Quailwing, et al ...............
The reason that there are no stats is that every manufacturer wants you to think that his scope is best so that you will buy the "BESTEST SCOPE ALIVE." Sorry guys !!!!! There is no Bestest Scope. For every advantage with a scope you pay a price. Long eye relief... narrow field of view, good light reception ... larger tube and megaphone objective, this and that.... that and this. But you can get it all in a Euro ... except that they are heavy enough to use for a boat anchor because of the large tube and all of the lenses, and totally throw off the balance of the rifle. While it is most often true that you get what you pay for, there are many exceptions to the rule.
There is no best ..... each of us shoots the scope that suits our needs and has few enough faults that we can live with them. Example: i use a leupold m8 in 2.5 x on my sheep rifle because leupold probably makes the toughest scope alive and can handle the reality of climbing up scrabble and jumping talus, in spite of the fact that leupolds don't gather light for sh--. I use a 25 year-old Bushnell ScopeChief VI 1.5 x 4.5 by Bausch & Laumb on my 338 for moose and forest deer and even caribou because it has trajicon cross-hairs and is so bright that it can see in the dark, which is what Alaska is like sometimes in the rain even at noon... but i had to learn to target despite the paralax.
The people i endure as hunting and fishing buddies are like dogs smelling butts.. you got a new piece of gear and everyone wants to check it out. Ha !!!! Some of these guys have absolutely no taste (according to me), yet they continue to catch fish and bring home the game IN SPITE of what i tell them about the gear that they are using.

Kinda like one of the guys who lives with this 27 y/o stripper and can/t hardly tie his shoes in the morning... while one of the other guys lives with a gal who wears waders when she fishes, and can pack and cook the best moose sausage and grits you will ever have in camp. Which is best ??? The one that you prefer, the one you think fits your needs....... today....... It is ALL subjective... it can ALL be argued... and, in the end, you live with what you choose.

Pete E: Pardon my slow reply! I have been out Hunting Deer, Bear and Elk here in "sunny" SW Montana. Luck was with me as I brought to bag my first ever trophy 6x6 Bull Elk. And as I posted earlier my extensive western North American Big Game Hunting is done during the hours when game is most prevelent and moving the most i.e.: when the sun is low. Contrary to your allegations.
You see I killed this 6x6 trophy Bull Elk when the sun was just cresting in the east. I was shooting in a south easterly direction and from on high as is the case with much of my Big Game harvesting. I like to be above my intended quarry whether it is Mt. Goat or Mulie, Antelope or Elk the shot is usually clearer and the angle to obtain better bullet lethality is better from above ones quarry.
This on high positioning precludes any troubles with your alleged flaring! Terradactyl Hunting may be the lone exception.
My Leupold variable scope performed flawlessly and no sun spots or changing colors of reticles was evident!
Again I will repeat I have NEVER lost a shot at a head of Big Game due to Leupold scopes "gathering" to much light!
Leupold scopes performed very well indeed in my experience and observations in the Big Game fields I use! Have you an extensive amount of "sun spotting" occur to you with the scopes (Leupolds) that you prefer not to use?
I have an extensive amount of experience with Leupolds in the Big Game fields in all hours of legal Hunting and have NEVER been disappointed in them. Not ONCE!
I much prefer Leupold reticle choices to anything Swarovski offers! That is a preference on my part as is the preference you seemingly have for other options! That is not a valid slight of Leupold. You simply prefer something else. I can't understand why one of Leupolds MANY reticle options would not work well for you! Perhaps you don't want them to?
You, gentle poster, have not seen "conditions" until you have bailed out of your camp or Hunting vehicle (like I have done hundreds of times!) into an Olympic Penninsula Rain Forest rain storm, Cascade Range down pour, southeast Alaska monsoon (lasting weeks sometimes) or into a 25 to 35 degree below zero ice storm in the Rocky Mountains. I have never owned or seen a Leupold fail in these extremes! It may have happened to your cousins, fiances, Uncles, friend - but I Hunt virtually year round with Leupolds and they perform - period!
I have had many dozens of occassions to sight into shadows with my Leupold scopes and have never ONCE felt slighted out of a shot by the image produced by those Leupolds!
I think you protest without benefit of actual field experience here! There can be no other explanation.
You may very well be right in your observation that some scope other than Leupold can "see" into darkness better than Leupolds but I simply have to much first hand succesful experience to be swayed in any manner what so ever by your ambiguous non specific argument and conjecture! Leupolds "see" into shadows just fine!
I know better than what you are implying, if I can be more specific!
I have no idea what so ever if your choices work for you or not just do not try and tell me that Leupolds do not perform in any legal Hunting light - dawn or dusk! I know better!
I also have no idea what you are referring when you say "take the p*ss all you want"! Sounds like more ambiguous and without merit tripe so I will not take the time to open another can of "whup ass" (an American saying!) on you in that regard now.
You mention short Deer seasons. Well I have Hunted Deer from early September (High Cascades Deer Hunt in Washington state) to the first of December (some years in the state of Montana) in addition I have Hunted Antelope, Mt. Goat, Elk, Bear, Moose and Mt. Lion. Some of the Bear Hunts in the spring run here in Montana for nearly two months alone! The Rifle Deer season in the state I live in now runs from September 19th to November 28th (in area 320 alone)! That seems more like 10 weeks (71 days!) on my American calender! So don't try and besmirch Leupolds SOMEHOW based on your erroneous conjecture - seasons wise!
Your "flaring" Leupold theory is just not going over with me! Again I have used them ENOUGH to know better!
To anyone interested in buying Leupold I suggest if you are unduly influenced by any of this anti-Leupold scope bashing just go borrow one (there are LOTS of them around!) and use it some early morn or late evening (as I have!) to aim toward and beside the rising or setting sun! Then try and calculate in your own mind how often you think the Leupold - or any scope for that matter - will be aimed toward the sun enough to make a shot impossible. I have never experienced this oft alluded to impossible shot!
Leupolds are a reliable and excellent scope! Their design, reticles, power offerings, weather resistance, abillity to maintain zero and inherent (doesn't go away) value makes them an EXCELLENT choice for Big Game Hunting!
9 of 10 Hunters I have Hunted alongside so far this Antelope, Deer, Bear and Elk season have chosen them! No complaints from any of them!
Long live Leupold!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Pete,
I totally agree with you. On our side of the pond (and their) there are MANY alternatives that do beat Leupold optics hands down every time in difficult light at similar price.

