10 minutes of legal shooting time of the last day of the season ( don't they always do that on these shows??).. he takes a shot at this "big buck" at whatever yardage, ( he doesn't say, for once)... the camera shows this buck hit, with this fancy new " do all" bullet from Winchester...in a 300 WSM...

This deer crumbles like it's left shoulder has been damaged, but beyond that, it starts running in a circle.. and then he just takes off!!!..

The camera fades and then it shows Spomer in the dark, with this buck laying on the ground...

My wife thought it was so stupid and hokey, she couldn't stop laughing...

My response to her was, if she thought it was funny, then it was about 10 times funnier to someone who actually hunts...

I normally don't watch these things, and this one reminded me of why....

that deer took off like a scalded pig, and was limping like he had been shot by a 22... and this was not no Bang Flop scenario by a long shot.. I really bet Spomer had to track this thing for miles...

And so just what does a "super premium" bullet in a trendy Short Magnum supposed to do for me???

Heck, I think the average hunter could have done better with a 223 and a 50 grain Varmint bullet...which is not deer medicine.. but certainly is as lethal if not moreso, than Spomer was with a new trendy premium bullet in a Magnum, to include a trendy Short Mag.....

Personally a 300 Savage would have done a better job, with a 150 grain untrendy, SP...

Gidday Seafire,

Yep mate they give you a laugh don't they.

It is a great way to make a truck load of cash. You just need to tell the suckers that what they are already using won't work anymore but you have the answer. Then charge them twice the price for basically what they were originally using but in a different box.

Money for jam.

A fool and his money are easily parted.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

If it(marketing technique) didn't work they wouldn't do it.
The bullet they are refering to is a good design with lots of technology behind it BUT if it doesn't hit where it is aimed might as well be the varmint bullet you talked about.
How many fishing lures are designed to catch fish verses fisherman???

Perry

Beats watching Sports any day. The bullet id a XP3 and I do thing they missed the boat on this one at least they are moving forward. But I guess the Model T got us around to

Seafire,

I had quite the laugh the other day as well. I flipped the tv onto a hunting show and this guy was explaining how Carbon arrows are not good to use for hunting because they often explode into tiny particles of carbon in the meat of the animal

It was quite funny. Sad thing is alot of folks will take what these idiots say as hard facts

Reloader

Reloader,
You are right about some people taking everything they hear on a hunting show as fact. Some of the guys on these shows dont make a lick of sense.

Seafire,
I also saw the show with Spoomer...i thought it was kinda gay the way they said the bullet and box of ammo were "good looking".

Seafire,

You and I will not buy into their marketing hype but some newbies will, and maybe some who have $$$ burning a hole in their pocket. I didn't see the show as I don't get cable\satellite TV. But I laugh to myself everytime I see a macho hunting product marketed in the same fashion as women's hair care stuff.

hey seafire--don't knock the boxes, they bring big bucks from collectors. was at an auction some time last month and witnessed an old shotgun ammo box which sold for $160.00. 2 piece cardboard.

Just one more anecdote that verifies that "premium" bullets are not needed for whitetails (and similar sized game) and can indeed be less effective than "old-fashioned" cup-and-core bullets.

But I wouldn't buy any bullet unless the box was attractive!

The only reason to use a premium bullet on a whitetail is the reason I sometimes do. That is because I have them loaded, the rifle is sighted in perfectly and I don't want to tinker with it after a hunt for larger game. I tend to work up to one load per rifle and use that only, so may use a premium for whitetail. If I use them I try to hit bone, if not, they will run 50 yards or so, no big deal. You just have to realize that most of the guys on these shows are not sophisticated rifle nuts or reloaders, they are in show biz and I just ignore the obvious promos they throw in. You can't blame them for helping their advertisers, but it is allowed to laugh at them.

Just goes to show that the old adage "Looks can kill" is true.
What a gaggle of maroons.
Bear in Fairbanks

I have often laughed at the silly a$$ stuff on the hunting shows, but for me they still beat most of the crap on the boob tube. What I like the best are the "wild" animals some of these guys are "sneaking" up on... walking out in plain sight! Now, what wild ranch raised cattle are you hunting? If the elk here in CO were as dumb (tame) as those depicted now and then, they'd all be dead. As for "premium" bullets, I use them in my smaller, faster, magnum rifles so they will hold together and not ruin so much meat.

