Allen,
Yeah,I figured a response like that from you.

So,just how small of blacktail did you kill in October?

Brian.

Yeah, Jack must have got his bullets from the same "bad batch" as Elmer did.

The last rifle O'Connor ordered from Al Biesen was a .458.

Actually, I think the last rifle he ordered from Biesen was a .280 Rem built on a Ruger Model 77. It wasn't completed until after Mr. O'Connor had passed away.

Kurt

Brian, since you asked, I was forced to cancelled the blacktail hunt and did not go.

I'm sure you've got as much or more hard-earned credibility than the rest of us, but I'll just put it this way: You're a Keith fan, and from what I can gather, his word is like some sort of sacred writ to you. I own most of Keith's books, but I've read all of them (not to mention seemingly countless magazine articles), and I don't believe a lot of what he had to say (or didn't say), his yarns involving the .270 ("a coyote and eagle rifle") being one of them.

I don't believe in coincidences either, but yeah, truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. The trouble is, if too many purported truths end up sounding like fiction, you can be pretty sure that you'll dealing with a great deal of fiction. So you and I differ. Folks have differed in their interpretations of Keith and O'Connor for over fifty years, so this dispute is hardly anything new.

Rock on.........

AD

[ 12-30-2002, 19:36: Message edited by: allen day ]

Mickey 1,

The Moleman is correct in that Jack's last rifle was a Ruger Model 77 in .280 Remington. It was at Al Biesen's being worked on when Jack suffered his first and last heart attack. Brad O'Connor, Jack's son, asked Al to finish the rifle and later, let a very good friend of Jack's pick it up. He still has the rifle, along with several other guns that belonged to Jack.

Tom

Allen,
Sorry to hear about the blacktail hunt.You would have had a hard hunt anyway-it was hotter than hell all season with NO rain.Even the big time private ranches had a hard time killing bucks.I hunted GOOD country,day light until dark,for 50 days,14 of which were in late November on a special afterseason BP hunt,and all I brought home were two "meat" bucks.That's about all I saw to boot.

I've read both Keith and O'Connor extensively.I will admit that I enjoy Elmer's style of writing more than Jack's,and find it more interesting,but in most cases I am more in-line with Jack's way of thinking.I am a just a deer hunter,and Jack's advise as far as deer rifles go is top notch,even today.

I honestly don't belive that Elmer was putting BS out on the shelf.I know of too many good folks,like Ken Howell,Ross Seyfried,and friends of mine who were also friends with Elmer,who say that Elmer was an honest,friendly guy who was a FANTASTIC shot,to call BS.Seyfried said Elmer was the best shot he'd ever seen-and that's coming from a right fine shot to start with!

If you don't belive Elmer,that's ok with me.Hell,I can't STAND Craig Boddington,but other folks do.

Well,at least they say they do.

Brian.

[ 12-30-2002, 20:58: Message edited by: Brian M ]

I also remember O'Connor writing about other gun writers' recommendations for elk rifles. Jack belittled and mocked their claim (I'm sure he had Keith in mind, although he didn't mention his name) that the best elk rifle was something the size of a .375 H&H, saying that those people seemed to think that an elk is "part draft horse and part locomotive."

But I also remember reading about an incident concerning some young person who had been given the task of picking up Jack from an airport and driving him to a convention where Keith would be present. The young person feared that there would be a blow-up between them, but when O'Connor entered the room he spotted Keith and the two immediately ran to each other shouting "Jack" and "Elmer" and hugging, then engaging in animated and friendly conversation.

I don't buy that story.Jack and Elmer exchanged all of one letter to each other.Jack wrote Elmer to tell him he'd read "Safari" and enjoyed it,and that Elmer should write an autobiography.Elmer replied that he was glad Jack liked the book and that several others had suggested the biography.That's it as far as correspondence goes.

Later,at a Winchester seminar,Jack turned a loaded shotgun on Elmer and ejected the shells out of it while it was pointed at him.Bill Jordan was there and backed up Elmer's story.Jack was barred from all Winchester seminars from then on.Don't read that one much do ya?Ken Howell over on 24hrcampfire knows all about it-infact,there was a long thread not too long ago about it on his board there.

In Hell I Was There,Elmer talks of a man at the arsenal that kept rigging guns to try to get Elmer hurt,as he wanted his buddy to get his job.That arsenal man's name?PO Ackley.

Brian.

I think they were both giants in our sport, not so much for what they did, but for the degree they influenced things. Would it be possible that somebody in Army ordinance read their stuff, maybe Ackley's too, and that gave rise to the M1 main gun concept? Big bore/small hi vel projectile/armor piercing.....just idle thinking.

Actually on the elk rifle issue, my own personal set of experiences and beliefs lands me smack in between the philosophies of Keith & O'Connor. I've had good, decisive elk kills with the .270, but I prefer the .300 Winchester and .338 Winchester cartridges for that use. I've seen some really dramatic elk kills by others with the .270, in fact, one of the guys who taught me the most about elk hunting growing up has killed over thirty elk, many of them extremely large trophy bulls, with the same .270. I know another Oregon hunter who has spent a lifetime outfitting in NE OR who has also used a .270 for decades on scores of elk - both his own and those wounded by dudes - and he has a whole collection (you'd have to see it to believe it) of recovered .270 bullets that he's pulled out of elk.

