Question on bullet performance. What bullet design is better in terms of meat destruction? My Uncle shoots a 30-06 with 150 grain Winchester premium partition Golds and I shoot a 280 REM with 140 grain Remington Cor-Loks, we have not been satisfied with how much meat is destroyed when we shoot a deer, a lot of damage on the entry side?? He hit a doe last week right in the heart at 80 yards, however her front leg that was toward him was back and the bullet clipped her �elbow�, we had to throw out the entire front leg and most of the entry side shoulder from the bruising, the exit side had a 2� hole through ribs with little bruising. She went 25 yards. I hit a doe two weeks ago that was almost facing me at 140yards, bullet went in between her breast bone and shoulder, took out both lungs, broke 8 ribs in a row on the off side and exited just in front of the off side ham (thank goodness), she went down like a stone. We had to throw away her entire front end on the entry side and one rib cage. We have differing opinions that I am hoping someone here can straighten out. He wants to go to 125 grain bullets, thinking smaller and lighter = less damage (maybe even change calibers to a 243 next year) and I think we should be going to at least tougher bullets if not heavier to try to �punch� through the deer rather than shock it. We hunt in the East Central area of Saskatchewan Canada. The Whitetail rifle season has been open here for almost three weeks (with just over two to go). We are allowed one antlerless and one any sex tag each. Before we shoot our bucks this year we were thinking of trying to solve this bullet dilemma, so if anyone can offer any advice or experiences I would appreciate it.
my simple advice is that you should use heavier and slower bullets. They have push enough to knock the game down and to punch neat holes without making a lot of useless mincemeat at the hit.
Try a 160 grains round nose in your .280 and your uncle would do better with 180 grains or 220 grains, both round nose, in his .30-06.
The higher velocity and the lighter bullets you have, the more meat will be destroyed. But higher bullet weights and lower velocities leave more meat for eating.
Good luck!
Fritz
Posts: 846 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 19 April 2001
What Fritz said about lighter and faster is a fact. That would just insure more destruction. 160 Remington Cor-Lokts work great.
Personally, I use 140 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in my .280. They have quite a reputation for being meat mashers, but I haven't seen evidence of this. Sure some is ruined from a high velocity, close range shoulder shot. I try for the heart/lung area, but have hit a few in the scapula and I only lost a few ounces.
Sure is a lethal combo though. Maybe a dozen or so with it and they all dropped in their tracks.
------------------ Say what you mean, and mean what you say.
Thanks guys Ol Sarge, I have a box of Winchester Premium Balistic Silvertips that I was going to use for coyotes, Do you think they would be better than the Cor-loks? Shawn
i would rather lose some meat as to have to track the animal and maybe lose it.the heavy slow bullets may save you some meat but tend not to flatten a deer sized animal like the lighter fast ones.
Once while working in a sportinggoodws store a customer had the same commplant about his 300 weatherby mag. He wanted to shoot 110 gr bullets instead of partitions. I refused to sell them to him. I also could not convince him that a 110 gr bullet would evaporate on deer sized game at 3500 fps. Leaving a open surface wound. As for the heaver bullets not flattening as well as faster lighter bullets, one must rember that round nose bullets upset faster than spitzer bullets. Thus the wound channel is larger sooner.
The faster you drive a bimetal bullet, the more it breaks up on impact, and the more meat you will lose. The key here is bullet break-up not speed. Example: Fire three bullets from a 30-06, all three at 2900 fps muzzle velocity, and all three impact on the animal in the same place. Distance is 50 paces. The first is a 150 grain match hollow point and as we all know, it will come apart badly and cause a lot of meat destruction. The second is a bonded core 150 grain round nose, and there are no prizes for guessing that less meat will be wasted. The third is a monometal bullet of 150 grains, and I will bet any mount of cash it will have the least meat damage of the three. Meat damage is caused by bullet fragmentation, not speed.
