since i have a .308, i'd like to post some observations and advice. i believe that the .308 is the most versatile rifle there is; followed very closely by the .30-06. mine is a herter's mj9 (yugoslavian mauser manufactured by zastava in the mid-sixties) topped with a tasco (phillipines, NOT china) 3-9x44mm scope. it is a good all-around combo for anything i am likely to hunt in montana, from pronghorn antelope , to mule deer , to whitetail deer to elk . the first thing i will say is practice practice practice!

regarding "point blank range," i would suggest a 250-yard zero, which will put you in an 8-inch kill zone out to 300 yards. a 200-yard zero is fine, but a 250-yard zero will compensate for any error in estimating range. i STRONGLY recommend going to www.huntingnut.com and downloading the free POINT BLANK program. play around with it a little and learn a few things about ballisitics. not only is it fun, but it will prepare you for the field, helping you to kow exactly what your rifle can do. before i got this program, i had visions of popping mulies at 600 yards with my .308.....this program woke me up, and made me a little more aware of what a rifle can do, and do WELL, as long as you know its limits.

with a .308, i would say that 165 grain is optimum up to mule deer. 150's are more than adequate, but it doesn't hurt to adjust the percentages in your favor.

for elk and larger, you definitely want to at least look into using 180-grain. 165's would probably be fine for a broadside kill-shot, but the 180's would penetrate much better and pack a little more punch, which is a plus when going after big animals which can run fast and disappear into thin air after they are wounded, but not killed outright.

regarding ammunition, "rolling your own" is probably the best option. you can tailor the bullet, load and other factors to your rifle, and achieve some very surprising accuracy. for 20$, you can buy a lee loader in .308 and see for yourself. along with the lee loader, i would recommend forking out an extra 13$ for the two-piece case trimmer and lock stud combination made by lee. this is really all you need to start loading very consistant ammunition that will be much better than factory. if that milsurplus ammo you bought for practice has a standard "boxer" primer, SAVE THAT BRASS and reload! you will save money and have a great time, and have great ammunition. if it is berdan-primed, then take it to the recycler and invest a little $dinero$ in some virgin winchester, federal or remington brass.

if you choose not to reload, any factory ammunition will be adequate, especially since you have a newer, quality rifle. remington , winchester and federal are proven names with good stuff. the pointed soft points (spitzers) are the best all-around choice for any game.

bullet selection. the top two that i would suggest for game up to and including mule deer are hornady interlocks and sierra gamekings , both in the boat-tail variety. this is not the most popular choice, but i believe that the boat tail gives you a distinct advantage at ranges past 200 yards. even if you don't plan to shoot past 200 yards, it is not always easy to judge distances, and the boat tail might make up for the error. one guy, whom i trust, said that he had some dramatic failures with the interlock system, but i believe that these were due to the extreme velocities that he was pushing in his rifle, and the older-style interlocks were simply not designed for it. premium bullets ( nosler partitions , trophy bonded bear claws , barnes x bullets )are a good idea on black bear as well as elk-sized game and larger, but not always necessary. once again, it is a good idea to adjust the percentages in your favor, and a premium bullet will do this for large or dangerous game.

ballistic tips by nosler and SST bullets by hornady are great for antelope and deer, but i personally do not trust them on elk-and larger-sized game. this does not mean that they don't work, it simply means that i don't know anything about their performance on large game. one thing is for sure, those b-tips with boattails will fly as fast and far and flat as the .308 will push them. for mule deer, this could give you the edge. for any b-tip style bullet i would suggest at least 165-grain and NOT 150's. a 150-grain b-tip MIGHT work fine, but under some conditions i believe that they are closer to varmint bullets, and when making meat it is best not to take the chance.

in case yuo are wondering about one bullet that would serve as an all-around bullet to cover any situation, there is none, but the closest thing to it for the .308 would probably be the 165-grain partition. you can load the nosler partition, or winchester makes this in factory ammo in their " supreme " line.

Tas, it is very dificult to disagree with any aspect of your post. However, since I do have experience with Ballistic Tips at both .308 and .30 cal magnm velocity, I would not hesitate to hunt elk with the Winchester factory loaded 168 gr Ballistic Silver Tip. It has proven to be phenomenally accurate in many rifles and is likely to exit on broadside through-the-ribs shots at .308 velocity on all but the closest shots.

The .30-06 is easily more versatile than the .308, and the various .300 magnums are more versatile yet.