So based on thirty years of elk hunting, I don't see the .270 as an ideal elk rifle, but's it's one hell of a lot more than the "coyote and eagle rifle" that Elmer disparaged it as. On the other hand, it's not as much a giant killer as O'Connor portrayed it as either........

AD

Reading this tread reminded me of an article in one of the older Gun Digest, I think in the mid to late 60's, where the author made up a conversation with Keith, O'Connor, and Warren Page discussing cartridges and bullets. It was only one page long, but whoever wrote it nailed the styles of each of these three perfectly. It's been a while since I've read it, but it was extremely funny and anyone who likes the O'Connor/Keith debate would really enjoy it. If I remember to I'll see if I can find it tonight and post what issue of GD it's in.

Kurt

The by-line on that little article is phoney. I seem to recall somewhere that it was written by Carmichael.

DB Bill,

Thanks for the info. I remember that Johm Amber put a note in there to the effect that the author was using a different name because he didn't Keith, O'Connor, and Page gunning for him, but I had never heard who actually wrote it. Carmichael would make sense.

Kurt

Mickey1,

I suspect you're right that the .458 Win Mag was the last Biesen rifle that O'Connor actually took delivery of, but I don't remember for sure. Both the .280 and .458 were written about in Robert Anderson's biography of JOC that Safari Press published last year. If I remember correctly the .458 was built on a Mark X action and was intended to be used on an elephant hunt that never happened for some reason or another. It had no iron sights and was built quite heavy.

In the early 70's O'Connor was selling off a large number of his custom rifles and was having very few built.

Kurt

A writer friend of mine was invited to one of the Winchester siminars many years ago. He told me that during the meet, one day the writers were being transported to an event on a bus. Elmer was sitting next to a young guy at his first siminar and Elmer was happily and loudly telling the fellow about a guy shooting an elk three times with a .270 through the lungs and losing the animal. Les Bowman and Charles Askins were sitting close enough to hear Elmer's story and as the story went on, Bowman got more and more aggravated and finally lost his temper and said, Dammit, Elmer if the damn bull got away how in hell do you know that it was hit three times in the lungs.
Elmer didn't hear him and Askins elbowed Bowman in the ribs and told him, Leave him alone, you'll just get the old SOB started. Incidently, my friend thought the world of Elmer - he just thought the incident was funny. I always read everything that I could get my hands by both Jack and Elmer and really miss their stuff.

Dear Mickey 1,

Many alive, do I ever remember the pickpocket deal in Vegas. I had to borrow a hundred bucks from Dietrich Apel to get back home. If you know Dietrich, you know how hard it was to get a dollar out of him in those days, let alone a hundred. I'll be back at SCI in Reno the end of January. Will you be there?

On the .280 vs. the .458, the last rifle was definitely the .280. Al told me about it in a letter several years ago and I still have the letter. I also know the owner of the rifle and intend, one of these days, to do a story on Jack's Last Rifle. It is certainly possible that Al was talking about the last rifle he delivered to O'Connor, or it could be the stroke had affected his memory. I also know the owner of the .458 and suspect I could find out when Biesen finished it. I know he ordered the rifle in 1970 for a planned safari in 1972 but I don't know when Biesen delivered it. It is the last rifle that I know of that Biesen did for him before the .280. Eleanor got a rifle from Frank Pachmayr after the .458 and Jack took delivery on a rifle, also a .458, from Clayton Nelson after the Biesen .458, but none from Al that I'm aware of.

Drop me a note and let me know if you're going to SCI in 2003.

Tom

I see some references that Jack thought the .270 was an ideal Elk rifle/large game rifle. He did not think that at all, at least not in any of his books/articles. He indicated the .270 was an adequate rifle and said that anybody who hunted Elk/Moose in the brush might want a bigger caliber so if the bullet didn't exit, there was a better chance of a blood trail from the larger entrance and that larger / heavier bullets were more reliable to break heavy bones. He also said that even though the .270 was his favorite all around rifle, that he did not kid himself that it is the one shot killer on larger game as it is on deer/medium game and that goes for the .30-06 as well. It should also be noted that when Jack described an all around rifle, it started with shooting jack rabbits/coyotes/occasional varmits and went up to big game, now it seems all around rifles start at deer and go up. If you think of it in this manner, you can see why Jack liked .270/06s for all around vs. magnums (i.e. many more rounds fired at small game).

-Lou

I'm with anybody who doubts the veracity of old Elmer. Just too far-fetched for me.

I think I can tell you what Jack and Elmer would think...they'd think that the gun writers of today, with possibly one exception, are pretty well worthless, and on that point they would both be right! These guys are from the same generation as my dad and uncles. They wern't gun writers, but I can tell you they had their fair share of poop to deal out too! Goes with the generation I think. I had a occasion to write Mr. O'Connor once, about 1969 maybe. I pestered him about the data for low number Springfield actions. He gave me the courtesy of a personal response, with requested info and seemed every bit a gentleman in his note.

i own a book having something to do with rifles by o'conner. the style of his writing, in that book, is quite unforgivable, being that there are hardly any commas where commas might make the text intelligible. by that measure, i don't like o'conner. i don't like keith either; that 10-gallon stetson always annoys me.