Built a backstop today on my 40 acres- It's 400 yards from where I can park the truck and shoot from a bench in the back with my Outers Varminter Rest. I went into the swamp and cutcedars to stack on top of each other in a stagger pattern. All were about 8-12"cross. Here's the best part- from 400 yards my Nosler 140 BT's from my 280 are passing thru with no problem. The bad part- a few young maples down the hill about 75 yards have taken a few hits. I realize cedar is a pretty open grained wood- but surely didn't think a BT would pass thru one-that is 12inches across. I plan to add some 55 gallon drums full of sand to the set-up, to save the maples. (I didn't find any pass thrus on the maples- the are about 6 inches across.) Any body with an unbelievable penetration story??
One in particular, At a friends range he was using a piece of 3/8 steel for a backstop while shooting his 45-70. After a few groups with my 7-08 using 150 grain Ballistic Tips we went to set up a new target and found that all of the BTs had completely passed through the steel.
So much for the heavy for caliber slow moving bullets winning the penetration game EVERY TIME..
One small correction to your story. Cedar is not a open grained wood, it is in fact closed grain soft wood. Maples are closed grain hard wood.
How's this for pentration. 50 BMG shooting through 2 back to back (that would be side to side) small black chevy's at 400 yards! These particular engine blocks were 305's.
Now that's playing with shoulder held power.
Todd E
[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-08-2002).]
I have taken two bull moose and two bull elk with 180 gr ballistic tips out of my 300ultra mag and was pleased to see three of the shots leave exit holes and the fourth stopped against the hide after passing through the offside shoulder.This is great penetration for a bullet that supposedly won't shoot through a deer.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
I shoot at steel a lot, Spinners and gongs that I make on the farm. I find that hot 223's and 220 swifts will at times go through more steel than my 35 Whelen improved, or my 375H&H. I think that speed produces heat, and I shoot mostly Nosler BT's. High speed seems to equal good steel penatration, but large bullets seem to hit game harder. What have the rest of you noticed?
We used to "play bang the gong" with 6 inch diameter, 5/8ths thick steel plates. We shot them from about 175 up to about 300 yards with .243's, .308's, .222's, and even a .22 Hornet. All shots were with Nosler Ballistic Tips, 45 grains up to 165 grainers. Everything but the .22 Hornet would blow through the plates. The most spectacular hits came from the .243. It was a real eye opener.
Penetration through a rigid, non-fluid medium is very different than penetration in a pliable, fluid medium like tissue. In the rigid medium the penetration will be approximated by the KE divided by the presented area of the projectile, or SD times velocity squared.
I shot a 200 lb buck last year with my .280 using the 140 Nosler bt at 150 yds. It entered the right hind quarter and we found the lead core just inside the the hide on the left shoulder.
------------------ From my cold, dead hands! Thanks Chuck!
I was contemplating using 180 gr NBTs out of my 300 win mag. Still might if the 180 gr Partitions dont give me the accuracy I want. Ive always thought that the NBTs were rapid expansion bullets. This is hard for me to comprehend. I have this friend, Cory, he swears by the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Its all he loads... in everything. And he told me to use them as soon as I got my 300 win mag. But I always told him that hes dumb, and to shut up. And that I wouldnt ever shoot a deer, or much less an elk, with a varmint bullet. But you guys are telling me that this ballistic tip actually penetrates. This is good news to me, cause I want ultimate accuracy out of my rifle. So, will a 180 gr NBT going, say about, 3100 to 3190 fps go through an elk's shoulder and through the other side at 300 yards? how about 40?
I've seen first hand both good and questionable performance from Ballistic tips. I've used 100gr. .257 cal on deer with good results and saw not so impressive results in a .270 Win on a big Muley. Yet tests indicate the 200gr. BT in the .338 WM outpenetrated the 210gr. Partition. I know the jackets are heavier on the bigger bullets as they should be, but I guess I'd call Nosler and ask for the specifics of what velocity it can handle. You may get better performance with it when its slower and/or heavier. OR better yet try them and write it up, sell it to a gun rag and stir the pot!!!
I've used the 100 gr BT in 25-06 with good success on deer, antelope, and varmints. I've used the 140 and 150 gr BT in 7mm Rem Mag on deer,antelope,and varmints. I've used the 180 gr BT in 300 Weath Mag on deer and antelope. BUT, I always use Nosler Partitions for elk, auodad sheep(they are one tough mother!) and feral hogs in the 7mag and 300. I have yet to lose an animal using the BT's, but I haven't used them on anything but thin-skinned game, AND a poorly placed shot could surely lose an animal with most any bullet manufactured today. I have been fortunate to have good groups with all of the BT's I have loaded, too....GREG
Nosler Ballistic Tips as an elk bullet... nooooo. I have no experience with the BalTips but all the literature I have read limits it to deer and thin skinned game. I don't know whether this is true or not but what about the Swift Sciroccos... any experience with them, especially as an elk bullet at magnum velocities...
