https://www.justice.gov/usao-n...rson-national-forest



Department of Justice
U.S. Attorney’s Office
District of New Mexico
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Thursday, December 9, 2021

Las Vegas man found guilty of illegally guiding hunt in Carson National Forest

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – A federal court on Dec. 1 found Carlos Ortiz, 28, of Las Vegas, New Mexico, guilty of illegally guiding a bighorn sheep hunt in the Carson National Forest. On December 8, the court sentenced Ortiz to a year and a half of probation and fined him $7,600.

According to court records, on Aug. 7, 2020, Ortiz, doing business as Reaper Backcountry Outfitters, was guiding a party to hunt bighorn sheep. Though the itinerary for the hunt stated that it was to take place in the Santa Fe National Forest, the GPS coordinates included in the itinerary were located in the Carson National Forest.

Officers from the U.S. Forest Service and the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish encountered the party at their campsite in the Carson National Forest. The officers also had encountered two individuals on horseback who told officers they were helping Ortiz pack out a bighorn sheep killed by Ortiz’s client. The officers confirmed that the sheep had been killed in the Carson National Forest.

At the time, Ortiz was not authorized to conduct any commercial activity in the Carson National Forest and was not authorized to guide bighorn sheep hunts in the Santa Fe National Forest. Additionally, he was not authorized to conduct guided hunts with overnight camping in either forest.

“Those at the Forest Service and the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish who enforce our laws to protect and sustain our Nation’s forests and wildlife are stewards of our country’s rich and diverse natural heritage, which includes majestic animals like North America’s bighorn sheep,” said U.S. Attorney Fred Federici. “The U.S. Attorney’s Office is fully committed to enforcing our land and wildlife laws so that all Americans, including generations of Americans to come, can enjoy our Nation’s natural resources, and not those who attempt to profit by violating the law.”

“I am very pleased to see this conviction and sentence,” said Special Agent in Charge James Alford from the U.S. Forest Service Southwestern Region. “The national forests belong to every citizen and when someone is willfully violating the law it steals opportunities for others to enjoy our public lands. This is especially true in this case since an outfitter guide was breaking the law for commercial gain. I want to thank our U.S. Forest Service law enforcement officers, New Mexico Department of Game and Fish conservations officers, and Assistant U.S. Attorneys for their outstanding work of protecting America’s national forests and natural resources.”

“I want to thank the U.S. Forest Service law enforcement officers and Conservation Officers for their hard work on this case in New Mexico’s backcountry,” said Game and Fish Colonel Bobby Griego. “It is important for all New Mexico Outfitters to ensure they not only have completed requirements from the Game and Fish Department, but also our federal and state land management partners.”

The U.S. Forest Service and the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish investigated this case. Assistant U.S. Attorneys Louis Mattei and Rumaldo Armijo prosecuted the case.

Topic(s):
Wildlife
Component(s):
USAO - New Mexico
Press Release Number:
21-236

Slap on the wrist but better than nothing I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Slap on the wrist but better than nothing I suppose.

I hear ya, but if you look at it in its totally...he's really only guilty of stupidity, by not obtaining a FS use permit (permission) to guide on the "KING'S" land...that every other hunter / hiker / biker / and flower picker can utilize at anytime for free!!!

Now again, it was really stupid, no doubt - as obtaining a FS guide / use permit in NM is pretty simple, and not very expensive...I'd expect he could have got one pretty easily from my experience getting them in NM!? But for stupidity, he's paying $7,600 in fines and 18 months probation (which means no possession of firearms, can't leave the state without permission, etc, etc) Drug guys get less than that all the time, and they are a true menace to society...his only crime was outfitting / guiding a licensed hunter (as a licensed outfitter / guide) without a govt permit to use the public land we all pay for...including him! I'm not excusing it at all, but I try to keep these things in perspective when it comes to the govt telling us how citizens are fleecing "we the people"...when in fact nobody is fleecing "we the people" more than the govt!

