I don't see much about using a dog for stalking (and tracking any subsequently wounded) deer (read hunting big game)in the States. Here in the UK it's optional, in Scandinavia it's compulsory.

Some of the stuff I read eg the aforementioned Col Boddington multiple shooting of elk with heavy ordinance when a good hit is known makes me wonder. Why not use a lower recoiling calibre with proven penetrative ability, see where the shot went into the animal and allow your dog to follow the blood trail of a heart lung shot that must surely be fatal?

nb No intention to rubbish hunting practices I know very little about, just trying to foster understanding/debate.

You don't see much of that in Canada, at least not out west.

In British Columbia it is illegal to use dogs to pursue big game (ungulates). You can take them with you while hunting ungulates but they must remain on a leash. I don't see why you couldn't use one for tracking wounded game if it remained on the leash.

I use my dog for packing, but since he has been disciplined for chasing deer etc, I doubt he'd be much help tracking one. He is a Labrador Retriever so his nose is more interested in things with feathers.

Canuck

[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 04-30-2001).]

1894,

Similar to Canuck's comments, the use of dogs to track big game is illegal in a lot of states here in the U.S. There are exceptions in either game species hunted (e.g. mt. lion) or state, but for the most part, using dogs is a big no-no. A cultural (or lack thereof ) thing I guess?!

Here in NC there are two schools of thoughton the subject of using dogs/hounds for deer hunting.. Hunting deer with dogs is permissable in many counties. But in my opinion it gives us all a bad name. Many if not most hunters ignore property lines when turning their dogs out. I have heard the old saying that "dogs can't read posted signs" a thousand times. But their handlers sure as hell can but choose not to. It is also damn frustrating to spend hours scouting where a buck is using, climb into a tree stand at 5:00 am, freeze my backside until sunrise, only to have a pack of mangy curs come through and run everything out of the woods, while their "masters" are sitting in trucks by the road side and hollering into CB radioes and raising all kinds of hell. Then when the deer appraoches the road the "hunters" start blasting away. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a listening to a good chase as much as anyone, but the slobs in this neck of the woods are not helping our image. Nor would I want to eat venison that came from a deer that has been running from a pack hounds for an hour or more. I fear that this whole issue of hunting with dogs will come to a head in the next few years. I do know that there are fewer and fewer landowners that are allowing hunting clubs to run dogs in this area.

Crowrifle,

There is a distinction between using dogs
for hunting deer and using them for following up wounded deer. In the UK, many stalkers
use a dog (usually a gundog of some sort)
to find a beast which has been mortally hit/wounded, but made it into cover. I would imagine an elk would be easy to find due to its size, but our muntjac are about the size of a spaniel and they can dissapear if it falls over in 6" grass:-)

The Brits have really followed German practice in this area, and the "best" dogs for the job originate in that part of the world ie GWP's, GSP's, and Baverian (sp?)
Mountain Blood Hounds. I myself use a Border
Terrier, which is quite entertaining at times!!

We also hunt deer with hounds similar to you describe, but that is a totally different sport to stalking and has its own issues
as you mention.

Regards

Pete

My own lab bitch is trained for deer work. There is often confusion over stalking with a dog and tearing through the woods with sighthounds. For the benefit of our friends from across the pond I will translate from English into (English American) .

This tends to be only useful when stalking (hunting) on foot through woodland into or across wind. My bitch walks at heel - no lead required - as we move very slowly through through the forest. My eyes are approx 5 feet higher than those of my dog so I tend to see deer first. My dog has a better nose than me so she smells them first. When she smells a deer she will tell me by repeatedly sniffing and raising her nose in the direction of the smell.

Extra alert I then spot the deer and drop it with a single shot from my 6.5x55. Most often the deer will fall when hit but often they run (especially with a low heart shot) into thick cover before falling. As much of the deer stalking in the UK is done right at last light it could take a long time to find the deer.

Now the dog gets to follow the blood trail. She usually casts around 20 feet in front of me and guides me onto the carcass. If the deer has some life left in it then I call the dogs back as I do not want her fighting the deer - and those little muntjac have savage teeth. So far this has not happened that often as I tend not to shoot much over 100 yards. I reward the dogs with a piece of lung and we all go home happy.

The bitch is also trained for retrieving birds. I have found no conflict here, in fact I believe that if the dog is trained for deer first she will be steadier on birds.

Non UK readers - Do not be confused with Deer Stalking with a dog with Stag Hunting. Confusingly, "Stag Hunting" in the UK is an entirely different subject. In short, the deer is chased across open land by a pack of sight hounds and a group of huntsmen mounted on horseback. After a chase the deer is usually cornered and shot at very close range with a pistol. I do not know what the venison tastes like. I have never done it and I am no expert. This sport is almost completely extinct in the UK. Our socialist government are trying to ban it altogether, together with Fox Hunting. I understand it is growing in popularity in France.

