Gents:
My research to develop my new 300RUM bullet launcher progressed to hit bullet selection again.Having read a great deal on this forum,I am almost educated.I do see a fundamental problem though and would like to listen to people that might have practical experience or other comments.I would like to apologize to all who consider any hunting beyond 250y or so as unsporty or otherwise despicable and unworthy,I happen to hunt in different circumstances were closer distances are often unattainable.
The original goal was to dvlp a bullet launcher that had a flatter trajectory,enabling shots "further out"
The 300RUM trajectories are truly much flatter then 30/06 or .338 Mags and share this characteristic c some other RUM's and maybe Weatherby Mags.
If one selects and finds a bullet that allows a small MOA then a long distance shot possibly can be considered,so lets assume this is not a problem as it can be measured at the bench.
My current question arises out of the realization that RUM's are NOT the all-around guns I had envisioned- because I only considered the problem of sofar unwise long range shots.The problem seems to be that one can either carry a long range rifle or a "convential" one,the reason being the bullet speeds.
The core of my question is to find a bullet that performs on game lets say from 100y to 500y or so,not discussing other realities but the ability to kill the game efficiently.
To my readings most current bullets perform in a range of 2200 fps to 2800fps to a variable degree.To characterize my impression:there are "hard" bullets that have minimal core deforming and deep penetration as well as good retention:Barnes X,GS HV,Jensen J36
then there are Premium bullets c a lead core that are middle of the road:they deform but loose some mass,penetration is medium
Nosler Partition,Speer GrandSlam,Hornady Interlock,Swift A-Frame and Scirocco,Bear Claws
thirdly there are "soft" bullets:Sierra GK,Nosler Ballistic etc with thin jackets
problem:they might not survive the required twist or speed,they fragment on impact and have inadequate penetration.
Even these generalizations are often "proven"incorrect.
Without wanting to start the argument,the task-should anyone be so bold as to accept it- is to find a bullet that can perform from 100y to 600y which translates into speeds as muzzle 3200-3500fps
200y: 2800-3000 fps
300y: 2600-2800 fps
400y: 2450-2500 fps
500y: 2270-2350 fps
these for bullets in 180gr and 165 gr maybe dn to 130 gr for the monolithic variety.

The Barnes type bullet is said to loose its petals at > 2700 fps making a narrow channel only
Premium convential bullets:lead tipped bullets are said to melt at ~3300 fps at the tip making the bullet unsymmetric in flight
On impact at high speed they deform "too much" or not enough because of their high energy,basically punching thru without causing much damage.This does not take into consideration "meat damage" from energy transfer but is based on Phone book targets.

To clarify my concern another way:A monolithic bullet,particularily in small deer type target ,broadside high speed impact will have a very narrow wound channel and not much damage?
A Softer bullet will have proper expansion at medium speeds,at high speeds will fragment and maybe cause too much "meat" damage
Or putting it another way yet:with most "convential"guns to 300y we had to have bullets that perform from 2900 to 2200 fps
for RUM's we need bullets that perorm from 3400 fps to 2200 fps.Perform does not mean punch little holes thru but kill.
Your entries will be appreciated

thanks
sheephunter

SheepHunter,

You are going to give yourself brainache if you keep that up.

You cannot have everything, this is why we have so many different bullet manufacturers who make such a wide variety of projectiles.
If you want to go to long range and you might get in close then choose your projectile with that in mind. I am moving away from lead bullets since the technology for the monometal projectiles is maturing rapidly. Not too long from now I see selective heat treatments on the bullets to give varying degrees of softness and toughness so they will perform like a lead at long range and a tough monometal at close range.
I know I haven't helped you but try to see at which range you have the highest probability of shooting and choose your projectile. Keep a couple of rounds for close in your pocket if the possibility arises. Also, read what Lazzeroni has to say about bullets at long range.
www.lazzeroni.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sheephunter:
Sheephunter,
The Swift A-Frames, Barnes and HV's should all be up to the task. 470 Mbogo

Sheephunter,
Have you considered the FailSafe bullet by Combined Tech(Nosler&Win). Three weight choices in 30cal -150,165,180. If you don't like the bullet's coating-remove it. I load these bullets for a friend in 7Rem Mag, he's had excellent performance at long range. sure-shot

sheephunter,

I am afraid I am one of those who do not like long range shots, although I am also guilty of doing so sometimes.