You should look at the test results of the .338 200gr. Nos BT compared to the 210gr. Partition. The BT penetrated better than I ever would have thought and left a bigger wound channel. I don't recommend the BT's on a whole and definately think they are crap in the really fast rounds of smaller cal. I've seen them work on deer like a hammer at modest velocities. If you call Nosler I'd dare to bet they'll tell you the .338 200gr. BT would be a good choice for Elk.
My last 6 whitetails have been taken with a ballistic tip and all 6 have been complete pass throughs with great exit wounds. 1 was shot quartering away at a pretty good angle- and shot right behind the ribs- broke the front shoulder joint- and made 2 exit holes about the size of quarters. Plenty good enough for me... This maybe way off base- as I have not hunted elk -yet- but I don't see a problem with a Ballistic Tip (in a heavy version) being used on an elk. I have read the 1000 stories and seen all the videos where they stand there like they have never even been hit. If a Partition mushrooms and blows on through- 2 holes are always better than 1- but if a BT hits and fragments- most of the energy is spent INSIDE the elk- and all the pieces do some serious internal damage. In either case- you have one very dead elk in no time. I think- as I replyed to a post a few weeks ago- we are in age where it must hit the ground right after the shot- or some part of our equipment failed. I seriously disagree.... I love to bowhunt and am rather proficient at tracking wounded whitetails... having shot 75 of my own- and tracking about the same number from each of my 3 brothers... it is a very important part of our hunting experience. To think that an animal that walks away from a fatal gun shot is an equipment failure is not giving much credit to the animals we pursue (deer sized game). If anyone doesn't think a whitetail is tough- than they have not seen a spine shot buck crawl 200 yards dragging its rear- or one get hit by a truck, so hard that both antlers break, and then get up a run off like nothing ever happened. I have seen many more - but my point is- shoot em once where it counts- than give a few minutes, and you a few minutes as well, than go track that wonderful trail to your trophy, if you made the shot count-with whatever you choose to use, your trophy will be there- dead.
I once shot a ~300 lb. boar going away at 50 yards with a .45 colt loaded with a 325gr. cast bullet moving at 1300 fps. The bullet entered the rump went completely through lengthwise taking out the spine and exiting the chest. The bullet then proceeded to strike a tree (very easy to see with bark flying everywhere!)I dug the bullet out of the tree (it had gone in about 3 inches) and weighed it. It weighed 315 grains and was hardly damaged. Cast bullets are very impressive!
------------------ "If it ain't a 45/70, it's just a passing fad"
Posts: 487 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 07 December 2001
There is no need to go pokeing an Elk with a Ballistic Tip when the Partition is so much better for the job. The .338 200gr BT might be a different proposition but even then I would opt for either the 210 or 225 Partition.
Posts: 400 | Location: Murfreesboro,TN,USA | Registered: 16 January 2002
I have had some bad experiences with BT's in a 6mm-95gr and my 7mm RM.All failures were up close say 50 yds and less.The above 30 cal BT's are a different bullet which are not to be compared with the 30 cal and under bullets.Partitions or A-frames would be my choice for Elk.
Posts: 1111 | Location: Edmond,OK | Registered: 14 March 2001
In years past when Nosler first brought out the BT in hunting calibers, they were very frangible. Since, oh, I don't know '96 or '97 maybe? They have gone to a heavier tapered jacket on the larger calibers from say heavier 6mm's on up, I think of them as the old solid bases with a polycarbonate tip. Light for caliber bullets should be considered varmint bullets. I may be all wet on the dates, but they did implement a change in construction. The old tales of frangiblity die slow, granted the smaller calibers still are frangible. FWIW, Gary
Try them and your opinion will change. They work on deer pretty well and shoot great. But, If you insist they are so bad try thier imitator! ( Hornady SST, which is a interlock with a pretty tip)
Howdy Jeremy, did you go to the cavalry game tonight? Close one. We still are a perfect 0-5. As for the Noslers, they are some of the most accurate pills around. If I want to find out if a rifle will shoot, I'll put B-Tips through it. That eliminates one variable in my mind. Hell, I have an AUG that will shoot around 0.5" with them, everything else I've tried= 1-2". I've seen several elk and many, many deer meet their demise on that pretty little point(no not from the AUG- you smart asses!) Not to mention, coyotes, rockchucks, fox, sod poodles, etc. One of the most impressive chuck loads that I've tried are 120 grain BT's out of a 7 Rem. Mag. at around 3550 fps. Hang time. Later, Gary Btw: I like the pretty points on the Hornadys and Sierras and Scirroccos as well.
Dont use cedar as an indicater of how well a bullet penatrates. I can't remember stopping even a modest round in cedar blocks. I check the sights on 22 RF's and 17 hornet ect on knots of the nearest fencepost at the barn and even they will go through a 6" post like butter. Actually, 6" of butter would likely stop bullets better then the cedar!
