Just an answer to Paul-that will never happen as the AZGF all they are interested in is the almightly $$$. So you may never get a tag again! So it won't hurt the AZGF to give the non-residents 50% of the tags-being this year they gave them 25% of the bull tags now-better get ready to hunt more cow hunts! I hunt archery only and can't get a tag for even a cow! So get used to it! And lay off of the fowl language too!

Paul
I stated a few days ago that all hunters need to work together to protect the individual �states rights� from the Liberal court system. I still stand by that clime and it seems that in so many words you feel the same way. The problems are simple:
1. There is only about 10% of the American population that hunts, thus we are outnumbered!
2. I can not think of a government state or otherwise that is not driven by self preservating greed, thus the push for higher non resident hunting.
3. There is no question that the Federal court system has and is actively pushing its own agenda regardless of the will of the voting public.

All that said; what do we do? The best thing I can say is that we hunters through our local and state ligatures work for �fair� hunting laws that will still �feed� the states need for money, but keep the state out of the court system. (A place we can not win.) Additionally we can let the companies that support such legal action we do not approve and thus remove our support of said companies. �United we stand divided we fall!�

Paul,



No need for an apology. Everyone here no doubt realizes you have a bit more class and maturity than those who would be tongue-tied if they had to leave the boorish name-calling and vulgarity out of their informative missives here.



Re: trapping



Yup, could be a large can of worms that dumped. Obviously, the wording of any ban on the sale of wildlife could possibly contain exceptions. Then again, whether that would stand a court test is another matter altogether.



That said, I'm sure more than a couple members of the game departments' legal counsel here and in other states will be going over every proposal and drafts of rule changes very, very carefully to avoid more legal ramifications.



There are many possible rule changes the AZGFD has on the table that merely takes the OK of the game commission to initiate them into the regulations.



In contrast, any NR fee increase would be more difficult and take longer because most NR licenses are at the cap the legislature approved the last time G&F proposed raising fees. They had done so in increments over several years.



So now the process would involve another proposal to the legislature for a maximum level increase, which would likely include resident licenses too. BUT...that doesn't mean G&F will increase ALL licenses or even do so to the max the legislature might allow for NR ones. To get it through, however, requires a 2/3 majority vote. -TONY

It seems to me that we fought a war once over states rights. And we lost. Remember? "D"

There was a bit more underlying cause for THAT war than mere state rights. Plus, I don't recall being on the losing side. So what's this "we" stuff? -TONY

M16, spoken like a true Texican. Motto: if its in Texas, its for sale. You could also say the fact that KMART sponsered Fat Rosie was purely incidental too. But a lot of us didn't agree. Last I checked, KMART no longer sponsered Fat-Assed Rosie and, for that matter, KMART wasn't doing too good itself.
You got to start somewhere.

So if you people from AZ want to send a messege to the USO then why not ban Out of state Hunters for Elk? Do not try and tell me it cannot be done here in ND the only big game out of state hunters can hunt is deer besides the one Big Horn tag that is sold to the Highest Bidder. In Minnesota Non Res hunters cannot hunt Moose. Call your Gov flood his office with emails and so on. Outdoor Writter you must know enough people to start a group to shut Elk hunting down to for Non Res hunters. That way when the USO realizes that if they start taking states to court they will just ban out of state hunters and the USO will probably let it go because they will lose alot of money. As for the people saying I spend money every year I should be able to hunt on public land well that isnt the case if the state only allows so many tags so get over it believe it or not you might just actually have to be like the rest of us and wait in line I know you think you are special because some of you have money but money cant buy everything and if you want a Elk so bad there are plenty of ranches that will let you buy a tag walk over to the fence and shoot one. Since we are on the subject of money for land what about the farm bill since tax dollars pay for that does that mean I should be able to walk on farmer Bobs land do what I want shoot what I want then leave even if he doesnt want me to because I pay taxes and he recieves money so I should have the right? Maybe that will be the next thing taking private land owners that recieve money from the GOV to court for posting THEIR LAND. I am so sick of rich people thinking they are so God dam special because they have money and think that ELk on the wall is such a trophy because they hired a guide he did all the work they just showed up and pulled the trigger. If you want a trophy get off you ass put the time in do your own research ask land owners do your own scouting then if you get a animal it is a trophy no matter what the size. Maybe we should ban Guided and Outfitter hunting that way people will actually hunt and most lazy people will quit and hunting will actually go back to being what it is supposed to be Hunting not Big Business. Next I will hear what about the Outfitter and his family I say what about the Crack Dealer and his family we do what is right for the whole group not just for some and people if you want hunting around for your kids and I mean real hunting you better learn that OutFitter Hunting needs to go just like the crack Dealer needs to go!!!

