I was reading an article today on the internet and thought i would discuss it. It was saying that a 264 win mag's energy at 500yds was as great as a 44mag's is at the muzzle. they were trying to say that the sectional density of the 264 would have a better affect on the elk than the 44. but to me I would much rather have frontal impact because once the bullet opens it will leave a lot bigger whole. with today's premium bullet I would take frontal area over sectional density anyday.

Razorback I agree with you although on paper calibres like the 45/70 & .44 rem mag do not look flash that big frontal area kills really well.

A 45/70 outto 100 yards kills a lot better than a 30/06 yet on paper they are roughly the same (correct me if I am wrong)

There are always trade-offs. Usually you'll see folks making comparisons between extremes, such as the example you describe. Makes for better arguments. But you are certainly correct that today's bullets allow for lower sectional densities while achieving adequate penetration, relative to the standard two-piece bullets.

Me, I'll take a good dose of both sectional density and frontal area...that's why I shoot a .375 at most everything!!! Just don't take any theory to too great an extreme and you'll be ok. And remember your range limitations for the weapon you are using.

Tim

Tarbe your right in what you say, so I have begun shooting a .416 to get sd & fa mix right.

So use a 45-70-500. Get frontal area, and sectional density!

What are the ballistics for this caliber you mention John ???

Here is a list of Swift A-frame bullets. Since the SD from .33 bullets has worked so well for me in Alaska, I will go with that:

Swift Bullets

CAL WT B.C. S.D.

.257 100 .318 .216
.257 120 .382 .260

.264 120 .344 .246
.264 140 .401 .287

.277 130 .323 .242
.277 140 .414 .261
.277 150 .444 .279

.284 140 .335 .248
.284 160 .450 .283
.284 175 .493 .310

.308 165 .367 .249
.308 180 .400 .271
.308 200 .444 .301

.323 200 .357 .274
.323 220 .393 .301

.338 225 .384 .281
.338 250 .427 .313
.338 275 .469 .344

.358 225 .312 .251
.358 250 .347 .279
.358 280 .388 .312

.366 250 .285 .267
.366 300 .342 .320

.375 250 .271 .254
.375 270 .349 .274
.375 300 .325 .305

.411 350 .328 .296
.411 400 .375 .338

.416 350 .321 .289
.416 400 .367 .330

.458 400 .272 .272
.458 450 .325 .307
.458 500 .361 .341

.470 500 .364 .329

[ 06-01-2002, 07:08: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

I have used them both and I never felt like the 45-70 killed as good as a 30-06 on anything and certainly not as far...

I'm a big bore fan on Buffalo, elephant and even Lion, but I want more velocity than the 45-70 can muster...

The 45-70 is a good short range deer rifle and when loaded hot will surfice for short range elk IMHO.....still not my favorite, I'd rather have a 338 300 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS...

RAZORBACK,
I think that the writters of such articles do a disservice to those of us who read the articles.
Sectional density-bullet frontal area-ballistic coefficient-velocity and bullet construction are all part of a package. To attempt to pick one part of the package and declare that this is the panacea of hunting, shooting or what ever, borders on B--- S---! It is also a screen that many of those new to our sport have difficulty with. Heck, even us old timers stumble over it at times. The only saving grace I know of, is that it lends itself to some very good talks around a hunting trip campfire. Just my nickles worth. Have fun all.

[ 06-01-2002, 07:32: Message edited by: BigBob ]

Ray,

I am just going on what I have observed with the game I have shot with both calibres, and a pig hit with either a 30/06 or a 45/70 at 100 yards is buggered either way. But myself and two other mates all shoot 30/06's and 45/70's and we all agree the 45/70 is a much better killer (out to 100 yards) on the game we shoot at least, than the 30/06. Quicker kills caused by larger exit wounds I beleive.

We are using the 300 gr sierra's loaded to about 2150 fps.

PC,
I don't doubt that as to how fast the 45-70 is killing your pigs, but both are positive...I suspect it has more to do with the explosive effect of that 300 gr. bullet being driven at that fast velocity of 2150 as it was designed for about 1400 FPS and that would explain the faster kills....

But were I shooting Buffalo, Eland or Lion I'd still take a 220 gr. Nosler in my 30-06 over my Win. 1886 in 45-90...but thats just MY choice and it is argueable.

Sierra states their .458" 300 grain ProHunter hollow point is intended for up to 2150 fps muzzle velocity on light thin-skinned game such as deer and black bear. I don't think it was ever "designed" for around 1400 fps. However, at 2150 fps don't expect much salvage from the shoulder hit with a quartering shot.

Ray from Alaska, you missed the .366 286 and 320 grs, as well as the .375 350 grs.

Seems Ray is really in a peaceful mind as he did not notice ...

Hermann

The 45-70 is a short range cartridge.
My 1886 has driven the 405 gr to 1900 fps. BUT my 1886 is a custom rifle designed for heavier loads.
The Ruger is the only other that I consider safe.
At that velocity, no 30-06 is even close to it's killing potential, within it's ballistically limited range. If faced with a charging anything, it would be the gun of choice for me, if the other was an '06. Tests have shown that the 45-70 will out penetrate the '06 by nearly double, even at black powder velocities.

I do not care who is wrong or right but I love reading everyones views on stuff like this. Ray I imagine the game you shoot is a lot tougher than the game I shoot. I agree with you those sierra's are explosive, they lose there jackets pretty easily, if I were to hunt tougher stuff with my 45/70 I would shoot the woodleigh 405 gr flat points (45/70 projectiles) they hold together very very well.

aHunter: The BC/SD list is from Swift, and I posted it unedited.

Does Swift make those other bullets you mentioned? I know Woodleigh makes 300-grain .338 bullets (SP and solids), as well as some for a great number of cartridges.

I think a better answer is I would rather take a shot just off the muzzle of my 44 mag than a 500 yard shot with a 264. As far as exit hole size goes my 30-06 can make some pretty big exit holes at times. Also I have not noticed a big correlation between bullet diameter and quick kills. I have seen some though with high velocity and close range on broadside lung shots using adequate cartridges. But good bullet placement has the most to do with all aspects of quick kills.