Aaron, Good post ^^^

Any guy who calls himself a professional outfitter knows the rules he must abide by while making money off the use of public land. I agree it is a slap on the wrist.

There is a distinct difference between a commercial guide and an individual hunting on National Forest System lands. The guide is doing it commercially. Any commercial activity on these lands means a special use permit is required. That includes guiding, timber harvest, grazing, mining, or any other commercial activity. Outdoor shows filmed for TV must be done under a special use permit. The permit specifies what activities can or can not occur on the Forest. The main reason outfitters often try to avoid getting a permit is that they are required to have liability insurance to protect the clients. They also have to pay a percentage (I think it is 3%) of there proceeds to the Forest Service for the commercial use. By avoiding the insurance, they save a lot of money but are not competing fairly with other outfitters and there is no protection of clients if something happens. And the outfitters who don't get permits are also often doing other things that are illegal.

This guy had a permit to operate on another Forest, so he knew the rules. I think he got off light.

It’s amazing how differently we all see the same case.... $7,600 and 18 months of probation doesn’t seem like a “light sentence” for basically failing to secure a use permit.

I mean, we have seen real poachers get off with far less.

And the prosecution’s claim that he “stole opportunities from others” is truly BS in the highest degree. No one was poaching, everything was up to snuff, except that he didn’t have a permit that would have cost him a portion of the hunt proceeds. So basically, this case was about him avoiding paying the fees to the forest service.

I would like to know if the $7,600 fine was tied to the amount that he was paid for guiding the illegal hunt. I am guessing that his failure to have a permit(which would have forced him to pay 3% of the proceeds to the FS), has caused him to forfeit the entire price that he was paid for the hunt. If that is the case, then it feels like justice was served with the fine. I don’t know that 18 months probation was necessary.

In the other hand, now that he has a record, I would hope that he will do things by the book from here on out.

I don’t know Chip personally but had talked with him a few times and have clients and friends that have hunted with him. I don’t know what the entire story is but his statement gives his side. I’ll see if I can find it and post it here

Edit: found it

PLEASE SHARE!!!!

I think by now it’s safe to say everyone has read the articles and seen the news story regarding my case. Of course everyone has an opinion, some good and some bad. Truthfully, nobody has asked us for our side, no news outlets have attempted to contact me for comment nor does anyone truly understand the case; so Im taking it upon myself to answer questions and piece together all the areas that have been left out of the story.

To put an end to the startling headline, the hunt was not illegal. My hunter drew a once in a lifetime tag for Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep. He legally killed it, processed it and still has a beautiful mount to show for this once in a lifetime event. To say this hunt was illegal is putting a bad title to not only me but the young man and his team that assisted on this hunt.

I am not illegal. I have a current New Mexico Outfitters License. I am highly recommended as a safe, responsible, legal, and ethical outfitter. Im an active member for the council of outfitters and guides. I am an active and legal guide in Arizona. I have obtained permits for almost every National Forest in the state for the passed nine years. If I have not obtained my own permit, I have guided under other reputable outfits.

Every year I have had at least two to three Bighorn Sheep hunts. That’s two or three out of the 20-25 tags given out each year. I’ve also had the opportunity to assist other outfits in their Bighorn Sheep hunts.

The hunt in question happened in 2020 in the midst of the Coronavirus pandemic. I truly believe this caused issues in communication as employees are working from home. It’s difficult to get any sort of information or discuss things as people are not in their offices. The USFS also has a quick employee turn around time. You can be sure that the person you spoke to yesterday doesn’t work there today; hence the repeated online ads for job opportunities with the USFS.