You have mostly good points (I think--it's kind of hard following your giant run-on sentences), except it is plain that you don't understand outfitting and guided hunts. While some fit your idea of them, the majority do not, as most guided hunts are just that, hunts. One should be careful about lumping things together that they are not fully knowledgable about.

M16--You're obviously a rich Texan--nothing wrong with that per se, but you should realize that all hunters are not in that catagory. Hunting could easily be priced out of reach of most people by the wealthy if it were allowed to go to a true free market state. There are enough with money that are willing to pay big to dominate the market. That is to a large degree the status in TX--many people simply can't afford to hunt. No, doesn't effect you, but it does many.

And you are very correct--hunting is a privilage, not a right, and people need to realize that and not look at it and treat it as a right.

I own my own business and can afford to spend a lot of money on hunting, but opening all hunting to the highest bidder is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.

M16, when the middle class quits hunting, hunting as we know it will end.

As for run on sentences that is what happends when I get pissed off. Now as for guided hunting why do we need it? All it has done is turn Hunting into big Business and I have seen it plenty I cant even Hunt Phesants in the west part of my state because OutFitters have made deals with the farmers rented all the land and post it up and want to charge 100 bucks a gun a day. I will not pay Money to hunt a place I will help a farmer out buy a gift now and then or give away some sausage but I am not paying to hunt. All that does is drive the price up year after year. It is called do it yourself that is what Hunting is on your own and if you cant handle it stay home. I will give you a example I was bear hunting in MN on my own I went two years in a row never shot a bear. Then a friend of mine pays a guide. The guide does all the baiting scouting even hangs the tree stand and my friend shows up the first night sits in the tree shoots a bear then brags about it? To me that is a kill not a hunt. Now if you hire a guide and he packs you into a area and you have to hunt for game that is hunting yes. But what else happends besides hunting what about when that outfitter locks a big chunk of land up by throwing a bunch of money at land owners or has enough money and influence to get a chunck of land that the goverment owns but he has hunting rights to and controls it like in the Yukon? Or have the balls like some do in this state and rip down the public land signs and post it and charge clients to hunt it? Belive me I know what guided hunting leeds to Money and greed. Now I am not saying all Outfitters are like that and there are some good ones but with like any dispute some nice people are going to get burned. So like I said either people stop and think before they hand over that 5 grand plus 500 dollars for every point the Bull is over 350 B&C or you can kiss real hunting good bye.

The only rich outfitter I ever met was a guy who was rich and essentially retired to be a guide (actually, a PH in Africa).

As for the farmers, hey, it is their land, and they ought to be able to do with it as they please. 100 bucks a day is not a lot of money; hell, I am renting a car next week at 50 bucks a day, and a compact at that. It costs 80 bucks to stay in a motel for crying out loud.

My point is that when public land opportunities go to the highest bidder, hunting is finished.

All the things you talk of are undesirable in my book, but I suspect you are a young guy and there is a lot to learn. Far from all guides/outfitters fit your stereotype, far from it. In fact, often, one has no option but to use a guide. In other cases, the hunting is virtually impossible without a guide, no fault of the guide or outfitter. I tend to agree, in the lower 48, I can't see a need for a guide in but few cases where access is a problem. But there are other areas that no guide, forget it! You're stereotyping guides/outfitters with limited knowledge/experience.

I have to agree with Dakor, up to a point. However, as I'll never be able to afford an outfitter, for me, the point is moot.
M16 brings up a point as well. Hunting is not a right, but a priviledge. How very true. The more money you have the more privileged you are. tell what M16. here's a couple of leads for the best elk hunting in Arizona. Check out the White Mountain Apache reservation or the san Carlos Apache reservation. Three years ago the White mountain elk hunt was a bargain at $12,500, however, I've heard the price wen tup. I didn't bother to ask. The San Carlos Reservation had four left over trophy bull elk hunts going for $25,000 each. All you needed to do was make a phone call.
My wife and I are retired and the income, whether we like it or not is fixed. Most out of state hunts are out of the questions, as even the tag fees are beyond reach. For the most part, we hunt for the meat. We could not care less if a deer or elk's head is bald or has a pine forest growing off the top. To us, every head of game is a trophy of sorts.
I've written to several "play for pay" Texas ranches, because I've heard that they had hunts to cull out inferior deer. Inferior deer would be just fine on my dinner table, but I've been told those only go to their "friends".
So M16, it's that "hooray for me, to hell with you" attitude I've gotten from several of your Lone Star State buddies that has given me a very dim view of the selfish attitude you have. You seem to have that same frame of mind, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't give you any respect. At the age my wife and I have reached, we have few hunting days left to us. Thank you forhelping make it possible we can never do so again.
Paul B.

