I own a bunch of 06's like the caliber a lot I own a 338 win mag ect ect. When I look at a full size brown bear mount I want something bigger in my hands. I am building a 416 taylor. Just the smaller calibers well kill them just fine if all goes right. But if things go wrong and a 1000lb bear is trying to turn u into hamburger. The 06 looks awful small.

As 90 percent of you know, my namesake was always fond of the .30/06, and even more, the .270 and used them extensively on everything up to moose and grizzly. He argued his whole career with Elmer Kieth on the subject of whether you needed a big bore. Nevertheless, when he went after Brown Bear, he somehow saw his way clear to carry a .375 H & H. Articles in Outdoor Life are one thing---I think he figured his skin was quite another.

Like Seafire, I will never be able to hunt BB, but I am a great fan of Bob Hagel, whose book "Guns Loads and Hunting Tips" contains what is probably the best analysis of bullet performance on various game at various velocities, etc. He comes down more on Kieth's side than O'Connor's, and hunted large game extensively for about half a century.

Hagel felt that if you had a combination of high velocity with proper bullet construction, the 7mm was O.K. He used the 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum (about the equivalent of the 7mm STW, I believe,)and claims to have seen one-shot kills.) On the other hand, he sang the praises of the .340 as about optimum. No doubt he would have preferred the .30/06 with well constructed bullets to the .257 STW.

In high school, one of the guys I hung around with got jilted by his girlfriend and attempted to do away with himself with a .22 LR. It took him about half a day to get the results he sought. That convinced me early on to use enough gun. Years later, my law partner got enough of life and put a .30/30 in his mouth. Although he had little shooting experience, it worked quite nicely for him. Ernest Hemingway, by contrast, was a very experienced hunter and relied on the 12 gauge for extra insurance.

Having seen pictures of the beasts, if I COULD hunt BB, I would probably use a .700 Nitro, provided my guide could back me up with something more adequate.

shot placement is everything agreed,I know even elephants fall to the 06,but why take a knife to a gun fight.Anyone can learn to handle a 338 and I think that is a good starting point.Everyone feels the 06 will work and it will if everything goes right,Would you feel the same way if you had to go into the alders and close out the game on a wounded grizz or you you like more stopping power?A 243 would work if everything went perfectly-how often does everything go as planned

This is a great thread. Someone always has a different point of view, and that makes things entertaining. Given ANY situation with any breed bear, i'll take my 416 weatherby with a 400 gr X-bullet,and leave my 300 wby, and 7mm wby on the shelf. I can tell you that it's highly unlikely that the said bear will go 1-2 miles over any hill.
Most any type critter ive shot, at one time or another has done the 50 yard death run. Eventually
you are going to get atleast one animal that has'nt been told he's supposed to drop in a pile.
And I don't care what caliber/cartridge you are shooting, it's going to happen, eventually.
Yes the 30-06 will kill anything that walks on our planet, so will lesser cartridges. There are also much better cartridges/bullet combos to kill big shit too, but if you want to put grand dads pre-ww2 mod. 70, 06' to the test, hey, it's a free
country.
Trigger

I hear alot about shot placement and that,s true, that it is VERY important, but when you are hunting brown bears and you stalk this bear to get a shot you don't know whats going to happen you may trigger that bear to come towards you (charge) and then you may have to shoot and that means a frontal shot and I just think that you are better off with a heavy caliber, I would recondmend a 375 and 338 would be the minimun.

I'm not going to say I have a lot of experience at the matter but more than some and less than others.
I follow different strings here on AR and sometimes I get amazed by all the BS from some. Yes you can kill a BB with a 22 Lr if you shoot into his ear and hit the brain. Hell why don't we use one for hunting big brown bears?

I have witnessed a near death experience with a charging BB and for you guys thinking a 06 is adequate think again. This was a 10'4" BB hit perfectly with a first shot from a 375H&H. Range 90 yards. Smashing one shoulder and completely through the vitals and exit hole just behind the off shoulder. The bear turned and charged and was hit three times with the same rifle, each hit just halted him a bit. The guide was carrying a 300 Wea and hit the bear 4 times and was lucky enough (or cold enough) to shoot him in the head at 20 yards with the bear still going at full throttle. But the problem was that there was no and I mean absolutely no reaction to the rest of his shots.
After being field dressed the bear was hit solid 7 times in the chest and all shots would have killed it eventually but neither stopped him.
The 375 was loaded with 300 Grs Nosler Part doing about 2550f/s. I know I loaded the ammo...