Ol Sarge Would the polymer tip on the ballistic tip bullets ensure a clean entry with less surface bruising like we are experiencing now? Or would the begin to expand immediately on contact??
I wouldn't worry about premiumm bullets for deer. Go heavy for caliber (ie 180 grainers in 30.06) and your problem will be solved.
Any bulley hitting bone is going to fragment that bone, push it ahead, and ruin meat. Can't get away from that,but heavy bullets will lessen the damage.
Hornady custom, Federal Classics, Winchester Power points, rem core-locks will all fit the bill.
I have used 150 Nosler Ballistic Tips on deer for years. I shoot them out of a 24" barreled 308 Winchester @ 2850 fps and have had no trouble with excessive damage. The bullets completely penetrate with no excessive damage on either side. I would prefer to see damage than use too heavy or too stiffly constructed bullet. IMHO...
Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat
Posts: 413 | Location: Owensville, Indiana USA | Registered: 04 July 2001
I guess my name says a lot about my thinking on this subject. If you are not happy with the performance you currently are getting, and wish to minimize meat damage, go larger and/or slower, and try cast bullets of the hard variety. But you won't be able to pull off those 1000 yd running shots quite as well, so hunt closer if possible. I did find the 160 gr partition bullets in 7MM quite effective with little collateral meat damage, placement being important. Not trying to start a flame war here, but read all you can by Elmer Kieth on the subject, lots of experience on animals there. I value experience, it's not just an opinion.
[This message has been edited by 8MM OR MORE (edited 11-23-2001).]
Posts: 1944 | Location: Moses Lake, WA | Registered: 06 November 2001
quote:Originally posted by Gerard: Meat damage is caused by bullet fragmentation, not speed.
Dear Gerard,
I don�t want to argue against your opinion here, as you have right in most aspects. However, as I have the impression that our new friend Slapshot isn�t a handloader, but still buy factory ammo, I think its still adviceable for him to use heavy slow standard bullets. They will be good enough for deer. I would make the same loads myself.
Truly yours,
Fritz
Posts: 846 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 19 April 2001
All these things are compromise. As everyone has said heavier and slower will damage less meat and as some have said deer may run a bit further with the same shot placement and a lot further with poor shot placement, you will have no margin for error re clipping liver/gut shots whereas a bullet that damages meat might still expand and cause enought damage/bleeding to allow you to find the annimal.
The exception to the rule is the RN which imparts a good amount of shock even without opening on very small animals. I use the 154gr RN hornadies in my 7x57. Good expansion, excellent penetration, excellent killing power and accuracy at 2,650fps. The old designers knew their stuff!
Anyhow IMHO you're on the right track, the other route is fast light and head and neck only - not to be reccomended
Posts: 2258 | Location: Bristol, England | Registered: 24 April 2001
I agree. There has been extensive research on bullet velocity,knockdown power,VS. Meat Damage. I can send you the web address if you like. Whatever caliber you are shooting, at the point of impact,(not muzzle velocity) You will have less meat damage at 2500fps. or less. A larger diameter bullet will obviously give more "knockdown power" literally, Knock it down. On the ground. Unless you enjoy tracking wounded animals. BUT....Ultimately, a well placed shot, when the animal is not quartering toward you or away, is the best all around for less damage. Last year with my deer, I just knicked a shoulder blade and took out a peice smaller than a dime with a 30-06. The meat damage was extensive. Shot my Elk this year with a 300 Ultra Mag. Clean rib shot, and didnt hit any bones other than ribs. Absolutely no wasted meat other than a little rib meat. Shot placement is Everything.Dear Shawn,
my simple advice is that you should use heavier and slower bullets. They have push enough to knock the game down and to punch neat holes without making a lot of useless mincemeat at the hit.
Try a 160 grains round nose in your .280 and your uncle would do better with 180 grains or 220 grains, both round nose, in his .30-06.
The higher velocity and the lighter bullets you have, the more meat will be destroyed. But higher bullet weights and lower velocities leave more meat for eating.
