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| <Dr. John> |
I regularly shoot a 458 win mag. to practice I spend a lot of time shooting it off the bench. recoil is always worse feeling off the bench. then when I shoot standing...no problems. recoil not that bad. I used to flinch when my scope didn't have adequate eye relief and would regularly get it between the eyes. I flinched. however, now I use a leupold 2-7, great eye relief...no worries so I shoot much better. I have also installed a mercury recoil reducer, a Descellerator recoil pad and some lead weight to the stock. 11 lb rifle. much better shooter. takes the "edge" off the recoil. | ||
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| one of us |
Are you worrying about the scope hitting your eyebrow? I agree with Dr. John about scope and eye relief; this is a very important consideration for any rifle with heavy recoil. I hold the rifle tight against my shoulder, and I still have two to three inches of clearance between my eye and the scope. I have a Leupold Vary-X III 2.5-8x scope that has about 4" of eye relief. I have heard the following about practicing: "Use a very small caliber bolt action rifle of the same design as the "big rifle" to practice. Shoot as often as possible with the small rifle to develop shooting skills, and every now and then shoot the big rifle to see how you are doing. If both rifles could have similar scopes, that will help, too" Something else: If you reload, use some of the numerous .33 lightweight bullets (around 180 grains) just for practice. Develop handloads that provide accuracy first, and hopefully at the lower range of the velocities shown in the reloading data. To shoot well with any rifle you have to practice quite a lot (specially when shooting off hand). Short shooting sessions are usually better than long shooting sessions, because you don't want to hurt your shoulder. A coworker of mine developed a shooting technique that has helped him a great deal when shooting off hand. He is an avid bird hunter, so he spends lots of time shooting his shotgun. He raises his rifle and leans forwards just a little as the rile comes up to his shoulder. As the rifle comes up to his shoulder his eye is already looking through the scope. His fingertip is already on the trigger, and as soon as he centers the scope on the target he fires his rifle. He is very fast and accurate. He always reminds me: "Ray, remember to lean forward as rifle moves up to your shoulder, never lean backward, and always stand with legs apart from each other, with one slightly ahead of the other." He is right-hander, so he places his left leg forward and bends the left knee as he leans forward. | |||
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| <JHook> |
If someone can shoot a .338mag off the bench then shooting one under hunting conditions is a breeze. I think from time to time its more the excitement of seeing a big animal in your sight then recoil that might cause one to jerk a shot off target. Ive had it drilled into my head to "sqeeze until the gun surprises you by going off". And this rule serves me unto this day. Many guys in my area think Im a very fine rifleman , but I have been around to many "real riflemen" that I know Im not much more then adequate. But "adequacy is good enough" as long as one shoots within their limits. Most , if not all, missed shots are from a rifleman shooting outside his limits. Ive done it Ola, we all have. Ive just been lucky enough to have had only a few of them , and they have been clean misses. I recomend a shooting recoil harness for your bench work , as well as the best hearing protection you can find. Dont be afraid to wear clear glasses in the feild if they give you confidence. Also dont be afraid to "go down to a 6.5, .308, or '06" until you regain your confidence. You should probably just forget shooting the .338 from the bench after sighting in and just shoot from field positions. If you reload then a 225 or 250 grn bullet at 2400 to 2500 fps will put moose in your freezer without thumping you to bad. I also like to use an "add-on" recoil butt pad, tho mostly for extending the length of my stock. You'll work thru this. The .338M is a gem and you should hang on to it...................J | ||
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one of us |
Ola, I have a rifle in .450 Ackley Mag. I can handle the recoil, I have a good accuracy but I want smth better. In this way I'll change my CZ barrel into a Lothar Walther Match grade barrel. To shoot more rounds with my rifle I ask for my gunsmith a removal muzzle break. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
for me the 1st thing in dealing with a hard-kicking rifle is to clean up and lighten the trigger pull. nothing accentuates a flinch worse than a heavy, creeping trigger. | |||