But just do as I do, ignore Varmint Guy, he is by all means a very gifted hunter and an experienced one but totally brainwashed when it comes to optics.

Its kind of weird that someone can disregard so many test performed by unbiased third party testing facilities with the proper equipment to test optics.

Maybe Leupold is a good buy in the US, it's sure as hell not on our side of the pond. Poor low light performance, small field of view, variable eye relief so one cannot ever mount the scope to fit and the only brand I know that instantly drops to less than half price from having the rapping taken off the box.

The ones interesting to help out a company "making" scopes in the US good for you that you are so patriotic. For the rest of us there are many better, much better alternatives out there.

Varmint Guy, even though this came out as an attack on you personally it's not meant to be. From many other strands on this forum I appreciate your opinion but unfortunately not concerning this subject. I have a hard time taking you seriously when the only thing you can come up with are the same old arguments you have posted SO many times here.

As far as I have red you have never tested different brands and in my opinion that is actually required before one can have an opinion.

In my daily work I have the chance to test all kinds of optics at optical test boards, check field of view and all mentioned above. We also let customers do this by themselves and Leupold is one of the brands that do not move to the ones that does. Wonder why......

Reply - added comments to PeteE and Sauer100

Generally, my experience has been you get what you pay for. However, in many 'disputes', part of the problem lies in a poorly defined program of work.

I have:

Schmidt & Bender 4x36 & 6x42
Zeiss (W. Germany) 6x42
Gerhardt/Nickel 4x36

I have used, not owned:

Leupold 6x42
Pecar, Berlin 4x40
Schmidt & Bender 1.25-4x20
Swarovski 1.25-4-24
and some others.

My impressions are:

'European' scope adjustment clicks are more repeatable than Far Eastern made scopes, but I admit not to having handled Nikon & Pentax products;

The quality of European lens coatings are generally better;

'European' scopes have short eye relief, compared to Leupolds etc

'European' scopes are heavier than comparable American 'scopes

'European' scopes waterproofing is not always as good as Leupold.