I was lucky enough to be hunting Impala and Kudu in Zimbabwe last week. The PH was training his 6lb Jack Russell to follow up a blood trail on a 600lb Kudu bull!

Gentlemen, I have found this thread very interesting. I have often thought that having a dog trained to find hit game would be wonderful. I usually think this when I'm helping trail deer through some brier-choked hellhole.

Being in NC also, I have had many hunts ruined by hound hunters.

I had no idea dogs were used to big game hunt in Scandinavia. I would like to learn more about it. I plan on having my next Golden Retreiver assist me in that department. As for having a dog at your side during a stalk, that must be quite a thrill, and said hunter must be quite a dog trainer! This sounds very rewarding. It would be nice to have the dog's sense of smell to assist you. My own beloved dog would often see game before I did. She did this many times during our jogs/walks. I wish I would have tried her for tracking work.

Good hunting, Talus

Greetings!

I live in Nebraska, and have contacted our Game & Parks dept. regarding this very subject. They informed me that it is illegal to hunt deer with dogs (running with hounds). But it is perfectly legal to take a dog with me while deer hunting, and use it to track a wounded deer.

This is good news to me. I have Pudelpointers, and they are terrific trackers. I feel if they can track a wounded pheasant accross the prairie, or a duck in a marsh, then they should not have any trouble tracking a wounded deer.

Most states do not allow hunting deer with hounds and I think we assume that includes any use of dogs whatsoever.

I encourage you to contact you Game & Fish dept. for clarification. you may be pleasantly surprised.

Mark.

Deerdogs,

If you want to create from confusion find
an American gundog forum and tell them you
have a Pointing Lab and then watch the fireworks:-)

While I agree with 99% of your post, I reckon
you gave would give the average Huntsman
a cornary suggesting he rides to sighthounds (lurchers ect):-) For the benifit of our American friends, Stag Hunting in the UK is actually carried out with a type of Fox Hound and difinately not with Deerhounds which are a type of sighthound and also therefore a "cur".

Next lesson: "Paints and Pins" and "How many
Fewmets to the Crottie" :-)

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 05-01-2001).]

Different laws in different places. In Idaho, no dogs allowed, period. Now, if you don't carry a weapon, you aren't hunting, and you could go for a walk with your dog, which would not preclude finding a dead deer. However, putting the tag on would constitute hunting......

Convoluted? Yup.

Dutch.

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For evil to prosper, good men must do nothing. (Burke)

As a southerner I grew up dog hunting for deer. The places where dogs are most effective are in the large thick swamp area's. I belong to a hunting club located in south Georgia on the edge of the Okeefenokee Swamp. We only dog hunt the last weekend of the season mainly for nostalgia reasons. It takes a large tract of land to use for dog hunting and most club sizes are shrinking due to rising prices. We have 9,000 acres of some very thick woods but as has always been true the big bucks are killed stand hunting. As to using dogs to track wounded animals we have always done this. We use a good cold trail dog on a leash. Lately Labs have been the preferred breed, we usually train them with deer legs, hooves from cleaned deer. We drag them through the woods and work the dog. These dogs generally help find 5-6 deer per season that would be lost.

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This thread so intrigued me I called up our DNR and talked to a warden. The Illinois hunting regs say no dogs allowed for hunting, and the state warden interpreted that to mean that you can't follow up wounded deer with them, and you don't know if the deer has been wounded or killed (which would be legal) so if you do it you have to leave the shooting irons at home in order to comply with the law. After that, he said that you should contact your local game warden and ask him for permission, he might give it but either way he would be the one writing the ticket so it would be smart to talk to him at any rate..

Gentlemen:

It is a pleasure to chat with our hunting brethren in the U.K. Here in California, it is legal to hunt deer with dogs, but you are restricted to one dog. Most of the people I know of who use a dog, do so to locate deer in heavy cover, and trail a wounded deer in heavy cover. It sounds like we use dogs here in California in much the same way as "1894" has suggested.

Interesting.

Gentlemen..
Interesting thread. First..I�m not a dog man my self, but hunting big game for many years, and beeing part og a moose hunting team for some years, I�m used to dogs while hunting.
Here in Norway its mandatory to have access to a sertified spoorhound / tracking dog when hunting big game. That goes from roe deer and up.
The main reason are tracking and finding wounded game, or game that runs off into high grass or dense bush or timber before laying down.
Active use of dogs on moose hunt is an age old tradition in Norway, and also Sweden and Finland as far as I know.
They my be on a lash, and used the same way as Deeerdog describe, or left to run free.