Posts: 941 | Location: VT | Registered: 17 May 2001
I have used the Nosler B.T. for deer hunting for years without a failure. By mistake I grabbed a box of 125 gr. B.T. coyote loads (3160 fps from my .308 Win.) instead of the 150 gr. B.T.'s to go deer hunting in Kentucky. I didn't discover it till I got up the next morning to go to the stand. Well it was a 3 hour drive home and I wanted to hunt so I went hunting anyway. As luck would have it I hadn't been in the stand but 30 minutes or so and here came a nice 9 point at a range of about 25 yards. Held low on the chest over the heart and pulled the trigger. He hit the ground at the shot, penetration was complete with an exit wound the size of a golf ball. Three days later I killed a doe at about 75 yards again a one shot instant kill with complete pentrations. Over the next two years I took 4 more deer with that bullet all one shot kills that exited. I do know the 150 or 165 B.T. are far better for deer, but I think the B.T. has a bum rap for not pentrating. I have never hunted elk but I darn sure wouldn't stay home if all I had was B.T.'s. for my .308 Win. I have a hard time believing a 180 gr. B.T. over a stiff load of IMR 4350 wouldn't work.
Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight....RiverRat
Posts: 413 | Location: Owensville, Indiana USA | Registered: 04 July 2001
I've been using NBTS in several calibers since the first year they came out. In fact, I had the first box in Nebraska.
I have never had anything but optimal performance from BTs. I have never had one "blow up" or come apart. Out of several hundreds of big game I've killed with them I've only had a couple not completely penetrate.
I never could figure out where this frangible bullet myth started.
100 grainers in a .25-06 at about 3300 fps "kills like chain lightnin'".
------------------ The older I get the better I was.
I have a section of land out here that's flat down the middle for almost a mile then turns up hill just a little. The next section over has a large hill for a backstop. Last year I dug up some scrap pices of mile steel, both 12" X 12", and an inch thick. I drilled hole in both pieces, pained them orange and hung one at 175 years and the other at 350 yards and started shooting. I was using Combined Technology 180 Silver Tips out of my 300 Winchester. That was my first experiment with thsoe bullest. The metal target did clang when hit and shake when hit. It was an eye opener checking the targets. Each hit looked like the metal was liquid when the bullet hit. It made a perfect splash that sort of stayed frozen in the air. There was a hole about an inche across and almost 3/4 inch deep on every hit. There was no difference in the 175 yard target and the 350. I.m not going to draw any conclusions from this, except to say, a 12 X 12 orange blaze target is awful small at 350 measured yards. And I shoot a lot.
Posts: 631 | Location: North Dakota | Registered: 14 March 2002
Howdy Ol' Sarge, well I experienced it with 130 gr. bullets out of my .270 win. Doe antelope, 6 shots, bad juju. Ok, this was one instance only, but it soured me for 3-4 years on those puppies. I'm all better now.
Rodger- 12" x 12" is a pretty standard target at 350. I don't want to start anything like the matchking "I'm better than you" deal- but I have been shooting at 400 and have little trouble hitting 1# hogdon powder bottles filled with water. My best group at 400 is 5 shots just over 3 inches. My steel target is 10" x 12" and does the same as you posted- melts holes 1/2 inch deep. The best thing about long range practice is that the 250 yard shot is almost a chipshot.
the nosler bt is not a good bullet for Elk. the biggest deal is the bullet can fully expand on the hide! an Elk hide will weigh 40-60 lbs. and is not considered thin. these bullets mostly will expand to the best of their ability as fast as possible. meaning on thick skinned animals right away. it may penetrate the vitals but the major part of the energy will be on the outside not the inside where you want it. a partition is call a "controlled expansion bullet" as it by construction cannot "overexpand" the tip falls of on expansion the rear core stays with the back half and continues to work. the BT(even the sturdy ones) is designed to keep expanding(nothing to stop it) as fast as possible until all available energy is used up. ballistic tips are not a good choice for Elk or other thicker skinned animals.
Awknod-I guess the two elk and two moose I shot with the 180gr ballistic tip were thinner skinned than nornal as three of the bullets exited and the fourth stopped against the hide after passing through the chest cavity and offside shoulder.The ballistic tip my partner shot his moose with also exited after passing through the 1200 lb bull.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
quote:Originally posted by FarRight: Nosler Ballistic Tips as an elk bullet... nooooo. I have no experience with the BalTips but all the literature I have read limits it to deer and thin skinned game. I don't know whether this is true or not but what about the Swift Sciroccos... any experience with them, especially as an elk bullet at magnum velocities...
FarRight,the last couple issues of Handloader,John Barsness(sp)has been writing about the Scirocco and has related dumping elk with them in 7mm mag. Saw another article,maybe the same Mag,someone using them on elk in 30 cal.I'v got some loaded up for my 7RUM,probably get out to testfire them next weekend.I don't know if the Swift manual is out yet but I'v been told to start loads 2-3grs below min,re. similar bullets,as the bearing surface is much longer.At the 24hour campfire, Dave King cross sectioned some bullets including the Scirocco,its under Long Range Hunting. As for the BTs I used a 100 gr BT in my 25.06 last year,shot a large 4 point blacktail that was quartering away from me.Hit the right upper rib area and recovered the perfectly expanded bullet under the fat layer lower left chest area. I'll use them again this year. Jeff
Posts: 236 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 16 October 2001