AD

It seems you are either in the .308 camp or the 30/06 camp, I like the 30/06 better than the .308 personally. But horses for courses.

the only edge that i can see the .30/06 having over the .308 is the fact that you can load slightly heavier bullets for the /06. this is true, but i feel that the availablility of cheap ammo which the .308 enjoys offsets that advantage, because if you place a 165 where it is supposed to go, it is more effective than a 220 in the butt. some might say that the 100fps difference in velocity is an advantage for the /06, but i have never seen a difference in the field. certainly the deer do not notice. coversely, some have said that the .308 and its short action are more "inherently accurate" than the long-action .30/06. this may or may not be true.

i was faced with the choice between the two, and went with the .308 due to ammunition availability for practice. it is a choice that i would make again, and the reason why i give a (ver) slight edge in versatility to the .308. if you are going after something that NEEDS a 220-grain bullet, then it isn't in north america!

I own 308s 06s and a bunch of others. But would you really want to face a big brown bear with your 308 when there are much better calibers for that out there. Yes a 220gr or bigger would be nice on something that can eat you and and weighs a 1000lbs plus.

Yes it could be done if all went well but when something went wrong I would like something bigger then the 308.

i'm not trying to be argumentative, because to each his own, but if a big grizzly bear were charging me at under a hundred yards, i really don't think 100fps and 20 grains would make a difference, especially given today's bullet choices. i could be wrong, because i have never had that happen to me. either way, confidence in my rifle and skills would mean much more than anything else. either way, as you correctly stated, a .308 would probably not be the first choice. my reasons for calling the .308 versatile were not because it was best for everything, but because it is, in my opinion, best for the widest variety of situations. a .338RUM is just a little too much for coyotes, but probably just fine for polar bear.



some people are crazy enough to hunt big bears with 6.5x55mm rifles, and to me that is ridiculous, but i would not feel undergunned with a .308.

Keep in mind that bear hunting is not the same as defending yourself while butchering a moose or fishing in the wrong stream. When hunting bear you can wait for the shot angle at the distance you are comfortable with. Also on the hunts I have been on a guide was required, and was armed with a "bear stopper". I was confident carrying a .338WinMag as a young teenager though something was always not right (too close, too far, bad fur, etc)for me to take a bear with it. The only griz I ever shot was at 180 yds with the .270Win/130SGK while on leave after Beirut on the last hunt with my dad away from home territory. After impact he traveled about the length of his own body. I have no doubt the .308Win/168grBST would do as well.

This topic deserves it's own thread, but if I were defending myself against the bear I would want a 12 ga autoloader shotgun with slugs or a lever action .45-70, and a trustworthy buddy similarly equipted.

btt, for wstrnhntr's benefit.

Thanks Tasunkawitko,

I agree with most of what you said with the exception of the 180 grainers for Elk. The 165 is clearly a better fit in a 308 and something like a 165 grn Barnes TS for instance, would probably penetrate "Better" than a Nosler 180 from a 308 at ranges over 200 yds.

To me, this all comes under the heading of what our own personal oppinion is. I'm with Allen though, I feel for my wants and uses that I'd take a 300 first and then a 06 and then a 308.

Personally, the only interest I have in the 308 round would be a very tiny and petite rifle for some fairly intense and hard hunting country. If absolute lightness were the key then I would take a look at the 308. And that is where it would fit into my world of hunting and the way I hunt and the country I hunt in.

Then again this is my way of thinking and not meant to be anyone else's.

As for the 338 RUM being too much for yotes, I can't say as I agree with this. I've shot quite a pile of yotes using a 340 (IMO the same as a 338 RUM). To date I've yet to of killed a yote and thought that it was too much gun whatever the heck that may be. Out of curiousity Tas--- what kind of a 338 RUM have you used and how many times have you taken it for yotes?

Just my thoughts, jeez we must be all bored as heck to being on the puter instead of outside. Speaking of which I am heading out after bruins.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

mark -



i don't have to shoot a .338RUM (do they even exist?) to know that something like that would be "too much" for coyotes. too much powder, to much lead in the air and too much expense compared to a .308 or similar cartridge. they point i was trying to make was VERSATILITY, and cost-effectiveness is a part of versatility.



out of curiosity, where were you born and when did you move to montana from there?



i do ahve to agree that it is too nice a day to be having armchair discussions about thing we ought to be doing outside anyway.

In reality a .308 with a 18 inch barrel is basically a 300 Savage, and thats not bad as the old 300 Sav. was a fair to middlin elk and deer rifle within its scope. the .308 Win is one of my favorite all time calibers along with the 7x57, but there are better elk rifles out there.

The .308 is plenty of elk gun when used properly and that is for broadside or near broadside shots at under 250 yards..

The 30-06 with a 200 gr. Nosler is probably a better elk caliber and the 300 is a better than the 30-06 and the .338 is better than the 300...Thats why we have them...

I don't use my 308s on elk anymore as the elk have gotten smart with all the hunting pressure in my home state of Idaho and they head for the black holes when the first shot goes off..and thats thick nasty steep timber...I use a 338 with 300 gr. woodleighs in that stuff and shoot them lengthwise as a rule, and I want them down quick so they don't run off down in one of those bottomless drainages...and if I was hunting where ranges could be 300 or better then the 300 with 200 gr. Noslers or 338 with 210 Noslers would certainly be my first choice...