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| <Ola> |
Several good points here; thanks! Have been thinking about a Leopold due to the eye relief, but so far I just could not leave my 1,5-6x42 (Zeiss) at home. It is a perfect combination for most situations in forest and it has been following me since 1986. I have aslo been thinking about ligthening the trigger pull a litle. I will try that. Practising is a must! I have now got a similar gun in 6,5x55, a Win M70 Classic. A realy neat rifle that makes me feel good. The last years I have used a .338-06 Acl imp. for my big game hunting. A very efficient carteridge that give�s energy out of every grain of powder. (Bullet weights from 160 to 300 gr) Recoil is much lower than from the .338 WM, and it is quit pleasent to shoot. Velocity is not far away from fabric-loads for the .338 WM. I am now working on a 9,3x64. Prepearing for some heavier loads than the .338-06. Found out today that i can get 320 gr bullets from Woodleigh here in Norway! Looking forward to get experieces with it on moose. Luckily i can also get cheap 193 gr bullets from Sellier & Bellot for practising! I have always been practising a lot with my hunting rifles, and learned to "know them" quit well, but there is always interesting to hear experiences from other hunters! [This message has been edited by Ola (edited 05-02-2002).] | ||
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one of us |
The basics of shooting any rifle are all the same. Good stock design, adequate eye relief ( under all conditions), good recoil pad, good trigger, a good Muzzel break and a diet of steady practice. Not off the bench but from real-life field conditions! If you don't pay attention to these basics you may develop a flinch and NEVER ever shoot well. Properly designed any of us can shoot a rifle that generates up to about 110 ft-lbs of recoil and have no problems. But make a big enough mistake and your shooting may be effected foreever.-Rob | |||
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| one of us |
I am going on a elk hunt with my 300 win mag I plan to shoot 300 rds thru it before a go another couple of thousand this year shooting p dogs ect from other guns. Last Saturday I shot a .750 3 shot group with my 300 mag at 300 yards prone bipod. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:
I kept scrolling, scrolling... and finally got to the 700 Nitro at 109.8!!!! I think you have a pretty high regard for "most of us"!! Rick. | |||
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one of us |
I think a lot of practice with smaller caliber guns goes a long way toward being able to shoot the bigger ones. I don't shoot as many rounds in practice with my .338 as I do with my 7mm. Likewise I shoot the 7mm less than the .257 Roberts or .22-250. I do take the bigger hunting rifles out just to shoot vermin from field positions. I does a lot for my confidence! | |||
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| one of us |
Well the Sako has a bit of weight to it, so the recoil in the 338 should not be all that bad. I know I shoot one myself. The problem is that you are shooting to much. Now before every body rips me a new one. Let me explain. I never shoot more that 10 shots per day at the range. Most of the time just five. Heavy Recoiling Rifles, tend to hurt after a few shots. This is the way people are, so shoot fewer more accurate shots in pratice, over a longer span of time. Rather than shoot 20 or 30 shots at once. Space those shots over 4 or 5 days. For a long time, I just shot one shot per day. over a summer my marksmanship emproved so much that I could keep all of my shots in a 3 inch circle at 200 yards. This is off the bench kind of shooting that you would do in the field. Also before each range time with a center fire, shoot 50 or so shots with a 22 Rim Fire if you have one, or an air rifle. It dose take time, and well money too. I don't know what other do, but I find that this way works well for me and after a while you know when you blew a shot before you even have to look at the target. Also, I vary my time of day so light becomes a factor to deal with too. There is not easy or short cut way that I know of. The guys that shoot well do so because they shoot offten. My Uncle taught me this, he only fired one .308 cartridge every other day and I can say that with out a doubt he was one of the fastest game shots I ever seen. He would put a bullet into a moose so quick that the guide would still be saying its a good one shoot and the moose would be on the way down. His shooting was a result of a long life time of planned directed shooting pratice. He would fire a shot no matter what the weather and never the same time of day. | |||