For me, the contrasts between American and European scopes are best covered in 'Barneses' (Cannot remember the correct spelling) book Optics for Hunters. I summarize his points below.

American hunters do not hunt in near darkness / the dark - legal shooting hours. Europeans shoot wild boar etc by moonlight from elevated platforms. Providing there is sufficient light to make out the target, they are allowed to shoot.

European rifles are generally heavier in weight than American rifles, Mountain rifle types are less common. Additionally, European rifles are generally chambered for lighter cartridges - .30-06 and below, whereas American Elk hunters etc use .300 magnums and .338 magnums.

Therefore, recoil - eye relief is a more important deciding factor in American hunting field than in Europe.

A simple optical fact:

You cannot have both field of view and eye relief in a telescopic sight.

For me, the most important factors are matching the equipment to the game. Apology for the pun.

A fast handling rifle for use against dangerous game, where the shooting range is close to say 150 yards, should be mounted as low as possible over the receiver without interfering with manipulating the bolt. As the targets are large, you really do not need great magnification.

If you shoot during daylight hours in fairly open conditions, how much light gathering / size of objective lens do you really need? Remember, the max size the eye can dilate to is approx 7mm. For those in their forties, I believe the figure reduces to approx. 5mm.

Any more light than 42 / 6 = 7mm is wasted because your eye cannot make use of it. But the 'scope will be heavier and will have to be mounted higher because of the front lens diameter. This will make the rifle less balanced / unwieldy.

This is off thread somewhat, but my reading of the posts is, maybe the writers are discussing different things, comparing apples and pears.

I've never owned a Leuy, so there is not much I can say, except that I have, on a couple of occasions, compared them side by side with same model Zeiss Conquests. To my eye, the Zeiss had slightly better resolution and was slightly brighter. For similar money I went with the Zeiss, twice.

Stubblejumper,

I agree with your comments, with the exception of Leupold failures. I have owned 4 or 5 Leupolds over the years, I only own one now as all the others died! Leupold would fix the scopes but after the second repair they would strongly "suggest" I not put it back on to whatever rifle I was using! The Leupold optics and my eyes don't get along very well either, as their reticles seem to fade away, except for the heavy duplex! The only Leupold I still own is a shotgun Var XII 1-4 which has survived ~ 100 12 gauge slugs, ~ 1500 rounds of 458 Win mag, and ~ 350 rounds of 500 AHR (I now knock on wood hoping the scope doesn't decide the die).

I have had Leupold VarX III scopes die on rifles as dimunitive as a M70 Classic 300 Weatherby, and die within 40 or 50 rounds! Granted once Leupold rebuilt then they seemed to improve in reliability by a factor of 3 or 4, but that still isn't impressive nor worth the $600 price tag. Nor does it account for the reticle fading out, big problem when shooting at longer ranges I might add.

In my opinion, a Leupold VarX III is the best $250 scope one can buy for $600! They are a sick joke, and they feed off of the "buy American" loyality of American sportsman. I would love to buy Leupold scopes, but they will NEED to actually perform before I go back to them, not just talk about it! Before anyone starts braggin' about LPS, ever notice how similar they are in outward appearance to a Zeiss Conquest? Wonder why? Ask yourself why they are ~ 25% more than the Zeiss Conquest are, and with inferior optics to boot! Like I said before, they are taking advantage of the American sportsman's loyalty to make a BIG profit, disgusting if you ask me!

With the exception of the aforementioned Leupold, all my other scopes are Zeiss, I have nothing but praise for these Zeiss scopes, better optics, more durable, EXTREMELY more reliable, etc, etc. I don't shoot BB guns like most guys do, it takes me only a few shots to seperate the "men from the boys" when it comes to scopes!