I have to agree with Gerard's basic premise, which is bullet construction translates into what it will do to the animal. Velocity has a role to play but I think it is secondary to construction of the bullet. If you want to reduce damage to meat, then shoot a hard bullet, normally made of a single metal such as lead or Gerard's or Barnes-X's bullets, and avoid hitting bones. For example, muzzle-loading black powder rifles shoot great big hard-lead bullets real slow and at 25 yards they will punch a neat hole in a deer with marginal damage to the meat...there is no massive hydrostatic shock and attendant hemorrhaging. But, often enough, deer that are shot with cast lead bullets from muzzle-loading rifles run off... On the other hand, bullets that have soft metal or plastic noses are designed to radically expand (explode!) which knocks a deer on its butt right then and their, with unsightly hemorrhaging a foot or more from where the bullet hit. Try shooting some solids (or mono-metal) bullets and see what that does to your deer. As for me, I have shot deer with all kinds of bullets, usually at close range, and my favorite bullet is the one where the deer falls down ASAP!
If your confident in your shot placement use the heavy for caliber bullets, if you shoot a deer through the vitals your not going to have to track him no further than you can throw a rock anyway. If shot placement MAY be A LITTLE OFF then go with lighter bullets with more velocity that have a better chance of fragementing into the vitals.
shoot the heaviest bullet you can while maintaining 2700-2800 fps.
1894- I used the 154 horn rn in my 7-08 this year here in West Virginia. Where I hunt, the shot in excess of 100yds is rare. It killed like the hammer of Thor.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
Beemanbeme, Hay, speaking of the 7-08 I used mine for the first time this year here in the mountains and got a rare oppurtunity, a 250 yard shot sraight down into a deep holler or (hollow). I was using Hornady 139gr. interlocks and he dropped within 50 yards of the shot. Up until now my longest shot on a deer was no more than 70 yards but I do practice and hunt groundhogs at this range so I was confident in the shot. BTW, I have been thinking about trying the 154s in my gun, seems like it may be the better all around choice if my 1in9.5 twist will shoot it as good as the 140s.
Gerald is right when he states that fragmentation is what causes bruising. Speed only equates into it as to how much your bullet will fragment. If you like speed and want to minimize bruising than a bullet like Barns-X or GS custom is in order. I use Barns-X bullets exclusively for big game hunting. (Unfortunately I have not had a chance to try any of Gerald�s yet) The bruising was one of the reasons that I went to the X bullet. No you do not get the spectacular drop in their tracks kills as often as with some of the other bullets. But none of the game I have shot with an X has gone over 50 feet. Heavy round nose going slow work well for reducing bruising also. No mater what you use if you hit bone the bone will fragment and cause bruising on top of the bullet frag. I have a friend that uses a 300 Weatherby for everything. When moose or caribou hunting he uses X bullets. When he would go to the states deer hunting he would load Nosler BT�s. We always would debate his choice. He was a firm believer in that any bulled would kill a deer. And he loved the spectacular kills. It cost him $4,500.00 last year. The ranch he hunts in Texas if you draw blood you are done. He busted a nice buck at about 125 yards. And instead of dropping in its tracks it made tracks. They looked for the buck for several days. The blood trail only went a few yards. Two weeks after his return home, the ranch called him to tell him that they had found the deer. The coyotes had gotten to it and gnawed on the antlers. So he got no meet and no trophy from that hunt. He will be shooting X�s next time though. In my opinion Ballistic tips are for varmints and paper, and marginal on varmints at that.
[This message has been edited by 35nut (edited 11-25-2001).]
Posts: 358 | Location: Virginia | Registered: 15 March 2001
I don't altogether agree with Gerard and that's unusual, but I firmly believe that velocity does destroy meat in effect that it is what causes fragmentation, and to say that BarnesX on any monometal bullet doesn't bruise is not again all together correct...I have seen monometals in heavy for caliber weight destroy meat extensively when driven at higher velocity.