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| one of us |
Horsehockey, the only way to learn to shoot big bore rifles is get out there and shoot them, and shooting smaller guns serves no purpose at all...Shoot them off hand until you conquer them and lose all fear of recoil. Don't over do it at one sitting. All that gun rag advise about loading them down isn't going to help when you know you just put a big one in the tube... When I pull a trigger I know when its going off with any gun...it is no surprise to me..I call it my controlled flinch. How could you make a running shot if you don't know when the gun is going to shoot... ------------------ | |||
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| <phurley> |
I agree with Ray completely, the only way to be able to shoot the larger chamberings is to shoot them regularly. I shoot three days a week, weather permiting. This is my entertainment, I was a tennis player until knee problems, never had time to golf. I also have two private benchs, a 100 yarder and a 200 yarder. I take several rifles each session, and shoot them each for a group, standard chamberings get five shot groups, Magnums get three shot groups. I chronograph each shot while working up loads. I may shoot five rifles per session, while my buddies shoot theirs also. One particular rifle, a .340 Weatherby Sporter model, I shot and tweaked loads for two years before my last Alaska trip for Moose. I established a good one hole group for Barnes XLC 250 gr. Then my outfitter said bring only bring Nosler Partition, so I started all over again, and ended up with a 250 gr. Nosler Partition Gold load that would be right on the money at 2950 fps. I actually killed a Bull Elk with it the year before I went to Alaska. The shot that put the Moose down in the middle of the Farewell Burn was number 619, yep that number is right, six hundred nineteen. My guide complemented my on a 175 yard dead in his tracks shot, on a fast walking Moose. When I explained I like to shoot the rifle I hunt with enough for it to become instinctive, he agreed with the results. I am now working on two .358 STA's, another Sako .340, a .338 Lapua for a buddy and a new .416 Rem. Beleave me when you shoot these big boys enough, and get used to it, the standard chamberings seem like pop guns. The trick is shoot them enough for it to be second nature. Well that is my method for shooting the Magnum's, for what it is worth. Good shooting. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
I do all of my hunting with the 7mm stw and 300 ultra mag and average 1/2" or better off the bench with all four of my rifles.I shoot several hundred rounds of centerfire during the offseason at ranges out to 550 yards to keep my shooting skills sharp.Shooting this often helps to prevent developing a flinch as does a proper fitting stock. | |||
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| one of us |
With a few notable exceptions (Ray) far too many people have suggested what kind of equipment you shoot is far more important than how you shoot. Rifle shooting is much like any other sport. Its learned muscle memory and technique. You'll only learn to shoot well under field conditions if you practice your technique under those conditions. Shooting off the bench just doesn't cut it. Light triggers aren't necessary...a good rifleman can take a rifle with a crappy trigger and shoot it well...it requires more concentration but it can be done. Sitting is probably the most useful but often most overlooked field shooting position. With practice you can drop to a highly stable sitting position and get an accurate 200 yard game shot off in a few seconds. | |||
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| one of us |
Form has a lot to do with shooting rifles that recoil as much as .338's or more. For one shoot from the bench in an upright position, let the recoil roll you back. If you are intentionally holding the rifle tightly against your shoulder you won't be able to roll with the recoil. Second make a little tension between your hands like you are pulling them apart while holding the rifle. Not hard but enough so your left hand will continue to control the rifle when it goes off and also use the weight of your left arm to work against the recoil. I live my soft recoil pads. I often have shotgun styles put on my rifles. How tight you hold the rifle should not flatten the pad, that should happen when the rifle goes off. | |||
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| one of us |