ASS_CLOWN

PS - I have had much better reliability from Burris than I ever did with Leupold. Also when the Burris grenades, they seem to really grenade (as chipped lenses, bits of internal peices floating around, which undoubtedly chipped the lenses, etc, etc. You get a NEW scope then not a rebuild)

Pete E: Well Pete E if you are not impressed with the brightness of Leupold scopes I fail to understand why! They are bright and clear and do not impart eyestrain to the user during extended range work. They are rugged, reliable and handsome scopes proven now for many decades! And they are usually much cheaper than european scopes. The Leupolds perform every bit as well in the fields as the european scopes that I have observed and yet I concede that the european made scopes may just impart an image that is barely perceieved to be brighter as measured by machines! The Hunter in legal Hunting hours will NEVER be handicapped by the Leupolds image! At least I nor my legion of Hunting friends never have. And indeed (I will state again) I also use many of my Leupolds year round and for night Hunting of Varmints here in North America. The Leupolds perform VERY well in this type endeavor also.
I just will not stand by and let unfounded tripe from Hunters, anywhere on earth, besmirch (unfoundedly!) the excellent Leupold line of Hunting scopes!
Peter open your closed mind and let some sun shine in - so to speak - I Hunt year round with my Leupolds every bit as much and usually much much more than the majority of the worlds Hunters. Leupolds perform exceedingly well in all conditions and situations!
Let me restate and maybe you can pick up on it this time regarding reticles - your PREFERENCE for some other reticle other than the ones offered by Leupold is just that - YOUR PREFERENCE. I have no qualms with that other than to wonder why someone who CLAIMS to be a year round Deer Hunter can not find a pleasing retcle in Leupolds extensive reticle line! I am still, puzzled by your "preference"!
Your snide attempt at again trying to besmirch the excellent Leupold line by describing them as only "decent" is a clear indication of your vast INEXPERIENCE!
I am leaving on a Big Game Hunt in a few days and one of my partners is travelling a significant fraction of the distance around the world just to get to our Hunting locale! He does not trust ANY scope but Leupold (in Leupold mounts and rings by the way!) to hold and maintain zero in his world travels! I concur with him completely! Save some of your money, save some worry, save a lot of headaches and buy Leupold to begin with! Greta value and great performance.
Try and get timely service on your schidt and bender scope or your swarovski for that matter the next time you need it!
I highly recommend the Leupold line and this comes from decades of experience and observation!
You are so lucky you EXEMPTED the Leupold line completely from your ambiguous assertion regarding fogging! I would have had to have opened ANOTHER can of real world WHUP ASS on you then and there! Be real careful with your grandiose and unfounded in experience, declarations - because I WILL not hesitate to correct you when need be!
So are you trying to tell me that your diminutive country has weather extremes that out tests the weather in North America? I certainly hope not! We call that talking out your ass here in the U.S.! I Hunt in the summers here in my state alone and the temperatures often exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit! Then come winter time I have Hunted in temeperaturses as low as 45 degrees belwo zero (November 1985 Montana!) let alone deep snows and freezing rains and sleet and temperatures swings often of 50 degrees+ in 24 hours. No I do not think Scotland holds even a small candle beside the extreme and often very difficult conditions routinely encountered here in North America.
You are just not going to be able, with any credibility, to besmirch the fine Leupold line! Not without me correcting you! And your now admitted lack of ANY experience what so ever with Leupolds in the field, well, I could have guessed that in fact you have no experience with Leupolds.
Why don't you come back with a learned opinion in say 2 or 3 decades ONCE you have some experience!
Until then I consider you just another Leupold basher/naysayer who simply does not know what they are talking about!
Good luck this season on the Deer and let me know if you get a few shots at those pesky Terradactyls!
Long live the fine Leupold line!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sauer 150: Oh oh it looks like you are another "no experience" Leupold naysayer looking for a trip out behind the woodshed and in need of enlightening by the "whup ass with reality" method.

You go right ahead and ignore me AND try to ignore the most popular Hunting (and target!) scope in the world! Leupold! That type of ignoring is called ignorance where I come from!

Oh I have owned and used AND sold optics from many european manufacturrers. The last one I sold of my own was from the Zeiss folks as I recall. The european Hunting scopes in my experience are overpriced, awkward, and easily matched with much less expensive scopes! And they are and were no where near as reliable as a Leupold Hunting scope!

Leaving those preferences aside I will implore you to instill upon us your vast experiences with Leupold scopes and be perfectly direct and clear on just exactly what it is YOU THINK they can not do!