Yeah, I find it very hard to watch these so called hunting shows on TV. Reminds me of what a friend related to me and he even showed the tape to me.
He was working for Remington at the time and he was supposed to be the first person to use the .300 Ultra on game. A hunt was booked in Canada so off they went. The tape showed several nice bucks and more does, but the first day he didn't get a shot. Next morning he was on the stand and a nice buck came within range, so the announcer said, and my friend confirmed he was maybe 75 yards away. One shot from the powerful .300 Ultra and the deer was dead right there, with everyone gathering around oohing and ahhing the killing power of it. End of story? Not quite! Seems the baggage had been delayed and it was the next day before the new rifle arrived and the deer was shot with a borrowed, garden variety, old .30'06. :-)

The way I look at "Premium" bullets is, just technology trying to compensate for poor shooting.
Grizz

quote:

One shot from the powerful .300 Ultra and the deer was dead right there, with everyone gathering around oohing and ahhing the killing power of it. End of story? Not quite! Seems the baggage had been delayed and it was the next day before the new rifle arrived and the deer was shot with a borrowed, garden variety, old .30'06. :-)

That's impossible. Since deer have learned of the advent of the more powerful magnums, they very often refuse to die, much less fall over on the spot, from gunshots with ordinary calibers like a .30-06. The same is true of premium bullets. Some poor, uninformed yokel who goes out with and .270 and a box of Power Points doesn't have a prayer of killing a deer these days, especially sighting on it with some ordinary 4x scope.

It takes a lot of sophisticated technology (and money) to keep up with these whitetails, you know.

quote:

What I like the best are the "wild" animals some of these guys are "sneaking" up on... walking out in plain sight!

I hear Ya!!!!

It just cracks me up to see these guys when the game is near. They talk loud without a whisper and the game never spooks!!!! Where I've bow hunted if your bow so much as makes a squeek when you draw the game will spook let alone talk to your buddy!

Just last night I was watching some guy on the OD channel trying to get an antelope. The buck got to about 35 yards and he starts talking loudly about how he's going to shoot him and he needs to turn alittle, then the buck bolts and runs. The guy says "somethin' spooked him"


Reloader

Reloader I watched that program as well. It was amazing how those antelope would look straight into the camera then mysteriously spook. What's wrong with those amimals???

My comment on premium bullets needs to be clarified..

everyone keeps needing to come up with a better mouse trap and then it is marketed as the latest thing since sliced bread...

I don't think for any non magnum under 30 caliber you really need what is considered a premium bullet...

However, if you do, a good old partition or Barnes seem to do the job.. NOT knocking those that want a piece of the pie, but if it isn't from Nosler or Barnes.. I don't see the need..

and even then, the pricing keeps me shooting the more traditional bullets, that have worked fine for 50 plus years in most instances...

I don't post here much at all. Love reading the stories and posts - and love the daydreaming. Still, this topic does deserve just a bit of conversation.

Personally, I think the term "Premium" is a misnomer. Perhaps a better term is "Specialty Bullet". The goal is to match the bullet to the type of game and environment. The reality is that a "premium" bullet simply skews the odds a little bit in your favor under less than ideal circumstances compared to "conventional" bullets.

One wouldn't hunt an Deer with a Sierra MATCH King simply because the bullet wouldn't likely hold together and provide enough penetration. A GAME King has a thicker jacket and therefore can provide the penetration and controlled expansion necessary to anchor prey effectively.

But how would that same GKing perform on a shoulder shot elk? It might not have stout enough construction to hold together effectively enough and provde adequate penetration on tough game.

End the so-called "Premium" bullet. Again, I prefer "specialty bullet". A heavier jacketed A-frame bullet like a Partition or A-frame is designed to penetrate and expand through the vitals.

And for seriously dangerous game, a full solid FMJ can be the answer.

Premium bullets have their place in hunting, but they aren't the end all be all. I wouldn't go fishing for Big-Eye Tuna with a #12 treble hook. And by the same token I wouldn't go after trout with a 2-0 Owner hook.

I digress, I think we all know this.

Still, I do love the way Speer packages their GrandSlams... Yep, that plastic box sure makes the killing faster!