I will respectfully disagree with Ray about the practice with smaller rifles. Any practice is good. Still better is lots of practice with the one rifle you plan to use. In between is lots of practice with different guns and that is most likely and practicle for most. I do agree on the point that practicing with the magnum is the only way to learn how it shoots. Trigger time is what makes a person a good shot. Most people can't really practice all year with full power, magnum, hunting bullet loads. It's just not practical. I shoot many different rifles and several pistols through the year and don't have any problem with the .338 when it comes out. | |||
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| <JHook> |
Yeah thats simply brilliant advise. For a guy to keep shooting a big gun/load, when he isnt used to them, and pump one full power round after another downrange. I guess your theory lies in that eventually he'll be thumped sensless enough to not even know hes shooting. This post was started by a fella who already had a flinching problem, and he was honest enough to post about it. How in hell is he going to deal with it if he continues with the same process that started it ? He may not be a "legend in his own mind" and he may not be "man enough" to blast thru box after box for a magnum. Telling him to do so, to solve his problem, is just brilliant. Going back to square one, with a lighter rifle/load, and re-learning proper shooting mechanics is good advice. Most of what guys suggested Ola, before ole horsehockey chimed in, was good advice. I suggest you take it instead of takeing the "bad advice" and makeing a bad problem even worse. You have a whole summer to work on it. Shoot a lighter rifle/load until it become "fun" again ; Until you can "squeeze the trigger until the rifle surprises you by going off". Dont worry about becomeing a "Big man on Forumn", just take care of yourself and you'll be soon "splitting the "X" again....................J ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Another thing an old timer said to try was dry firing with a dime resting on top. Pistol or rifle, when you can squeeze it off without knocking off the dime switch to live rounds. If you shoot with a buddy let him / her load or not load with you guessing which it will be the squeeze the trigger. You'd be amazed how bad many people flinch in expectation. Just something fun to do to pass the cabin fever. | |||
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| <rifleman13> |
s [This message has been edited by rifleman13 (edited 05-13-2002).] | ||
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| <rifleman13> |
i | ||
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one of us |
Does anyone here honestly hear the report of their rifle and feel recoil in the field when shooting at big game? I don't. I will have an image of the orange flame ball burned in my retina (if the shot is early or late) and my ears will be ringing, but that's it. Perhaps a lack of concentration allows for the flinch in the field on game shots? I know I have flinched at times from the bench. So I'm not saying I am immune. Tim | |||
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| one of us |
Big Nate, I can't argue that, your correct in that any shooting is good, I did not mean to indicate that.. If I wanted to shoot big bores I would shoot the 505 Gibbs until I mastered it then anything below that such as a 416 is a cake walk..thats what I did, albiet not by design,it just worked out that way years ago. As to trigger squeeze, I don't adhere to the slow squeeze, surprise shot, I never had that luxury being a hunter prmarily...I know when the gun is going off..I pull the trigger fast and quick, but without a jerk, just a quick smooth pull or as I like to call it " a controled flinch"...It has worked pretty well over the years and I would suspect that most hunters do this whereas target shooters do not. ------------------ | |||
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| <Ola> |
Big bores, velocity, penetration, premium bullets and the "ultimate gun" are very, very interesting topics, but we also have to shoot well to get any use of the gun. One of the main reasons for me starting this post was to get focus on one important side of shooting: Handling the recoil. (To some people this may be difficult enough with a .308 Win or a .30-06). Myself I shoot competition with rifle and have been doing so with pistol and shotgun. I train a lot with my hunting rifle, and I think I am at least average in handling my weapons. But in spite of relevant training I have experienced to shoot bad shots on game. (Im fact I think it some times happenes due to the lack of respect for the given situation) JHook: I think Mr. Atkinson points are very good, as they always are: All shooting is good, but you will not manage to handle your "magnum" before you have been practicing a lot with it. That is a fact. I am now finished with this topic.