What I suggest to the questionnaire is that he use 220 gr. Corelokts at 2400 in his 30-06 and 175's in the 7mm at 2400 and he will correct the meat damage problem and I'm sure one of Gerards heavies at less velocity would do as well....albeit the guns will not shoot as flat or as far theoretically anyway..
The way to bullet fragmentation is SPEED but I think that Gerald knows this and what he is trying to say is the faster you drive the bullet the better bullet you will need. ANY and ALL bullets have there limits.
I would like to thank everyone who responed to my quiery, your input is appreciated. Sorry for my two day abscence, out hunting. What I have gleaned is: heavier (read slower) is better and stoutly constructed is better. However less bruising may mean that you sacirfice the 'drop in their tracks' kills.
One of the main objectives of an expanding bullet of any construction is to increase the size of the wound channel. If damage to the vascular system occurs, the large wound channel assures quick bleed out and subsequent death of the animal. A small wound channel can cause slower bleed out, which can translate to more distance traveled by the animal. If you start at 7MM you try to get expansion so as to increase wound channel size, which means you need speed to get expansion. Start at .44 and you need penetration, which you get from bullet weight and construction. I've witnessed this many times, in hunting situations. Its one reason I like black powder hunting. If the animal is dangerous, you need bonesmashing penetration so as to immobilize if possible when death may be several seconds away, the animals and maybe yours if your not quick. Many of these characteristics can be duplicated with a 7MM, a 6MM, a 25-06, etc. It is really up to the hunter to understand these things, and the architecture of the animal, so as to provide a quick humane death for the animal, and safe hunting for himself. If you know these things then it probably will be your bullet placement that is the real telling factor. Good hunting to all!!
Posts: 1944 | Location: Moses Lake, WA | Registered: 06 November 2001
Ray, In effect we do agree. I have seen massive meat damage with our HP range of bullets on occasion. The clue is your statement "heavy for caliber monometal bullets". When using monometal bullets, the weight should be reduced to keep the relationship between twist and bullet length. So if heavy for caliber monos are used, say a 180 gr in a 308, the bullet is highly prone to tumbling on impact resulting in much bruising and unpredictable behaviour. This is why we steadfastly recommend light and fast monos. They are better after impact that way. If you make the right choices, the momentum of a slow/heavy can be equalled with a lighter/faster, and when that happens, the shorter bullet has more energy and will penetrate deeper and straighter. The modern monometal bullet plays to a different set of rules than the traditional bimetal bullets.
Gerard, you are correct of course, its just that you have gone against all that is holy and changed the rules on us old timers, and it's taking us a little time to absorb all of this new and wonderfull change...
As you know, I am working on excepting this new concept in bullet structure and design and was extremely pleased with your 8MM 160 gr. HV in my 8x57 at hyper velocity...Although meat bruising was definatly there, it was much less than say a Silvertip, Hornady or Sierra...and in fact if one stops and gives it some thought there is actually precious little meat on a deers shoulder in the first place...A true meat hunter should simply take neck and head shots at reasonable ranges, as do cull hunters.
For those who thing bruising is caused by bullet fragmentation, I refer you to the pictures of bullet travelling through gelatin blocks. The huge cavity occurs soon after entry and tapers off as it travels through the medium. This is just opposite of what happens to the bullet which deforms more as it travels. The bruising you see is caused by the shock wave imparted by velocity, and is what causes small animals to literaly explode when struck. This occurs even if you use bullets that are not designed to fragment. The purpose of the latter construction is to prevent richochet, and the resulting unpredictable path of the bullet.
Ditto what Slamfire said. Yes, bullet fragmentation causes damage, but so does pure kinetic energy.
Somebody mentioned X-Bullets not causing much damage. They usually don't compared with other bullets of the same weight at the same velocity.