The furthest animals I have shot was an eland at what we estimated to be over 500 yards.

I used a wildcat of my own, it is a shortened 404 case and necked down to 270 caliber. I used the Jensen 150 grain bullet, starting off at around 3300 fps.

I have no idea what speed it was doing at 500 yards, but the eland was shot twice, both through his shoulders. One bullet went completely through, and the other we recovered from the animal.

For any of the hot cartridges, I would not consider using any of the normal soft point bullets. In fact, I would not use any normal soft points for any of my hunting, except varmints of course.

I would use partitioned bullets, bullets that have a solid shank - like the Bear Claws and Jensens, and those made from solid copper like the Barnes X and the GS bullets.

Penetration is more important than expansion, as far as I am concerned.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

My experience with long range hunting has taught me many things, some of them about bullets and impact velocities. That you are discussing/questioning this is an important consideration and an indication of your dedication to hunting and understanding long range hunting.

As Roger Rothschild stated, you can't have everything, A bullet that holds together at high velocity MAY NOT expand at low velocity as you know.

I agree with Saeeds' statement that penetration is more important than expansion.

Shooting animals at long range is different in several aspects, bullet performance is only one of these issues.

When I hunt in multiple terrain areas I carry two different loads, long range and short range. If the terrain is such that the animal will be inside 100 yards I use Nosler Partitions and keep one in the chamber, once I get to the open area I remove the Partition round and have my long range load in place.
Nosler Partitions are actually a pretty good long range bullet, if the rifle likes them. The partition allows the bullet to hold together at very high velocity impact and yet it's soft enough to expand to a full mushroom at distances over 500 yards. The BC is not too good and this is the reason I personally don't shoot them for long range.

I believe you'll find that you're not going to have a wide a selection as you'd like for bullet selection. Accuracy is very important and some bullets don't fly well and others have very different characteristics based on LOT to LOT comparisons.

The MOST important issue for long range hunting is shot placement, double lung shots on calm non-moving animals generally being the shot of choice.

I've shot some of Warren Jensen's bullets and believe they're very good, I haven't tried the GS bullets but have no reason to believe not an excellent bullet. You may be able to contact them and have them specifically heat treat or alter alloy for a custom bullet for you.

Here's a site that's dedicated to long range hunting and probably has several posts about this very topic.

www.LongRangeHunting.com

Thanks gentemen,
for your considerate advice.I perused the links cited and they are helpful.Selecting a usable bullet for the range of 100-600y should indeed maybe start only from a complement of "accurate" bullets,simply because one first has to get there,then worry about doing their dirty deed.Accurate reproducible performance narrows the selection of bullets considerably and many entries are indeed BR bullets,known to be accurate but having a questionable performance,I am thinking of sierra BT,GK,
Nosler partitions.They might be the best getting there but do they hold up? at 3300 fps or do enough damage at 2200 fps in a 165 gr bullet configuration?
The S Scirocco is an unknown to me but maybe a happy medium?
The Nosler Partition is my old standby,performs well probably over the energy spectrum but has only medium to unproven accuracy to 600y.
Barnes and Failsafe seem to have a following but also a respectable unreliability in terms of reproducible accuracy?
Which leaves the monolithic custom bullets from GS and NorthFork?
Most longrange shooters somehow avor the accurate sierra GK,but they are not considering short range performance at 3400-3000 fps in 165 gr.Same with the N Ballistic's
Maybe the answer is to carry 2 bullets,carry one for the lucky 100 -250 y shot in Nosler partition or Scirocco etc,carry the sierra GK
or other BR bullets for 300-600y

sheephunter

i shoot the 300 rum with the 180 balistic tip at 3435. i have killed 5 whitetails with this load.the ranges were 6,35,150,225 and310 yards.although the wounds were massive the deer all dropped in there tracks.the lightest was 130 dressed and the heaviest was 190 dressed
imho a 180 30 cal at 3435 will kill any deer at any angle.the shock will paralize them if nothing else.
for elk or moose size critters i would use the 200 partition at 3200.