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| <EricT55> |
I also agree with replacing the trigger so that it is crisp and a little lighter, like hotweatherhunter suggested doing. You want the pin to drop before you have the chance to yank the trigger as you anticipate its recoil. I also believe that a muzzle break never hurt anyone, even when hunting. ET | ||
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| <JHook> |
Ola I like Atkinson too. And yeah, much of his advice is good. But you first posted that you had a flinching problem with the .338Win.........didnt you ? Now you say you are a "competition shooter" , and, you really dont have a flinching problem. I now guess you just "threw the thread out there" seeing what guys would say. Well lest assume you DO have a flinching problem when you moved up to the .338. Will someone please explain to me how shooting the same caliber/loads that are CAUSEING the problem will also SOLVE the problem ? I just cant fathom that! Should I equate that statement with E=MC2 because The Old Man said it ? Hey I got a better idea, move up to a .458 and REALLY learn how to control your flinch. I mean if it was me I'd shoot a reduced load/caliber, use recoil pads, get off the bench...ect! This thread wasnt about a popularity contest, it was about a flinching problem caused by , what really, is only a medium magnum. But a lot of fellers need to ease into even a .338, theres no dishonor in it. I stand by my advice, Im sorry.........good luck to you and good shooting............J | ||
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| <JerrBear356> |
Muzzle breaks help so much with the bigger calibers. And a good trigger with no creep will definatly allow you to shoot even before you could possibly flinch. Not that you (or I) would.  | ||
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| one of us |
JHook, I'm not disagreeing with you but I doubt one of your methods and that is shooting light loads will help shoot heavy loads..that is however a theory that has become well accepted... IMHO it helps nothing because when one sticks the biggie in the tube, he knows that he is about to face his neimasis and he will flinch.. Your suggestions of recoil pad, OFF HAND SHOOTING; and I'll add proper gun fit will come closer to solving the problem... I learned to handle recoil by shooting a light weight 505 Gibbs, 458 Lotts and 577 double rifles then when I shot a 375 I felt like it didn't kick at all...I shoot a 12 ga. and when I shoot a 20 I feel like it's a cream puff. It is only a mental game, as a rifle will not phyically hurt you to shoot it and thats all there is to it. My 11 year old grandson shoots my 375 offhand on ocassions and I have to help him hold it, and wants to shoot it more than I will allow him to because I don't want him to develope a flinch but I have to tell you he is immune to recoil because he doesn't know it's supposed to hurt..I never told him it could hurt, just told him it jumped up in the air a little. I let him shoot it once or twice, thats it, at every range session,....He craves to shoot it more. I am sure there is more than one way to skin a cat, and your method may work fine and like I said it has been written up in many a gun rag... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
HI, I would once again agree with MR. Atkinson , just go out and do it. I think to many people make a big deal about recoil. I have shot my 50 Alaskan from the bench as many as 70 rounds without a problem. It weighs around 7.5 pounds and that was with a 475 grain bullet at 2060 fps.I think you must just understand a big bore will have recoil, just learn to deal with it.I believe Elmer Keith saw around 5 foot 4 inchs and maybe 150 pounds and shot everything there was without a problem, correct me if I am wrong. Kev | |||
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one of us |
I try to keep one thought in mind, doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results is not logical. Change something, stock, recoil pad, shoulder protector (not my cup o tea), position, but find a way to improve the situation. That said, the only way to shoot well with a boomer is to shoot it, and shoot it with the loads you are going to use, not a light "target" load. Just my opinion. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
Ola, Do what George Semel suggests. This is the logical approach. Also if the .338 is a M-70 you don't need a new trigger. You can adjust a M-70 yourself. http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AdjustingWinTrigger.htm The problem with advice from experts is that they do things very well subconsciously. It would take a page of expaination to convey how to develop and use sucessfully a "controlled jerk". Atkinson is no doubt a very fast and accurate game shooter. But the title is like Michael Jordan telling me to "throw the ball at the rim" and it will go in! Go back to a .22 LR and get your trigger finger back. Then avoid bad experiances with the .338. Work up to it and don't fire many shots per day but do it often. Never shoot a heavy kicker with the forend on a rest. Instead hold the forend with your hand and rest the back of your hand on the rest. This will raise you up and the recoil will not pound your shoulder down but instead back. Also of course shoot the lightest weight bullets in the .338 that you can get and work up on that. Comment: I like these posts from around the world. Why don't we get posts from Japan? Does anyone know? | ||