In most cases you will kill a bear or anything else for that matter with a perfect shot from light caliber guns. This does not make them sufficient in any way. D.W Bell shot a lot of elephants with 6,5x54 and 7x 57. Hopefully nobody in his or her right mind will try to copy him...

[ 12-06-2003, 02:33: Message edited by: Sauer 150 ]

I've been watching the recent responses and sure enough, more stories about lethal hits with big guns not dropping bears. Now we have a 340Wby, 375H&H and 460Wby that don't always anchor big bears.

So short of an RPG, maybe there's no such thing as enough gun. If that's true, then we're back to the 06. It has a proven record of many decades. The examples above show that even the widely accepted BB cartridges don't always suffice, so I think that whatever one shoots well is what's recommended (let's start that from the 06 and up). If you can't shoot a 375H&H well because you're more scared of it than the bears, what's the point of all that power? Might as well use an 06 and trust that you can handle it correctly.

If I ever get the chance to meet a BB up close I'll let you know if my opinions change. Maybe I'll come back and advise that anyone who values life carry that RPG and nothing less.

hi
after reading all the answers i came to this conclusion ONE 22LR in THE HEAD IS MORE EFECTIVE THAN A 460 WEATHEBY IN THE ASS. it is not the caliber it is the shooter if you you shoot a bear in the head or CNS it would die like a rock and shots in the other part of body can't stop a charging bear no matter which caliber is used.
regards
danny
ps : i'll bring my savage 24 in3030/12 loaded heavily with 170gr nosler and backed by the heavist 3 inch slug if a bear try to eat me i will do cause him a lot of trouble before meal

Danny,

You asked for opinions from those with experience hunting brown bears. You did get lots of replies, lots of theory, lots of guessing, and not much experience.

There was a couple of folks that may have had experience but were being modest. You only got FOUR definite replies from hunters who said they have hunted big brown bears and the upshot from each of them was "go get something bigger!"

In spite of what you asked for, it appears you are leaning towards the writtings of those that haven't done it, in person but happy to talk about it.

If the $10,000 to $14,000 is seriously burning a hole in your pocket, then IMHO you may want to consider contacting "the boys in the trenches" that are doing it regular and see what the outfitter's minimum caliber that they will work with you on. Since they'll be right there by your side, instead of 2,000 to 6,000 miles away by their fireside computer, their opine may carry more weight. As far as I can tell, Ray Atkinson sends folks to the far corners of the globe in quest of dangerous game and is at least indirectly responsible for getting them properly equipped and back in one piece, I would recommend his advice.

Of course, if the $10,000 to $14,000 isn't burning a hole in your pocket and you are not heading up to Alaska and it's just a theoretical exercise, then those 223's are sounding mighty economical.

Good Hunting and Good Luck In Any Case,

EKM

[ 12-06-2003, 06:19: Message edited by: ELKampMaster ]

I'd have to say that it boils down to just using alittle common sense. Common sense tells me to use something thats going to make end to end holes through a BB, regardless of angle. If anyone else out there does'nt have that same desire, perhaps darwin is calling your name.
No, I hav'nt hunted BB, but it does'nt take a rocket scientist to figure it the hell out.
Trigger

ELKampMaster,

You hit it right on the nose. The question isn't, "if you can", it's "if you should." I've hunted Grizzlys twice and went to a larger, heavier bullet.

I don't understand why a person would spend 10,000 to 15,000 on a hunt, but couldn't afford the 600 for a capable Bear gun.

For some of you Alaska guys who have real world experience on this, I have an honest question to ask.

While everyone talks about bore size rifle etc, is it realistic to thing about a 12 gauge shot gun with 3 1/2 mags in it for Brown Bear attacks?

Say intermix the first shot buck shot, the next a slug, then buck shot, then slug etc.?

My logic is that it can be had with an 8 round tube, it is fast handling, you don't need a long barrel, the buckshot ( double or triple 00) on the first shot should be right in its face, taking out its sense of smell and sight if at all possible.

