I just got one of the new Wnchester M1895s in 405 Wnchester. I am also going buffalo "hunting" this winter. Do you guys think this rifle will work well for the buffalo? I plan on hand loading for this rifle, but am currently having trouble finding brass and loads, any help here is appreciated as well.

Thanks,
Casey

I don't want to start any crap...but what kind of buffalo we talking about.

URDUBOB

Casey,

Are you talking Bison buffalo? If so, I think your .405 would be great. Hornady is supposedly making ammunition and components. I believe Woodleigh makes bullets for that caliber as well.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Guys thanks for responses. I am talking about bison not cape buffalo. Does one need a different gun to hunt one or the other? They are about the same size, actually I think the bison maybe bigger.

Casey

Casey,

It's not about size; it's about temperament. The Cape buffalo is a much more formidable quarry.

I expect that if you use a good hard cast bullet and put it through the bison's lungs, you'll do fine. Don't be surprised if it shows no reaction whatsoever to your shot.

Hornady is offering .405 ammo now, and probably brass, too.

George

HI,

I am sure no expert here, but the old smokeless rounds use to kill a hell of alot of buff, American buff. I think your 405 will be fine. Thanks,Kev

What do you guys recommend as far as bullet placement? I called Hornady about brass, well to make a long story short, it seems no one has brass yet. Hornady ammo is loaded with a 300 grain soft point. Do you guys think this type of bullet will be sufficient?

Thanks,
Casey

Casey,

I did not know Hornady was using softpoints.

Since you're already at .40 caliber, you don't really need expansion; you need straight-line penetration.

Old Western Scrounger has .405 Winchester brass, but it's by Bertram, and some guys are reporting that it is soft brass.

You'll have to dig around for good hardcast bullets for the .405, though.

George

GeorgeS,
So you really don't think the soft points will provide sufficient penetration? I was what I was afraid of too!

Thanks,
Casey

casey@
Hy casey,is your new Win95 a good quality one?
I ask because I�m interesting for one too.
Hauke

Casey,check with Huningtons for brass they had some a while ago,and talk to Hawk,Barnes or maybe Lost river thay may be able to help,
In my original I stick with the 300 grain soft point,but in your Win,you might want to try the heavier slug.
Check the threads Ray just came back from a buff hunt,he realy liked the ranch he was on,and said the owner like the old big bores,might give tham a call for added info.

For shot placement behind the shoulder can't be beat, no big surprise there.
About four inches behind and below the ear is recommended for minimal meat damage, though. I've seen bison all but bounce after being hit there. I've also seen 'em get back up, though, once during a photo op. A friend had shot a yearling bull, & was sitting on it for a photo. My son pointed out that it just blinked, but Doug didn't take him seriously or something. Until said buffalo stood up & launched him. Luckily the buffalo was bad sick and shortly keeled over again without inflicting any reciprocal damage.

Barnes also makes .405 bullets and Old Western Scounger will have ammo.

To the best of my knowledge Hornady hasn't released any brass for sale yet. I have a few boxes of their 405 ammo, though, and it's reasonably accurate. Bertram makes brass too, the stuff I have is a few years old, I haven't had any problems with softness, but perhaps it varies from batch to batch. For bullets, a hard cast bullet works well, or Barnes and HAwk make .411 bullets. The original Barnes are being phased out I'm told, but they do make an X bullet in this caliber, and that ought to penetrate like crazy. For bison, this cartridge will work fine, and it's a lot of fun to shoot, as long as you don't have a crescent butt stock. FWIW - Dan

Here's what the Hornady box looks like:



For a larger, more detailed photo, see:
http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT_Show_2002/Day2/Dsc00500.jpg

(Rhetorical: Why oh why did Hornady have to put that picture of TR with the Rhino on the box cover? I understand the connection with TR, but why that particular picture? That will probably start more threads on here about whether or not the .405 is an adequate dangerous game round. Oh well....)

-Bob F.

Casey,

Obviously Rimrock knows what he is talking about and I can relate to his story. I have taken two Bison, one in SD and the other in the Yukon Territory last Febraury. Your .405 should be fine but I agree with some here that a soft point is unnecessary from an expansion perspective and may be a bad idea from a penetration perspective.

I shot my first buff behind the ear and missed the atlas joint a bit too far forward. He did exactly what Rimrock described. Dropped like a stone and the got up and ran when we were within 10 feet of him. NOT FUN!! My 400 grian 45-70 bullet had literally split in two on the back of his skull and not hit the spine. Took another shot to the spine to end it. Now I go for a higher percentage shot first.

My second Buffalo was taken with a .416 Rem Mag Model 70 and my strategy was to buy my insurance before I needed it and pump two quick rounds into the heart/lung area and then shoot for the spine to prevent him from moving into any inhospitable areas for skinning and quartering. If you are going to be hunting on a ranch, that shouldn't be a problem but it is still a strategy that worked exceptionally well.

George is right in that you should expect no immediate reaction from the animal. First round from the .416 . . . NO REACTION. Second round . . . slight flinch in front leg. Third round to the spine . . . animal fell over.