Permits are due by June 1st of every year. We turned in permits for both the Santa Fe National Forest and the Carson National Forest in early May of 2020. The USFS has over two months to review the permits, ask for additional supporting documents, and assist outfitters and guides to help them be successful. During the two months after we submitted permits, we had no response from the Carson National Forest. Midway through July we began pressing for an answer on the permits seeing that we had a bighorn sheep hunt coming up and opening day was quickly approaching. The Carson permit administrator asked for a document we already provided which she found later in the packet we already submitted. The Santa Fe asked for a word document with our changes from last years permit. We added guides, deleted others, changed our vehicle list, and REQUESTED bighorn sheep be added to the list of hunting species as we were aware of the hunt coming up. We received our Santa Fe permit with he amendments noted. Keep in mind we still have not received any response from the Carson.

Two days before a hunt a trip itinerary is required for the National Forest you’re conducting the hunt on. This lists all the details of the hunt including camping location, client information etc. We submitted the itinerary as we normally do. We specified camping locations for serpent lake area which is on the Carson two miles from the Santa Fe where we would be hunting. We were sent an email by the Santa Fe permit administrator that we were good to go and to “have a nice hunt!” On opening morning we successfully harvested a trophy Bighorn Sheep. We processed it and packed it on one of our mules. We began making the trip back to the serpent lake campsite to make the trip back to the vehicle which was parked in the serpent lake parking lot; the quickest and safest route back to the clients vehicle.

While stopped at the clients campsite, we were approached by officers with the U.S. Forest Service and the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. Without hesitation, I pulled out my credentials for them to review. A member of my hunting group reported a bighorn sheep dead head we stumbled upon that must have been sitting for some time. It’s ethical to report the dead head to proper authorities. Everything checked out and we were released. Days after the hunt, I received a cease and desist letter from the Carson National Forest (still had not heard back about our permit until NOW. We were denied because we were accused of operating on the Carson. Weeks after I was mailed the citation.

I chose to fight the citation in court rather than paying the $530 fine because along with the fee, I would lose all guiding and outfitting privileges for 3 years. If you know me, you know this is my only livelihood. This is how I support my family. Losing my license would mean I wouldn’t be able to provide for my family for three years and that was not something I was willing to do. This ultimately left me with no other choice but to fight it.

The following year, 2021, I was denied a Carson permit again although my permit was flawless. Sounds like retaliation to me. The Santa Fe approved my permit, worked with me to ensure I was safe and legal and I conducted the exact same hunt without an issue exactly one year later.

At no point in this case did the DA’s office provide a kill location or provide evidence of any sort to show a kill on the Carson. No bloody images to show where we processed it. No photos or video of us processing it (as they testified they SAW us from an overlook point). Both officers had lapel cameras but didn’t capture anything except our interaction by the camp site. Towards the end of the case, they pulled a “check in” document from when my client checked in his Bighorn Sheep a week after the hunt. It said “Serpent Lake Area” and that was their groundbreaking evidence. If you know the area, Serpent Lake is a familiar landmark to describe the entire area.

In the end, it really came down to this. They said I was conducting commercial activity by packing out the carcass through the Carson National Forest back to the clients vehicle. Which is troublesome for ALL guides and outfitters. They are essentially saying you cannot travel through National Forests you don’t have a permit for. I would have to travel around 1.6 million acres of forest land to legally pack out that animal. If this is the case, all outfitters and guides have committed a federal crime. When asking both officers with the U.S. Forest Service and the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish in their testimony if it was illegal to TRAVEL or CAMP in the National Forest without a permit, both were unsure and mentioned they didn’t believe it was illegal.

In closing, I would like to note that I still have a license and I will still pursue a Carson permit this upcoming season. I am still operating legally this very moment. I am walking away with a fine and unsupervised probation but that is nothing compared to not being able to support my family and the guides and their families I employ under my outfit.

I will be actively working to find clarity on this issue through various avenues because I think outfitters and guides deserve a clear explanation on this gray area issue. Id like to do more to ensure the USFS is actually helping outfitters and guides because to some of us, this is our way of life passed down from generation to generation. It may not be the ideal recreational hiking, mountain biking, or rainbow family gathering activities they FULLY support but they have an obligation to help all of us be successful. We ARE public land owners and they work for US.