The second shot being a 550 grain slug of lead should start slowing it up some.

I am asking this with no experience in dealing with them, so this is a honest question to the the experienced in the group. I have heard of guides in Alaska carrying 12 gauges for back up, but no one has put forth that option on the forum that I have at least read.

Thanks for anyone and everyone's input on that.

Personally I would think about using a Riot shotgun set up for backup. It would be the max firepower at close range to me.

I have to admit that I have not read all the responses here...

But I can guarantee you that a 160gr X bullet from a 7RM will penetrate both shoulders of a grizzly, and leave a massive wound.

I have no doubt that a similar sized X bullet form a 30-06 wil do the same job.

Pick your shot, aim for the shoulder with your X bullet, and you will kill the bear.

FWIW, I use a .375 H&H for bears, but I have rarely seen a bear go down so quickly with the X bullet through the shoulders.

Danny Pay

Something that I didn't state clearly in my last post is that the terrain hunted should be the deciding factor in cartridge choice.
Your 30-06 will work very well in somewhat open terrain. In fact I guarantee a dead bear within a couple of hundred yards of a well placed shot.

If you hunt browns in the thick stuff it is a different story. All of the "Jack O'Conners" talk really big until they get their first up close and personal with a big brown bear. They really are impressive!
Your confidence in your 30-06 will be at that moment wane significantly and you will probably wish to be anywhere else.

You sure as hell will wish that your barrel looked a little bit more like a sewer pipe!

Maybe guys hunting with guides feel more secure but I know that being out there alone you had better feel confident in your gun and shooting ability!

Jamie

Hi again
first of all thanks for the all the answeres i got. it was my fault i didn't clarify my qustion in the biging . i was not planing to go trofy bear hunting in alaska. if i go there it is manly for fishing and maybe hunting small games and i may do that by sailing there . the idea was to be prepared if a bear find "moi" atractive for dinner(now old and fat ladies don,t care about me anymore,but many be hundreds of slow moving pounds of fat meat draw attention of a hungry bear )idea was having a gun which could provid me safty for the boat or camp.
regards
danny

A slight technicality, but a 460 Weatherby {sic} "in the ass" IS better than a 22lr in the head for the big bears. Inall likelyhood, that 22 will not penetrate the skull unless it's point blank and zero deflection angle, while a 460 Weatherby will range all the way up through the vitals, exiting the chest, but Danny, I get your point jorge

hi jorge
you are right I have to change this statement A 22LR IN THE HEAD IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN 460 WEATHERBY IN THE AIR!! because THS (texas heart shot) is very well placed shot!! i've actually killed plenty of birds with 22 lr in the ASS and they dropped as they have been shot in the head!! no matter which end you hit them.the largest caliber i have tried is 458 win and i don,t like these big stuffs at all because the time of recovery from recoil is long and can allow a charging animal get close or catch me.i prefer a gun which I can point and shoot it like a shotgun without heavy recoil.if there are guys who can shoot a 458 or 375 like a shotgun then they are lucky good shooters.
regards
danny

regarding the shotgun ques;.....

some guides do use a shotgun, very few. decent weapon to shoot an on rushing bear. useless, if u have to shoot a wounded rapidly bear going away. due to very limited range. even so, i think that instead of buckshot... triple aught buck would be better instead of 3.5", 3" will provide adequate penetration at close range and less recoil to allow more accurate and faster followup shots. the triple aught would have to catch a soft area to be deadly, eye, nose, mouth, throat. skull would likely deflect it.

as for 7mm, another poor choice a large b.b. can be 3x's the size of an inland grizzly and presents a much bigger, thicker target. a 180 gr. bullet is marginal enough now a 160 gr., asking for trouble. 7mm will provide a smaller wound channel for blood flow to follow after the b.b. is shot and u have to track it.

now lets talk about .270's with 130 gr. bullets.

if there is a n. american animal that calls for using the bigger gun and the b.b. isn't it i don't know what is. guys who have not hunter them always are talking about smaller guns that will do the job instead of the more suitable bigger gun the job calls for.

the guided hunter owes it to the animal, the guide and himself to use a gun that will cleanly, humanely and safely do the job.

cold zero

Sauer150, that was one hell of a tough bear; your story pretty much confirms my previous thoughts about wearing my gore-tex diapers next time I'm in BB country!