But, my last "just for the hell of it" deer/antelope load, a 130 XBT that clocks 3663 at the muzzle...well, if you hit a deer in the shoulder, don't even try--simply throw that quarter to the dogs. It leaves exit holes the size of softballs and entrance holes the size of baseballs! I never recovered any from game (they always exited) but I tested them against everything from wood to water to dirt to solid steel plate and never found one that retained less than 90% so if there were fragments I'm guessing there was less than 10 grains' worth of them. Obviously the damage was done purely from the velocity.... I'll leave you with this:
quote:Jack O'Connor, in his seminal treatise The Big-Game Rifle, observed:
"Actually, extensive tests made at Princeton University during the last war show that the relationship between energy and wound severity is very close, and that this often noted "shock effect" of impact velocities of much over 2000 fps comes because at velocities over 2000 fps energies go up very rapidly...Too many of us have judged the severity of the wound simply by the size of the permanent cavity created. Some of us have judged wound severity by the size of the hole on the far side. We have neglected the killing effect of the bloodshot tissue around the permanent wound channel and the effect of the opening of the temporary cavity...But the bullet has to get inside the animal...As long as the bullets gets inside, then, velocity contributes more to killing power than bullet weight...The difference in killing power between the .30/30 and the .30/06 lies in the velocity."
Posts: 920 | Location: Mukilteo, WA | Registered: 29 November 2001
You can use slower bullets if you have to but as Jack O'Conner also said any bullet powerful enough to hunt deer with if placed in shoulders, hams or backstraps is going to destroy some meat. This extensive damage caused by high velocity is what makes cartridges like the .270 quick killers. For a few years in my youth I used a 6mm rem. with 87 grain Hornady's at 3200fps and was amazed at the little bullets effectiveness and quickly learned to keep this bullet away from shoulders and backstraps. Never took any shots at hams for any reason. The 85 grain sierra bthp is also an excellent deer bullet.
How about trying something in the middle of the road. 165 gr noslers or Barns in a 3006, and 150 in the 280 rem. I find light for caliber too damaging and risky if you have to shoot through shoulder. And heavy for caliber bullets you loose trajectory and if you do happen to shoot at a longer range a bullet that might not expand as much as you like.
Happy Hunting
Posts: 182 | Location: Okotoks, Alberta | Registered: 23 September 2001
I don't agree that all "monometal" bullets don't fragment. Will someone rebut me! I have stated here that a 165 gr Barnes X FB fired into 1/2 gal water filled paper cartons from a .300 magnum will loose their petals. I mean all of the petals. The remaining .300" shank weighed 80 grains.
Is this lot of bullets defective?
I am not doing anymore testing of Barnes bullets. The fouling is not even close to being worth it.
Dear Don, Shooting any bullet into water is a bad choice for a medium. AS it is like concrete at that speed.I once tried shooting 300 grain noslers into sand bags and they only penetrated 6 inches when they were no more.Same thing crappy medium. For penetration and expansion tests I have always found wet newspapers staked into cardbord box work well with some dry one in the middle to try to resemble bone. Barns x have always been the best as far as penetration goes. Accuracy has always been good in my rifles but have heard from others that they have had problems. As far as copper fouling I clean my rifles after a max of 15 shots no matter what bullet I use so copper fouling is never a problem, and I also use sweets solvent as part of the cleaning. Also maybe someone can clear something for me. I always read that barns x foul barrels at an unreal rate.Am I wrong but don't most other bullets have a copper jacket on them and your rifle lands are tearing through that copper as well. From what I seem to have had experience with it seems that if you clean your rifle at regular intervals you should not have a problem with fouling.
Happy Hunting
Posts: 182 | Location: Okotoks, Alberta | Registered: 23 September 2001
Gonzolas, I agree with you 100%. There are alot and I mean ALOT of shooters out there that have fallen under the false security that their barrels are not fouled. Or maybe they don't care, then when accuracy problems come up they blame something else. I learned alot from Pac-Nor and Butch(Butch's Bore Shine) on copper fouling and the problems associated with it. sure-shot