Arts, your right not all hunters are rich nor are all Texans. I happen to fall in both categories. I find hunting in Texas something of a paradox of �great� places and not being able to afford to hunt or going to �public land� and having to fight the crowds. Thus I do not hunt nearly as much as I would like to. In fact I find that I have to leave the �great state of Texas� just to be able to afford to hunt. Thus there is a down side to the privet lease system. The best I usually hope for in TX is to find a friend or distant relative who will let me hunt one weekend a year. So a draw system might not be so bad, if it was tempered with leases� (Say anyone in TX have a place that a responsible hunter could hunt for something less than an arm and a leg?)

Arts I did not say all guides I said most if you read my post again. But the only way to get rid of the Money and Power hungry ones is to get rid of guiding period. As for impossible nothing is impossible it is how much you are willing to put into it that decides the out come so you go somewhere with out a guide maybe you have to make a few trips before you connect what is wrong with that? I am not saying guided hunts are a sure thing and I know a few good guides that do care about helping people and like the thrill of the hunt. But you look around at 90% of the places and the norm is they care about making lots of money and they will do what ever to get it. How someone can charge you 12,000 g's for a 5 day elk hunt then a trophy fee besides they must have went to the same school as the people that work at Starbucks that teaches you not to laugh for charging 5 bucks for a cup of Coffee. As for my age I am 27 and I have been hunting for 20 years so I have been in the game long enough to understand how it works and these days it business not hunting to most people. As for the comment a 100 bucks is nothing that it might not be compared to the $3000 to $4000 I spend on Hunting and Fishing each year its called pride. I dont know maybe I am to old school. It's like this there are two kinds of men in this world some that like to chase women and some that like to buy them I guess I am the kind that likes to chase them.
PS To any women on the forum no offense I am just trying to break it down into a language most men would understand. The take pride in your hunting was not working for some maybe they will understand the last one.

I would like to understand, Dakor, why any farmer or rancher should feel compelled to let you hunt for free when he can charge 100 bucks?

I don't see how you can even ask to hunt for free if you know the guy relies on hunting for income. I have a friend in MN who runs a game farm and he lets me have the run of the place, but I sure don't want to shoot his leftover birds for free. Hardly qualifies as being a friend.

Wow what a mess. All I have to add is I feel that residents regardless of state should get the majority of the tags avalible in the state they live in. When I apply for a tag in another state I understand that I will have to pay more and most likly wait to get the tag I want, I am an adult and I can deal with this. Even though the wait is no fun and the price is high I feel it is fair. The hostility towards nonresidents where I hunted in Colorado from the locals is bad enough I can not imagine what it would be like if the residents lose more tags to the nonresidents. I do not want to deal with that again.

Well Tony I have hunted 0 times with them like I said I dont believe in it. But I have many friends that have hunted everywhere from Africa to Alaska Guided. So I have heard it first hand some where good some wanted the money and that was about it. As for farmers charging I said Outfitters not farmers and my complaint was outfitters taking big sections of land even state land posting it and charging to hunt. I mean really do a search on the net look at prices and try tell me 90% of the ones out there are not over charging. Look at the prices $4000 for a 5 day mule deer hunt $3500 If you guys want to sit and defend this and that then dont bitch about what happend to you just sit there bend over and take it. Then go ahead and promote it by going on guided hunts using booking agents and so on just dont bitch when it is gone ok? I will always have a place to hunt and I will always hunt even if they ban it I will still hunt but it will be a sad day if the next generation cant go afield because hunting is a rich mans sport and is controlled by Lawyers and courts and the goverment and Outfitters and Booking agents.

Dakor:

Like I said, I don't see any guides getting rich. It is a good thing you are not a purchasing agent for my clients or I would never get what I get when I sell my products and services. Let's put it this way: it is more than your 5 day mule deer hunt, and I deliver a lot less than that mule deer guide. He generally busts his butt. He does what he does because he loves it, not because he is looking to make a fast buck.

Hell, if he wanted to make a fast buck, he would'a went to law school.