Thank you for taking the time to read our story and I’ll be available to answer any further questions.

Sincerely,
Carlos “Chip" Ortiz & Family
Reaper Backcountry Outfitters

For the less knowledgeable, that's Las Vegas, as in Las Vegas, New Mexico, not Las Vegas, Nevada.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:


Sincerely,
Carlos “Chip" Ortiz & Family
Reaper Backcountry Outfitters

Have you contacted your Congress-critter about this? They can light a fire under these guys if they want to. It sounds like the FS staff isn't doing what they are supposed to do. Good luck getting this corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
It’s amazing how differently we all see the same case.... $7,600 and 18 months of probation doesn’t seem like a “light sentence” for basically failing to secure a use permit.

I mean, we have seen real poachers get off with far less.

And the prosecution’s claim that he “stole opportunities from others” is truly BS in the highest degree. No one was poaching, everything was up to snuff, except that he didn’t have a permit that would have cost him a portion of the hunt proceeds. So basically, this case was about him avoiding paying the fees to the forest service.

I would like to know if the $7,600 fine was tied to the amount that he was paid for guiding the illegal hunt. I am guessing that his failure to have a permit(which would have forced him to pay 3% of the proceeds to the FS), has caused him to forfeit the entire price that he was paid for the hunt. If that is the case, then it feels like justice was served with the fine. I don’t know that 18 months probation was necessary.

In the other hand, now that he has a record, I would hope that he will do things by the book from here on out.

I agree 100%.
Aaron makes a great comment as well.

I understand your plight completely. Another once fine working Government organization, the USFS, going the way of environmental liberalism.

The Forest Service on our National Forest has been on a 18 month paid vacation since going underground because of covid. I once owned a piece of property surrounded by USFS lands. I had to purchase and maintain a USFS Road Use Permit every year. One year they amended my permit and tried to restrict me to 6 access trips to my property per year. The general public could use the road without restriction year round. When we got to beginning legal action. It was determined that the road had been built prior to 1977 and a congressional mandate would not allow them to go forward. Had the road been built after 1977 they could have. Now the Endangered Species Act has nullified the mandate.

The Old School Forest Service people are now gone. They where good to work with. Timber Managers are gone, replaced by recreational and environmental managers. They are not shy about their agendas and our National Forests are imploding because of lack of resource management, as evidenced by the devastating fires in the Western U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by scojac:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:


Sincerely,
Carlos “Chip" Ortiz & Family
Reaper Backcountry Outfitters

Have you contacted your Congress-critter about this? They can light a fire under these guys if they want to. It sounds like the FS staff isn't doing what they are supposed to do. Good luck getting this corrected.

I haven’t contacted anybody. It doesn’t involve me at all. I just copied and pasted the statement that the outfitter made regarding the citation he received

Drum, thanks. Always two sides to a story. The media has no interest in his side. it isn't salacious enough.

Thanks for posting Drum.

quote:

Originally posted by bentaframe:
I understand your plight completely. Another once fine working Government organization, the USFS, going the way of environmental liberalism.

The Forest Service on our National Forest has been on a 18 month paid vacation since going underground because of covid. I once owned a piece of property surrounded by USFS lands. I had to purchase and maintain a USFS Road Use Permit every year. One year they amended my permit and tried to restrict me to 6 access trips to my property per year. The general public could use the road without restriction year round. When we got to beginning legal action. It was determined that the road had been built prior to 1977 and a congressional mandate would not allow them to go forward. Had the road been built after 1977 they could have. Now the Endangered Species Act has nullified the mandate.

The Old School Forest Service people are now gone. They where good to work with. Timber Managers are gone, replaced by recreational and environmental managers. They are not shy about their agendas and our National Forests are imploding because of lack of resource management, as evidenced by the devastating fires in the Western U.S.