I have read at least five times as much regarding scope tests and "laboratory" comparisons of scopes as most all Hunters. Those comparisons do not tell me that Leupolds do not perform reliably in the field and at the bench (where they are clearly the worlds best!) so again I implore you to espouse your facts! Instead of your version of "attacking me" with unclear rumors just burp up what it is YOU THINK Leupolds can not do? But be forewarned, whether you are ignoring me or not, I will refute any and all untruths you may drag out of your "experiences" or rumor mill or where ever you get the tripe you relay.

For a couple of decades I sold Leupold optics (and all other available brands) as well. And during this time I had a customer who was by coincidence a fellow that made his living buying Chevrolet suburbans (he preferred the older diesel models) in the Seattle/Tacoma, Washington area of the U.S.A. and he would resell them in his home country of Norway and also in Sweden! He made a profit and was a frequent visitor to the area I used to live in. He began, and then kept, buying Leupold scopes from me! At first just one and two at a time and then 3 and 4 at a time. I finally became curious and asked him what he was doing with so many scopes? His explanation was, and I will quote "the Leupolds are so dependable and such a better buy than anything his countrymen could get"! Now this is a fellow that laid down hard earned cash and made a choice of scope brands and had many happy customers. At least I never heard a complaint from him!

And no, you are absolutely wrong there are not "many" nor ANY scope manufacturers that make MUCH BETTER Hunting scopes than Leupold! There may be one or two companies that make SLIGHTLY better scopes than Leupold but for the price difference then with those I again submit that Leupold is the better scope value!

Do not exagerate (lie), please, as this is unbecoming and I will point it out whenever you try to do so!

Yes I wonder about your optical job that allows Hunters from around the world to compare all available optics! And I wonder why Leupold scopes are still then the best selling scopes in the world? Contrary to your contention? Maybe the world is just not listening to you Leupold bashers and naysayers and the worlds Hunters are instead using Leupolds more than any other Hunting scope because they know that Leupolds are in fact great performing and reliable scopes! Along with the Leupolds being weatherproof, hold their zero, have bright and clear optics and contary to that contrary of contraries (arse bandit!) they do hold up to heavy recoiling Rifles. His outlandish and irresponsible untruths regarding Leupolds puts even your blather to shame!

And that my european friend - was difficult to do!

Long live the fine Leupold line!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

robthom,

Interesting observations..One thing a dissagree with which always seem to happen with these discussions is that it breaks down to "European" scopes ~v~ Leupold.

The reason I disagree with this is simply that not all European scopes are of the same quality.

You have optics firms like Seedler, "Lensfield of Germany" and Duech Optic (sp?) which are more comparable in price/ quality with TASCO then you have mid range scopes like Meopta, DOCTOR and perhaps Kahles, then you have the top end such S&B, Swarovski PH, and German Zeiss...

Therefore, I think individual brands have to be compared to get a true picture.

With regards eye relief as already stated, you can get Zeiss with 4" eye relief or S&B with 3.7" so that is no longer white such a black and white issue.

You also made the comment that you can't have long eye relief and a big field of view.

I used to think that, but now I am not so sure.

Lets say the exit pupil of a scope is 12mm (thats being very generous) the actual ocular lens (and the other internal lens) are typically at least twice that in size. That occular lens "projects" the image so it is focused at a certain distance behind the lens in effect the eye relief and this is therefore not like looking down a simple tube where FOV is proportional to the eye relief.

As an example look at the "top end" Simmons variable with the Aspherical lens...I can't remember the model name, but it is something like a 2.5-10x40...That has a huge eye relief with something like 4.7" and still retains a good field of view. Somebody also posted information about a "Safari" scope from a European maker (might be a new Gerhardt/Nickel) which had a 5" eye relief and a good field of view; it was however extremely expensive, more than either Swarovski or Zeiss so I did not really pay much attention.

With regards waterproofness, I personally know of one Swarovski sent back whenit was about 10 years old because it fogged. However that had been on a rifle that had blown up and the scope was never checked following the acciedent. It went onto a replacement rifle and although it looked ok, about three months later it failed...Swarovski repaired and returned the item in about 4 weeks...Other than that I can't remember when I heard about the last top end scope failing...Doctor, yes, but not the likes S&B or Swarovski...I am sure it must happen but generally i have found them very, very reliable.

Regards,

Pete