Figured that was the case simply from your comments here. It's easy to paint with a broad brush; it's kinda like trying to create a work of art by using a paint-by-numbers approach where someone else outlines the painting and tells you what colors to use. -TONY

Well Tony when you have friends and close ones that spent alot of money and have been on lots of trips I think they are going to tell you the truth about how it was good or bad and I think I will take their word over a outdoor writter who likes the sound of his own voice and the way his text looks. As for not getting rich hmm yes I do believe the USO they are all broke and Tripple 7 Ranch I bet they cant even buy a Happy Meal at the end of the week. I suppose the Game Farm 30 miles from here that buys a bull elk for 300 dollars maybe spends a 2000 dollars to feed him over 3 to 4 years and then they let him go in fence so someone can shoot him. That person pays $8000 dollars just to shoot him and $1000 dollar trophy fee if he is over 300 wich 90% of his elk are. So that is $9000.00 -2300 = $6700 I bet he doesnt make any money either right? None of them do but that is why they all do it every year they dont make money they do it for the better of man kind right? I think the two outdoor writters have their hands in the cookie jar or are just to lazy to go out and do it on there own. Tony stop right there with your boring ass come back at least make it interesting or funny I can take it. What I cant take is someone boring me.

I apologize for my "boring ass" comments. Considering the examples you presented, it appears you didn't understand the comments anyway. In fact, your reply went right to my point. -TONY

Dakor:



I do not write full time (it pays less than being a guide), and trust me, I don't get free $5000 hunts. My hand, unlike some (and I don't mean Tony), is not in the cookie jar.



But I do agree the whole issue with USO is getting rich at the expense of other hunters and the resource. As I said before, when the average guy in Ohio has no dream of hunting in the West, hunting is done for.



So you think I am lazy and never hunt on my own? In case you want the lowdown on what I have shot on my own, here is some:



4 bull elk (including a 6x7 and 6x6) and not in AZ either

1 spike elk

1 grizzly bear

5 dall sheep

13 caribou

1 moose

5 black bears

and a boatload of antelope and deer



The grizzly and sheep I shot when stationed in the Army in Alaska (got an extended tour) and did not require a guide.



Give it a rest.

All I am going to say is sorry guys I should not have slammed you I have more class than that but it seemed like my age was more of a issue than my experiance. As for hunting I hunt whitetails and last year on the last day I arrowed #72 This fall I will be going Elk hunting for the first time and next fall I will be going to Alaska for Moose and Brown Bear my sister moved there so I will not need a guide. I am going to start hunting Elk, Moose and Brown Bears and Whitetails a little less.

Amen! Ready for a malpractice JD in the white house Brother?

Dakor,



Meant to ask:



Where are you going to be elk hunting?



You're fortunate to have your sister in AK for the bear hunting. Wish I had a relative there.



Only thing I've hunted in AK so far is barren ground caribou. I got a 60" moose and mountain 'bou in northern BC, a central BG 'bou in the NWT, and three black bears in southern BC over the years, though.



The one time I did hunt grizz in BC, I turned down a sow and smallish boar. Then last spring, hunting the same area, my 42-yr. old son and I watched a sow and a monster silver-tip boar for 1/2-hour from about 300 yards away. Unfortunately, that area is now on a quota and neither of us had a grizz tag. -TONY

Tony:

I just went for a 4 mile run - man is it hot out there - 105 or 106. Brought two water bottles with cold water and soaked myself with hose before I left. Went coyote hunting at 4 am, so it is already a long day.

Dakor:
Spend some money and buy some air charter time. But if you can't shoot me a PM and I will tell you where I shot my bear - I drove in for that.

Tony I understand there are lots of costs and yes most Outfitters are not out to suck you dry but the ones that are put a black eye on hunting. As for Elk hunting I am going with my Father In Law he drew a Cow tag for North Dakota out by Killdeer. I wont be pulling the trigger but it should be a blast and A nice change from chasing Whitetails I am kinda getting burnt out on them and for what I spend chasing them I could go on some bigger hunts wich I have always wanted to do. When I turn 50 God willing I want to hunt Black Death in Africa (What a Birthday Present ) So I will have to break down and use a guide and it will be probably be about 15 grand but for my 50th what the hell!!

If you can get to Africa at 50, gofer it. Heck, I had to wait until I was 62 but finally got there in 2003. Didn't hunt Black Death, though, but I was happy with the 12 plains game critters I did kill. Then I finally got to New Zealand for tahr, red stag and chamois about 6 weeks ago. That was a blast. In fact, enjoyed it as much or more than Africa.



Unfortunately, there are bad apples in every barrel, as the adage goes. And most industries, including outfitting, aren't any different. In my opinion, however, I think there are far more good ones than bad ones.



Incidentally, I actually hunted archery elk in NM with USO quite a few years ago. A friend booked the hunt, though. At that time, Taulman was just getting started and wasn't quite as gungho as now. The hunt itself was very decent and not over-priced for what was provided. -TONY

With all due respect -- you're NUTS!!!!

Had a guy ask me if I wanted to go out to the White Tanks late this afternoon to get some mule deer pix, and I told him the same thing. -TONY