Sure shot --How do you get the coating off the fail safe bullet??? MD

Sheephunter,
I shoot the .338 Ultra Mag with Nosler partitions and ballistic tips. That will soon change however, because where I hunt, the ranges can be from 10ft. to 700yds...The Noslers are just to destructive at close range and high velocity. I shot my deer at about 125yds this year, bullet velocity was about 300fps, bullet was 210gr Partition. The damage was very extensive, and I will have to throw most of the backstraps away. (story and pics under "the 444shooter's pics") However, a doe that I shot with my friend's .308 Warbird, had virtually no bloodshot/damaged meat and blew the lung out of the exit hole. Yes, barnes and failsafe have a following, because they are proven performers...much like all the rest of the bullets mentioned. However, I would lean more towards these bullets (barnes, fail safe) in a fast/flat shooting caliber, especially in cases where you aren't sure how far you will be shooting...they sure will get the job done at 500yds, and they Damn sure will get the job done at 40yds. Of course you've heard bad things about accuracy, as everyone has, but until you actually try the barnes bullets (try the XLC's they work great), you'll never know how your gun likes them. My friend shoots the .308 Warbird w/ 165gr XLC's and gets sub .5 MOA with that bullet. It will cut holes!!!!! The monolithic bullets will hold together, and penetrate, which like Saeed said, is very important. They will give you a better blood trail to follow and if they hit bone (i.e. shoulder), will penetrate completely and break the offside shoulder, hampering the animal's getaway even more. VERY important on game like elk. "You cannot have everything" as it has already been stated, but you can use a monolithic bullet that will do the job at any distance, and give you a little more security because you can be 95% sure that it will penetrate.

Point: At high velocities, and uncertain shooting ranges, "I" believe that monolithic bullets (mainly barnes) are up to the job.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

[This message has been edited by the444shooter (edited 12-17-2001).]

Thanks again for sharing results
it appears some of my concerns met verification in the field,namely that one of the problems shooting a RUM is shooting at close distances,<200y or so with soft bullets.I realy had no concern that they would kill in this setting.I was more worried that they would blow up so bad and create huge wounds,ruining meat and the cape.
I did not expect the Nosler Partition to do the same -so thats good to know.
Beyond 300y the energy has come dn and the wounds compare c regular loads,which for the soft bullets might mean lack of penetration or bullet failure.
So maybe the best answer is to go c monolithics,they always punch thru c narrow wound channels.Here though I am equally concerned at short range.The wound channel is probably quite narrow if bone is not hit.
Of course there is this shock phenomenon around the actual wound channel.I believe Ray Atkinson wrote someplace that meat destruction would be excessive with high velocity low weight cartridges due to this shock.

So what is the "best"solution to this dilemma?Maybe a somewhat subdued load in a monolithic for short range to 200y and a hot load beyond that-- if one can get the bullet to shoot with a small MOA.
If accuracy for monolithics cannot be obtained in the barrel,for long distance one might have to go to either N Partitions or the more accurate N Ballistic tip or Sierra line.With all their shortcomings in regards to expansion,at least they would get there which is always the first task.
So I will try to see whether my barrel will shoot the Barnes XLC X in 168 gr reliably
an alternative being the Failsafe without the Molybdenium sulfide.If these wont perform one can move on to GS HV or Jensen's J36 bullets for more money.