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| One of Us |
I generally agree with the views put forward by Ray Atkinson, especially with reduced load practice. In fact I think using reduced loads has a negative effect. What reduced loads do is to allow you to use the rifle far more and for different purposes. As to the mental side, something I have noticed several times over the years is that shooters who see the 375 as a cannon have more trouble than shooters who are very interested in big rifles and only see the 375 as a medium power caliber on the overall scene. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Don, I think with Japan shooting is very limited and mainly target. Also, when you consider that the number of English, Europeans and Australians on the board is very small, then from a restricted gun owning place like Japan, it would be unlikely any would be here. What suprised me is how mnay of the Europeans are into wildcats and big bores as I had always thought of that as an American and Australian situation only. But have you noticed the English don't seem to want to play about with big calibers yet England was the father of it all. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
quote:I wonder myself. There is quite a number of hunters in Japan (to the surprise of many non-Japanese; but then, Japan is also a fairly forest-covered country, which most foreigners do not know either). Most of them only have shotgun permits, and that's why shootings and suicides with firearms in Japan mostly involve shotguns. Rifle permits are acquirable after some time of holding a shotgun permit, however. On the other hand, the number of handgun permits in the *whole* country is about 50-60, I believe (all of them top-notch competitive shooters). I think the main reason for the scarcity of posts from Nippon here is the lack of foreign language skills with most Japanese. Just an observation, not a bias... Regards from Germany, Carcano carcano91@hotmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
Here some more facts on firearms in Japan: FIREARMS OWNERSHIP Percentage of Households with at least one firearm: 0.57 Estimated Number of Licensed Firearm Owners: 239,380 Estimated Number of Firearms: 410,417 Types of firearms: Approximately 365,040 shotguns, 37,518 hunting rifles, 85 handguns Regards, carcano91@hotmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
carcano91, Here some more facts on firearms in Japan: FIREARMS OWNERSHIP Percentage of Households with at least one firearm: 0.57 Estimated Number of Licensed Firearm Owners: 239,380 Estimated Number of Firearms: 410,417 Types of firearms: Approximately 365,040 shotguns, 37,518 hunting rifles, 85 handguns [/QUOTE] I can't doubt about your statistics regarding japan firearms ownership but 85 handguns for all Japan people isn't big. Criminality in Japan is low. I was thought that my country Belgium was strict regarding fireamrs ownership. I was wrong ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Japan has experienced a rather significant increase of firearms crimes in the last 15 years, often involving handguns. These perpetrations tend to overstep the former confines of the boryokudan milieu. Each and every of these handguns are illegal (smuggled) imports. Regards, Carcano | |||
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| one of us |
After reading all these posts, it seems to me that practice of any kind can help in general. Just depends on what helps the particular shooter in any given situation. Light loads, 22 shooting, lots of shooting with your big game rifle. I bought a 338 a few years ago having never fired one, and was surprized at how shootable it was for my. In fact I enjoy shooting it off the bench. First summer, I went through over 10 boxes of factory ammunition trying out different bullets. Now that I'm into reloading, I am getting back to working on that gun's loads and my shooting. | |||
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one of us |
I don't think there is one answer to the question. For me, it doesn't matter what I shoot, I shoot them all the same way. But for someone who did not grow up shooting air rifles or 22's like a lot of those here, recoil interferes with the memorized sequence of events (find target, hold breath, squeeeeeze), by introducing the fear of recoil. Sports medicine tells us it takes approximately 3,000 repetition for an action to become instinctive. So, first, the act of firing needs to become instinctive, then you can take the big gun out and shoot till you start hurting. The other thing is that recoil is something that you can get used to. Shoot a couple of rounds of sporting clays with a heavy 12 load, and shoot your 338 the next day. You'll think it is a pussy cat. FWIW, Dutch. | |||
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