I think the term "Premium" refers to the price as much as to the construction of the bullet.

I've been completely satisfied with .30 cal 180 gr Nosler Partitions for alot of elk over the past 30-40 years. And one of my favorite loads for Mule Deer, Pronghorns and Big Horn Sheep in my .257 AI is the Hornady 120 gr Hollow Point. On my first trip to South Africa most of the 9 animals I took were one shot kills with 140 gr Ballistic Tips in my 7mm Rem Mag. This included Kudu, Gemsbok, and Blue Wildebeest.

That said, on my last trip to Africa, I loaded 300 gr TSX's for my .375 RUM and 160 gr Accubonds for my 7mm Rem Mag. Both performed superbly. This September I'll be using 260 gr Accubonds in my .375 RUM in the Northern and Eastern Cape. I'm also bringing a few 300 gr Hornady FMJ's in case I need to stop a charging Grysbuck.

When I watch hunting shows, I always imagine that Zeb has another drugged up buck on the back of the truck off camera. If you miss, another one just staggers into the frame.

My Elk guide said they booked 150 more hunters after appearing on one of the bigger shows. Gave away a 6X6, but grossed another what, $500,000? So, evidently you guys are picking up the phone after the show.

I am probably guilty of trying too many premium munitions. I often try a box on one of my rifles to see if I can improve accuracy. Some of my rifles are persnickety about their pills. And I shoot up a box of premo kinda like "barrel candy". But if I catch wind of a bullet failing it's mission, it gets axed.

If I was a newbie, and I was buying a box of deer ammo, that after sight in, would last me another 10 years, I might also choose premium, since the extra $10 would't be much more. Which one would I choose? Probably the coolest looking box.
Young people tastes are so different than my own, I have no clue what sort of box decoration would draw them in the most. Thank God that's not my job either. But Federal seems to be trying to figure it out.

It's funny this topic should come up, as I just re-read a great article by Craig Boddington in G&A several months back. He goes on to some length that the super-fantastic-turbo-polymer bullets popular today do not necessarily kill any better (or even as well) as the plain jane rounds of yesterday. I could not agree with him more. I'd like to see what would've happened if the deer were shot with a Hornaday soft point, Sierra game king, etc. It probably wouldn't have looked as pretty when recovered, but I bet it would have done a better job of bringing down the game.

Just another little lesson that more expensive and higher tech are NOT always better.

The reason i use NP's (nosler partitions) for almost all of my hunting is, i work up one load for each rifle and that's all "that" rifle gets fed from then on. That means i could use that rifle for anything from moose to white tails to ??, and i want something that i can depend on to work forsure on moose.

For instance, the rifle in the pict. gets nothing but 200 NP's... (8mm)

DM

This again proofs that in electronic media it is not the facts that create the impression (or buying urge) but the way the sell it. Unfortunately, the same applies to politics.

I am also a firm believer in Nosler partitions until .30 caliber, for 8 mm and larger it really does not matter. Bullet placement and knowing one's own limits is much more important.

Premium hunting bullets have really made smaller caliber cartridges much more effective. A good example is the .243 win and even the 22-250 and other 22 caliber cartridges. Put a 55gr TSX in a 22 cartridge and it will perform much better than the typical varmint bullets. The 85gr TSX in a .243 is pure hell on wheels, so they do have a place, even for whitetails.

Like all hunting the most important aspect is shot placement first, then bullet construction, and not enought emphasis is placed on this simple concept. I like all these new wonder bullets, do i use em all? of course not, but at least the manufacturers are trying different things and maybe they will come out with the perfect bullet some day.

quote:

I am also a firm believer in Nosler partitions until .30 caliber, for 8 mm and larger it really does not matter. Bullet placement and knowing one's own limits is much more important.

You obviously have NEVER had to crawl through the alders looking for a wounded brown bear, cleaning up someone elses mess.... If you did, your opinion would be different.