Hunting slowly upwind for moose or red deer in the woods with a lash dog is one of the most exiting ways of hunting. The dog can smell deer far away. And then start the stalk in, with combination of eysight, and reading the dog is an adrenaline kick I tell you !!

Free running moose dogs track moose and usually keep them at bay barking and jumping around, while the hunter sneaks in and finish the moose at close range. If the moose get one single glimps of the hunter, he darts off ignoring the dog. So a good stalk is a must for success

The dogs in question are usually one of five or six breeds that have its roots from the siberian laika or the age old norwegian deer hound or farm hound that has been with us since the times of the Vikings.
They are though, sturdy and usually a one man dog.

The dogs used as free dogs on the small roe deer, are short legged dogs wich move slow in the terrain, while barking and following the spoor of the roe deer. The hunter then post by tracks where he knows the deer uses.

Hunting in Norway are always on private land or on leases on government land. No stranger are allowed to hunt your lease, so problems like the one Crowrifle describes, wery seldom arises.

The only big game wich don�t require use of dogs, are raindeer ( caribou ). They are hunted only in daylight and in open high mountain terrain.

Regards Arild

Gents,

It's good to read of others experiences. I've been using a dog for deer much in the way as PeteE and Deerdogs said.

I just got sick of having well (and not so well) shot dear run off dead at last light and me writhing in mental anguish for a night before spending a morning prodding bramble bushes etc. Initialy I found it a bit louder (6 feet instead of 2 etc) but now feel lost without my GWP at heel. It's a pleasure to watch him at work and have him by my side. The added confidence I get allows me to take shots I ordinarily would not have done.

It also lets me shoot a wood in the evening which I swear is haunted, now there's another topic - weird happenings out hunting!

I must admite that I never gave the use of dogs in the feild of deer hunting much thought. This has been a great thread to keep an eye on.
I will look into the MT. laws on use of dogs to track wounded big game. I asume the use to flush or run deer wont not be leagle here, but I will check.
X-Ring

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Freedom wasn't free. Today they want our guns. What will they want tommorow?

In Australia we use dogs for every thing from ducks to deer. In the state of Victoria you can use dogs to hunt Sambar deer, but they have to be from one of the gun dog breeds or scent hounds, so sight hounds (ridgebacks ect) are out, why I don't know.
Bakes

In Ontario Canada, it is legal in most northern areas to hunt moose and deer with dogs. I have done so for many years. The bush, and swamps are so thick in this hilly terrain, that dogs, or still hunting are the only methods used by all of the organized camps in the area. One camp tried tree stands for two years, shot nothing (eight guys). Your visibility is about 90 yards max, mostly 50, and usually not in all directions.
Statistically stand hunters shoot more deer, but that does not take into consideration location. Hunters that hunt from stands are predominately farm country hunters where there are more deer per acre.

Gentlemen,
I myself don't use a dog for pursuing deer. But will use a dog to find a wounded deer. I can say for myself I have not had to use my dog for myself, but have used her for other hunters. She has found down deer,even when there was no signs of blood to the eye.It is something to see how a good dog works.I have hunted all kinds of game with all different breeds of dogs. It is truly a wonderful experience to hear a pack of dogs chase a bear or mountain lion, and believe me you have to work hard to keep up with the dogs. I hope we can keep hunting with dogs because when they take it away you know guns will be next. The breed of dog I use for tracking wounded game,all small game and big game hunting is the tenacious German Jagd terrier 17 to 24 pounds of hell fire and fury. They retrive, Bay bear, Mt. lion, boars. A real all purpose dog And if you ever see one hunt you wont beleive that this little dog can do it as good as it gets. But for blood trails they are truly amazing trackers. These dogs don't no what the word quit means.

Here in Texas, it is fairly common practice by those who have good dogs, such as a lab, to use them to locate downed deer. I am not sure whether it is legal or not. Will have to check into it. Sometimes practicalities overrule technicalities.

Hell, I was 21 years old before I found out that it was illegal to shoot rabbits at night by lights. That was the way we always hunted them, never considered that it might be illegal. Luckily, never got caught.

Hi Guys

As a Pro. Hunter in New Zealand I find a good dog is a must. NOT for hunting deer and pigs but, for finding wounded/felled game. I use a little Jack Russell bitch which is the only dog I have ever used that will bark on dead animals.(she infact will climb up onto a dead deer and bark until I get there.) That little dog has earned me around $5000.00 dollars this year so far. She will actually point a deer but if there is a pig she can smell she will point and then run behind me. For pig hunting I have 3 large dogs of dubious heritage which will bale or hold the largest of pigs until I arrive with my trusty knife for the "coup de gras" I really can't imagine hunting without a dog

Steve H