But if you modify your hunting technique to match the .308, it will certainly work just fine on elk...and its a superb deer caliber, but so many folks that use light rifles try to over extend them I think, but then they would probably do the same with whatever they shot..

In all honesty I have seen more elk wounded with the lighter guns than I have with the magnums, and I suppose most of those woundings were poor shooting and/or poor bullet choice with the lighter calibers and folks trying to make them into something they were never intended to be..

I think I have done 50% of all shooting in my life with

30-06 caliber.Its my favorite cal,I know it well,its trajectory and power.In moose hunt its superb,when I partisipate in bearhunt,30-06 would be the absolute minimum,I take my .375.. I have this .375 because its trajectory is wery similar with 30-06,which I can shoot.

I dont want to risk my ass

Im now 49yrs,shoten 40 yrs taken down lots of moose.

I have discussed with hunters during the years of our favorite cals,lots of hunters keep the .308 light for moose,its just on the limit if y are honest.For bear I would newer take .308, maybe my 45-70 loaded upto 5000J energy,but its a single so its out of question

When I have my 375 in my hands,I feel that I can face whatewer in the buch.



Elias

>>>most of those woundings were poor shooting and/or poor bullet choice with the lighter calibers and folks trying to make them into something they were never intended to be..<<<



ray, i will bow to your experience here, because i am lacking in it and because i am always ready to learn, but if i remember correctly, wasn't the .308 designed as a "replacement" for the .30/06? i realize that it gives up 100-150fps in velocty, and this makes bullets heavier than 180-grains undesireable, but i can not honestly see where a .308 would be undergunned for elk, unless a person were attempting an end-to-end or deep quartering shot. if this were the case, my opinion would be to wait for a "better" shot. i also realize that the .308 was designed for replacement as a "military" cartridge, and military applications might be different than hunting applications as far as what an acceptable "replacement" means.



my own .308 has a 24" barrel, and i can see where an 18" barrel would be a hinderence for longer shots, but i really don't see where the .308 is undergunned for elk out to around 200, perhaps 250 yards. at this range, i believe that the bullet would still carry 3/4 of a ton of energy (this with a 180-grain bullet!), according to winchester. frankly, it seems to me that if jack o'connor's wife can make elk drop like flies with a 7x57mm and 160-grain bullets, then the .308 shouldn't have any trouble either, especially with 165 premium or 180-grain standard bullets.



having said all of this, i understand that paper performance is much different than on-game performance, so as i said, i bow to your experience. it just seems to me that the .308 is plenty of gun. no reason NOT to get a "bigger" one, of course! it would be boring if there were only one choice! to be perfectly honest, if i would ahve chosen the .30/06 over the .308, i probably would have written the same thing for it that i did for the .308. i think we all tend to feel a need to defend what we own, even though someone else's choice would work just as well!

Elias, I am curious as to what is the average weights of the Moose and bear that you have taken in Finland........DJ

Djpaintless...
Bears and mooses are in average little smaller here in Europe than on yr side of the pond

Biggest bear I know weighted 350kg,record bear size in Finland is around 450kg.(maybe bigger ewen)
Last autumn fellas shot one bear 500yds of my cottage,male bear weighted 212kg,would say ann average size fullgrown bear.Sofar I have not taken down bear myself,maybe some day
Bears are protected and regulated,annually aprox 100 bears are taken down in Finland..
Last year approx 80,000 mooses+20,000 deers was taken down here.

Moose..can grow here upto 700kg.. my personal record moose I took down 10.11 2002 at 9.20am close Russian border,it weighted approx 560kg,ten spikes bull.Clean meat weight was 282kg (1 pound = 0.453kg)

Elias

Tasunkawito,
Hey pard, I have never said the 308 or the 30-06 is not a elk rifle, they are without a doubt, but I don't think they have the versatality of a 338 for example...

If I came to visit you and you said lets go elk hunting and handed me a 25-35, 30-30, 250 Savage or .308, I would be content but I would have to hunt within their limits, and I have. I don't mind that...in fact I like doing most of my hunting before the kill and the less rifle I pack the more likely I am to do just that....

My yearly Idaho deer hunt behind my house in Unit 54, the So. Hills is mostly with a 25-35 Win Rifle...

I also think the 30-06 to be the best all around caliber ever made and that speaks kudus for the 308..I own two .308s and one 30-06..

But I love the 338, 9.3x62 and 375 with heavy bullets in the thick timber for my elk hunting, it is a better gun for this sort of work, as I want to punch them through lengthwise and get them down before the go to the bottom. The 338 will put an elk down quicker than my 308 will, but both will kill..