DM

Seafire/B17G: I missed that show but hope to catch it!
It also sounds like the shooter was attempting one of "GORGE's" patented "shoulder shots"!!!
If that Hunter had taken the time to place the bullet properly (no matter how fancy a box it came in - SHEESH!) into the heart/lung area that Deer would most likely have died right there LONG before sundown!
I have seen so many HORRIBLE scenarios on these Hunting shows that I am considering cancelling all three of them from my TV menu!
I think one of the worst things I have seen recently was two nimrods sitting in an elevated shooting platform in Texas! It was weird to me as the trees in FRONT of the blind for 200 yards all appeared to have shed ALL their leaves and the trees behind the platform blind had lush foilage! I thought well they must have set up on a natural transition line form one type tree to another!
NO!
In due course the Hunters mention to each other how good a job the high fence ranch manager had done "DEFOLIATING" the trees so they could see the Deer better that were coming into the corn that had been strewn about on the ground as BAIT!
Now if I gotta defoliate the trees and put out bait to get a shot at a Deer inside a high fence - then fuck it - I would rather play GOLF!
And I hate Golf!
Another of my favorites was the "guide" who was trying to get a nimrod his first Antelope! Well the "guide" was real comfy driving about "the lease" in a big 4X4 in his light blue levi pants, white T-shirt with a white baseball cap and tennis shoes! The Hunter at least had boots and woodland camo clothes and hat for his desert Hunt!
Come time to sneak up closer to some Antelope and sure enough once the guide gets out of the 4X4 and tries to sneak across a flat and open plain the Antelope in question "boogey" post haste!
I wonder if it had to do with the amazingly glaring light colors the "guide" was wearing?
I will keep my eye out for the "mood ring" bullet episode - sounds like a hoot!
It takes all kinds I guess.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
The reason i use NP's (nosler partitions) for almost all of my hunting is, i work up one load for each rifle and that's all "that" rifle gets fed from then on. That means i could use that rifle for anything from moose to white tails to ??, and i want something that i can depend on to work forsure on moose.

For instance, the rifle in the pict. gets nothing but 200 NP's... (8mm)

DM

DM. Here's a little trick that has worked for me in both the 30-06 and .300 Win. Mag. I worked up my loads using the Siera 180 gr. Pro-Hunter. Then I dropped back two grains and worked back up using the Nosler Partion of the same weight. I just started using the 200 gr. Speer Hot-core for the .300 mag. and have to pick up the equivilant Nosler Partitons to do the same thing as I did with the 06. In the 06 at least, the two bullets are so closded that I can't tell which is which if I wwere to mix and match them. For the 06, I use the Pro-hunters for deer and the Noslers for elk. Works for me.
Paul B.

quote:

DM. Here's a little trick that has worked for me in both the 30-06 and .300 Win. Mag. I worked up my loads using the Siera 180 gr. Pro-Hunter. Then I dropped back two grains and worked back up using the Nosler Partion of the same weight. I just started using the 200 gr. Speer Hot-core for the .300 mag. and have to pick up the equivilant Nosler Partitons to do the same thing as I did with the 06. In the 06 at least, the two bullets are so closded that I can't tell which is which if I wwere to mix and match them. For the 06, I use the Pro-hunters for deer and the Noslers for elk. Works for me.
Paul B.

It works for me too, when i'm working up loads.... BUT, i really can't see any sense in useing a cheaper bullet that's not as good for part of my hunting, as in a years time the price of the actual bullets is so low....

I like knowing that i have a load in my gun that will handle anything that comes along, and will give me excelent penetration from any angle. NP's do this for me no matter if i'm after moose, or white tails or bears...

DM

DM, your photo's have aroused my interest about the rifle you are holding. Is that a double rifle, and is it the same rifle in both photo's?

For years I've loaded a cheaper practice bullet and a premium hunting bullet for my hunting rifles. Both bullets are the same weight and similar shapes. For .30 caliber I use 180 gr Sierra spitzers for practice and 180 gr Nosler Partitions for hunting. They are loaded to as close to the same velocity as accuracy allows. This way balistics and point of impact are close to the same. It gives me a cheaper bullet for lots of practice, and with a slight sight adjustment, I'm ready to hunt.

quote:

DM, your photo's have aroused my interest about the rifle you are holding. Is that a double rifle, and is it the same rifle in both photo's?

The gun is a Krieghoff drilling and yes it's the same gun in both picts...

You can see more pictures and learn more details HERE

DM

Took a look at your link. What a beautiful and unique rifle. Great wood. Thanks for the pics.