Guys:

First of all, regarding the shotgun question. Personally, in my mind, I'm not sure about it's use on brown bear. I can tell you that the old guide I knew & worked for several times told stories about Red Adney. Red was an old guide/miner & operated out of Chandalar Lake in the Brooks Range. Supposedly, Red didn't like bears but he would use a shotgun for protection. As I recall the story, he used a pump and loaded slugs in the magazine first, then the last 2-3 were double 0 buckshot or maybe about # 3 shot. Understand, Red was a very cool customer & could let a grizzly get within about 20 yards of him. Red's attitude was you had to either kill the bear, immobilize him or turn him. Red figured it was easier to turn him. Were I to rely on a shotgun, I'd go for an Ithaca Deerslayer with open sights. The above is just what's been related to me.

Another interesting thing I've noticed while following this thread regards the Ak. hunting regs. Turns out, if one is lucky enough to draw a permit for bison, the requirement is the use of a firearm using at least a 200 grain bullet and providing at least 2000 ft.lbs of energy at 100 yds. There is no such requirement for the big bears. That means a 220 gr. bullet from a .30-06 won't qualify for bison, at least from the information I've seen. Therefore, it seems to me, that the .30-06 proponents are saying it's ok for brown bears but not for bison. Now, given a choice, which would you rather have & for what? Just my thoughts & observations. Bear in Fairbanks

[ 12-06-2003, 23:41: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]

God I love Bear stories..

I expect that the frontiersmen who nearly wiped out Grizzlys in the lower 48 would have loved to have had a 30-06 with 220 grain bullets for said task. BUT, that being said, Ive also noticed that things like large bears have a funny way of getting bigger as they get closer.

The 220 grain 30 cal bullets have lost tremendous ground because they rarley give optimal velocities in any chambering, but they are still just as hard hitting and deep penetrating as they ever were when up close and personal is the game. When hunting circumstances dictate such a need and chambering options are limited they are a great soloution.

Personally, I would want my BB 30-06 to be a 338-06 or better yet a 340 Gibbs.

[ 12-07-2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

hi sauer
you mentioned that even a hard heater like 375 was not enough to down a big bear . i wonder if shoot placement has to do not the caliber because 375 has a good reputation even in Africa?
danny

hi Sauer
If the bear was hit 7 times lethaly then he had died 7 times!!i beleive the last shot in the head was lethal and those 6 shots were not lethal.
regards
danny

My two cents.

In this area we have two hunting stores, with huge brown bear pictures. It's a bit strange, but both BB's took 11 shots from 375 H&H's to go down.

Both over 1200 pounds.

Not the same bears.

I bought a 375, but I bought it because it holds 6 rounds.

Perhaps we should be looking at magazine capacity, not bullet weight, for killing brown bears.

Perhaps the cumulative effect of 20 rounds of
.308 150-180 grain bullets out of an M1A would be the best rifle?
Perhaps ten rounds of 30-06 out of an M1 Garand, or, heresy that it is, 30 rounds of accurately fired .223, out of an AR 15.

A number of African people have suggested the most frequently used rifle for elephant, or big game in Africa, is the Ak-47, using multiple, accurate, deep penetrating shots seems to be more effective then a slow rate of fire, and large bullets.
Another that a triple tap from a FnFAL is also very effective, in 308 caliber.

Perhaps the logic is 375 11 X 300 grains =3300 grains.

You can also do, 308 20 x 150 grains = 3000 grains
How about 223 30 X 100 grains =3000 grains
or perhaps .45 mac 10, 230 grains 32 rounds= 7360 grains

Perhaps the best bear gun is a 45 mac 10. 32 rounds, at 800 fps, at close range, doubling the
grains of all of the above. It's lighter then any big rifle, and at close range, highly effective, in particular if all that 45 caliber hardball is going out at 1200 rounds per second.

That's like getting hit with a double two bore, or a one bore, but, without the recoil.

Maybe autos are better for some things.

s

[ 12-09-2003, 05:26: Message edited by: Socrates ]