How does this evaluation sound to you?
thanks
sheephunter

Sheephunter,
Sounds great, in theory, however what happens when you have a "hot" round in your magazine, and you see a deer at 30yds? Are you going to politely ask him to wait so you can load a different bullet? That would be the only problem I could see with your solution. I sitll stand by my thought that a monolithic bullet pushed by any load will do the job at any range. If I were you, I would work up a load with 165 or 180gr XLC's...but that's just me

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

Maddog,
Soak em in Jasco paint remover(gold & red can). After a few minutes that coating will brush off with the help of an old toothbrush. Rinse well and finish off in the tumbler. If you toss em in the tumbler first it will take awhile and you ruin your media. Keep in mind the Faisafe is supposedly made of homogenous copper which means you should seat .030" min from the lands. sure-shot

sure-shot,
thanks for the recipe,will try it.
I dont like the MoS coverings on bullets either,heard too many bad things about it, though in a stainless barrel its probably safe.Its also suppossed to gum up the barrel worse than just from powder+copper.
The worst:Its supposed to be unwise to switch back and forth between copper and MoS coated projectiles.I guess one does not have a reproducible barrel with it.
So given these opninions,none tried by me,what experience did you have with the coated and cleaned bullets,also how do you clean barrels when you use coated stuff,or should I say when do you clean it.

thanks

sheephunter

Saeed:
Appreciate your experience.Can you possibly share more knowledge of the Jensen 150 grain bullet,if you are shooting from 3300 fps you pretty much describe my concern.How does this setup work at 100y?
2: how does the J36 compare to GS 150 gr or the Barnes,both in MOA as well as perormance?

Thanks again

sheephunter

sheephunter,
I shoot both kinds (coated and uncoated) of bullets out of my .338 Ultra, and no problems thus far...I've had some great groups with this gun SO FAR. But, if any problem arises, I'll be sure to let you know...but as for now, there seems to be no difference in groups. Keep in mind though, I haven't cleaned my barrel between shooting either of them. I'll let you know how hard it is to clean when I do it (should be this week sometime, after finals)

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

Sure-Shot I am not sure what you mean about the bullet needs to be .030 off. Why is this bullet different than others. Please explain.. MD

Interesting thread.... That really is a lot to ask from a bullet and there aren't many that can do it (well at least).

While I do think the monolithics won't cause quite as much meat damage at close range/high velocities as regular bullets (mainly because the entire front half of the bullet won't literally explode) I do want to point out that at those velocities any bullet will cause a huge amount of damage if you hit anything significant.

On my last deer, I barely clipped the back of both shoulders with a 130 XBT with a muzzle velocity of 3663 at around 200 yds. Both shoulders were pretty much toast. Not only was the exit hole huge but the entrance hole was about as big! That kind of velocity is going to do damage no matter what bullet you use.

That said, I do think the X bullets are a good choice (if they are accurate in your rifle). I've used 130's, 180's and 200's on deer in my 300 Win from ranges less than 100 yds out to a distance I'm embarassed to say (poor judgement on my part...should have never pulled the trigger...learned my lesson). Anyway, they always made a big hole all the way through and exited. Not much more you could ask for.

But just for the heck of it, since I'm having the 300 rechambered from Win to RUM and will have the joy of working up brand new loads this year, with all the quality premium bullets available since the last time I loaded any ammo I think I'll have to try some different ones.... My rifle shoots the X's "OK" but nothing to bragg about. I'm looking for something a bit more accurate (I'll also be trying the XLC's for the first time, maybe my rifle will like them better) but for whatever bullet I choose terminal performance will have to be at least as good as the X's.

FWIW,
Bullet performance and point of aim (or drop if you will) are the least of your concerns beyond 300 yards. The wind is your biggest enemy. How much will you bullet drift left, or right? If you doubt this try some 500 yard targets on a gusty day. A 10 mph cross wind will throw your bullets 20" or more off target. The problem is being able to read the wind correctly. Then being able to apply the correct amount of adjustment. So be sure to buy an extra barrel or two and after you've worn out the first barrel and are maybe halfway into the second barrel you'll begin to be a good long range shot with a sense for the wind. Like range, wind is seldom a constant. Its rarely a simple calculation... Experience and "feel" count for a whole lot more.