Penetration is definitely your friend on these animals so you should try to maximize it. I used Barnes X-bullets from the .416 and will use solids on ALL future buffalo hunts. NONE of my 400 grain x-bullets exited and the beast was shot at 30-40 feet with bullets traveleing at 2400 FPS. X-bullets are great but we are talking about the largest game animal in North America here . . . if anything warrants solids its Bison.

Have a great trip!

JohnTheGreek

[ 10-23-2002, 22:23: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Casey,
Huntington's list 20 bertram cases for $30.00.
Old Western Scrounger lists 20 loaded rounds for $44.50.
Graf & Son's list 20 rounds of Hornady ammo at $28.00. They are out of stock at this time.
I would suggest that you find some Hornady ammo and get a bunch of it. Use those fired cases for your reloads. Hornady brass has always been good in my use.
Bullets,
I mentioned the DKT and Hawk bullets on another thread. One other maker would be North Fork Technologies. I beleive that Mike Brady (owner) is or will produce a version for the .405. These are the best soft points that I have used. Accurate, no fouling and they will hold together.
Send him an e-mail at northfork@vcn.com to see where he is at on them. He might even share some reloading data.
Also, Alaska Bullet Works offer their Kodiak bonded soft point for a .405.
Cast Performance bullets http://www.castperformance.com list hard cast 405 bullets under the Mt. Baldy line for $22.00 per 100.
The .405 got a bad reputation in the past due to poor bullets. It will be intersting to see how it does with modern bullets.

Casey,
I'll bet the 405 would work, but if you have something bigger or more powerful ie 375 H&H, I would suggest you use that. Bison are tougher than you might believe. Contrary to popular belief, I have seen them charge too.

TEG

Hauke Karl W, yes it is a high quality firearm. It is one of the new production rifles from Miroku. It is smoooooth as silk. I like it a lot!

It is looking like Bertram is the only brass game in town. However, for what they want for their brass I can buy loaded Hornady and fire it off to reload it.

What do you guys think of a heavy jacketed Hawk bullet for the bison? I just like the idea of some expansion.

TEG, the only thing I have that is "bigger" is a 58 caliber muzzle loader. I doubt that it will outperform the M1895 though.

Thanks,
Casey

If I remember correctly from TR's books, he took the 405 as a "lion gun" and hunted the big stuff with a large double (I forget the caliber). The picture on the Hornady box is obviously just a publicity thing, at least that's how I see it. - Dan

I think it was an H&H Royal or Dominion grade .500/.465.
It was a gift from the white settler community in Kenya.

George

I have used Hawk bullets on elk and kudu, and I was very pleased with the tremendous expansion and meat damage.

But if you use Hawks, do not expect deep penetration, because that is not what they are designed for. On a broadside shot on a kudu, my 500 grain Hawk out of my 470 capstick did not exit, but it blasted the dickens out of the chest cavity.

Pecos, I admit that I have gotten a big kick out of your antics. I must admit though, I have noticed that you don't seem to ever answer anyones questions. You attacked this TEG guy, why? TEG seemed to provided credible advice in my opinion.

What do you think about the 405 Winchester for bison? Do I need to roll my own with hard cast or solids, or will the factory soft points work fine? I want your expert opinion.

Casey

Although I don't own a Win M95, let alone chambered in 405, nor have I hunted for bison, I'd suggest a heavier bullet then the 300 offering. I'm convinced it's a better choice. ~~~Suluuq

Should have saved your money and bought a 444 Marlin, it is the ballistic equivilant plus .020" larger bore. It will push jacketed 280gr FP soft CorBon's at 2220 fps and their 305 solid at 2150 fps. It will push Beartooth's 330 gr lead-cast at 2230 fps and 355 gr lead-cast at 2100 fps.

There isn't one game animal a 405 Win will take that a 444 Marlin won't.

Regardless, enjoy your M95.

[ 10-28-2002, 23:58: Message edited by: rossi ]

Bison are definately larger than Cape Buffalo when matured...I recently shot my Bison with a single 450-400-3" with a 400 gr. Woodleigh soft at 2230 FPS...It broke a rib going in, expanded perfectly and broke two ribs on the other side but didn't make an exit hole...He trotted up hill about 20 yards, stopped, rolled down the mountain and was dead when he stopped rolling....

Considering that bullet has a SD of .338 and a BC of .433, one wonders how anything could stop it but the bison did...

Based on this I would like a bullet with more weight in the 405 and would want better penitration than any 300 gr. bullet has....

However I am also sure most any 405 round thru the lungs will kill a bison and they seldom move far after a hit in the lungs.

I prefer to overgunned on anything I shoot...

Thanks gentlemen for additional advise. Ray, a friend has offered to let me borrow his 50-140 Sharps. He is GREAT friend. Do you think that this rifle would be the cat's meow for a trophy bison bull? The 50-140 is BP, and generates about the same muzzle energy as the 405.

Pecos, I am starting to think that this TEG guy might be right about you! That would be the only thing he is right about, though!

Casey

Bison are no big deal to knock over on the spot with a well-placed shot. Neck and shoulder shots will lay 'em out right now if you use any sort of well-made bullet. The .405 Winchester should work just fine.......

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