Another good post.

I seen The feds actively working to get outfitters out of the national forests.

I have inholdings the feds are not good neighbors to have.

Had a park ranger tell me one day they would not block off our access road.

The very next day they had posts in the ground a 4 foot boulder in front of them and a No vehicles allow sign.

Again the feds are not good neighbors.

They have big stick and are not afraid of using it.

As some one else said the FEDs state DNRs are being over run with envrio wakos.

A little off topic but it will give you a good idea how this org supports the locals.

We have a late elk hunt here in Northern Utah. I cannot remember the exact dates but the Forest service shuts
down many (if not all) the main roads before this hunt. Even if there is little to no snow, they are shut down. I realize I will get the argument "just hike in" or "they are saving the roads from "wear and tear". I understand this argument but I am talking about the main access roads to the unit.

My wife had the tag several years back and I remember talking to the forest service about it (at their office). You can imagine how that went. I doubt the majority of them (maybe I am wrong) support hunting.

I'm not taking sides but since I have to deal with the Feds, for a couple different reasons, they don't seem to realize that they work for us and manage our lands. Their attitude is that we work for them and it's their lands and their rules which can change without notice. This keeps us off balance all the time.
I'm dealing on an issue right now and they made a mistake yet they want me to pay the penalties.
Ridiculous but true!
I'm skeptical when the Feds are telling their side of the story and, as usual, someone else pays.

I am a federal employee for another government agency.

I interviewed for a Forest Supervisor position in October, they are very concerned with giving everyone on the left a voice.

There were about 8 interview questions. 6 of them had to do with not hurting someone's feelings, accepting, gays, minorities, women and everything else.

1 of them asked a question about dealing with the public.

The final question had to do with managing federal lands.

The vast majority of the forest supervisors and district managers I have been reading about have been women or minorities. Even so far as to putting black or Asian folks in the middle of nowhere in the Kaibab and Gila.

I am not saying someone of a race not represented in a location shouldn't have a government job. I honestly could care less, it is just interesting that this agency has done so much of that. Other federal agencies don't spend so much time on leftist policies.

I used to work in the intel community in the military, there isn't much available on me on the internet as I don't do facebook, linkedin or anything like that.

Needless to say I didn't get the job, but I don't really feel as though I should have ever got an interview.

I am a disabled veteran and I alot of people have a metric for that.

Unfortunately the USFWS seems to be going down the same path. 50 years ago they were very pro hunting, nowdays a huge percentage of employees are anti.

I never personally had "problems" with the FS in NM when I got guiding permits, but it was always a lengthy PIA process! 6-10 weeks to process something that should take about 48 hrs...but they wouldn't be the govt if they were remotely efficient!

On the flip side...the FS in Colorado is dominated by, and has been for a long time now, anti-hunting, tree hugging liberals, who want nothing more than to stop all hunting on their beloved forest! Permits are routinely denied, delayed, or simply ignored for no reason at all...I dealt with the non-sense for years! A more worthless bunch I have never experienced in my life!

To those always wanting to "Hang Em High"...maybe consider all angles of the story before casting judgment or calling for someone's head!? Just a thought!!

quote:

I interviewed for a Forest Supervisor position in October, they are very concerned with giving everyone on the left a voice.

So your not moving to MI.

Apparently not.

It was out of my job series, and though I am thankful I have no idea why they interviewed me.

I asked another Forest Service employee I know if they have a metric for ensuring disabled veterans get interviews and the person said no.

So I really don't know why I got the call.

Thinking I dodged a bullet.

I would imagine that supervising 40-75 federal employees is a nightmare.

Supervising the few that I have is a pain in the ass.

quote:

I would imagine that supervising 40-75 federal employees is a nightmare.

Supervising the few that I have is a pain in the ass.

I have friend that did just that went from a small grew (10) to one with 40.

He is looking for another job.