http://www.spokesman.com/stori...m-fewer-nonresident/

The Spokesman-Review
Rich Sanders

Weather, wolves, politics and the economy are slamming a quadruple whammy on the budgets of fish and game agencies in Idaho and Montana.

Nonresidents are no longer clamoring for the quota of permits the states offer for their fabled deer and elk hunts despite the standout hunting opportunities.

Nonresidents are cash cows for state budgets. Just as they boost university tuition revenues, nonresidents pay up to 15 times more than residents for the privilege to hunt elk.

While some locals welcome less competition in their favorite hunting areas, local economies are feeling the pain, too. Hardest hit are rural towns where nonresident hunters book motel rooms, eat at restaurants and support numerous other businesses with out-of-area dollars.

Losses are huge in license revenue alone.

The Idaho Fish and Game Department watched $3.5 million in license revenue vaporize last year because it could not sell all of its allotted nonresident deer and elk tags, according to Craig Wiedmeier, license division manager.

That amounts to a 4.5 percent divot in the department’s already strapped $77 million annual operating budget, which is funded almost entirely by hunting and fishing license fees.

Idaho’s sales of nonresident deer and elk tags have steadily declined each year since 2008. The trend apparently hasn’t bottomed out.

Last year, sales of nonresident Idaho deer tags were down 22 percent from 2010 and elk tag sales were down 23 percent, Wiedmeier said.

The number of tags sold this year is down about 18 percent from August 2011.

Montana is hurting, too. For the second time in 30 years, the state has a surplus of nonresident big-game combo licenses – tags that used to sell out by March 15.

At last count, Montana was still holding 795 unsold big-game combo licenses (from a 17,000 quota), 1,935 elk combo licenses and 1,921 deer combo licenses.

That amounts to a whopping $3.36 million shortfall at this point, although the state is banking on selling more tags in the next two months.

“We normally get a spike in nonresident sales in September and even October, especially from Washington state,” said Ron Aasheim, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks spokesman in Helena.

“But we’re still concerned. We’re talking about a lot of money.”

Before 2008, Idaho and Montana enjoyed high demand for their quotas of nonresident deer and elk tags. Sell-outs were the norm until the following occurred in the following two years:

• Wall Street and the mortgage banking industry tanked the nation’s economy.

• Winter weather hammered Idaho elk herds as well as Montana deer and antelope.

• Word of wolves ravaging deer and elk populations – sometimes exaggerated, sometimes not – spread through hunting communities.

• Politics compounded revenue problems by ignoring the economic climate.

Despite warnings from fish and game officials, Idaho’s legislature and Montana’s voters raised nonresident license fees, asking out-of-staters to pay more for less.

In 2009, Idaho lawmakers raised nonresident deer tags from $259 to $302 and bumped the elk tag from $373 to $417.

Fish and Game officials confirmed their assumptions about declining license sales in a 2009 survey of nonresident hunters, many of whom indicated the economy, fee increases and wolf impacts played into their decisions to forego hunting in Idaho.

Montana voters created even more economic heartburn for their wildlife agency and local economies by approving an initiative that took a swipe at guides who were tying up hunting ground.

Initiative 161 eliminated outfitter sponsored big-game licenses that guaranteed big-spending nonresidents a chance to hunt in Montana. The outfitter combo big- game tags that sold for $1,250 helped finance the state’s popular Block Management program that gives all hunters access to private land.

The Montana initiative also significantly raised prices of the nonresident big-game combination license from $643 to $944, the elk combo from $593 to $794 and the deer combo from $343 to $561.

Meanwhile, both states are trying to get out the message that they still have tremendous hunting opportunities.

For example, despite the impact of weather and wolves, Montana wildlife officials say elk populations in 70 percent of the state’s hunting units are at or above management objectives.

“In this economy, buying patterns have changed,” Idaho’s Wiedmeier said. “A lot more hunters wait to the last minute before making the decision to buy a license. It’s like they know they want to hunt in Idaho, but they want to be sure they can make it.”

The economy is affecting hunters and Game & Fish depts. nationwide and there is no easy solution.

does the term "pricing yourself out of the market" mean anything? states do seem to think the nonresident hunter is made of money. granted they do not pay taxes etc., but how much can you charge and get away with it has become a political and bureaucratic theme

Hell ,the only reason I did not apply for Montana was because after calling some of the ranches where I hunt,I was told I would be better off staying home because of winter kill.Every one knows the big Bucks are the first to die.Why would any sane person apply knowing your chances of an opportunity are pretty slim.Just sayin!!!!

I'm hunting Montana this year, and I live in Idaho. $755.00 for a nonresident Mountain Goat license. I'm not bitching about the price. Best $755.00 I've ever spent in Montana. I've shot plenty of deer and elk, but I'm still mad at those Mountain Goats.

The otherside of this coin is that for locals, fewer hunters on Public land where I like to hunt, means better more enjoyable hunting. Not everyone is upset and some even think that if Fish and Game has less money then they can't screw things up as bad.

Gas the ecomany and uncertianty is killing out of state hunting.Montana is the best hunting state for Elk And Mule Deer in lower 48 and some of the best hunting besides Alaska.I want to go back for pronghorns.I wonder if they had any of those left for nonresidents!

You guys are the non residents not me but I think the money to hunt is there. In fact I think the money is there big time. BUT
And that is a big BUT. In my opinion if we had the quality AKA size and quantity of deer and elk the non residents would not bat an eye at the price.

Unfortunately our department has managed for maximum harvest and maximum tag sales. They actually thought that non residents would come to shoot does and forky bucks at what ever price they wanted to put on the tags.

I compared hunting in Idaho like this. Think of Idaho as a costco. You pay 50 dollars to get into the door. The problem is nothing is on the shelf. So you go back and try it again. And again you find the store empty. How long before you don't go back to the store?

Ron

Idaho Ron,

I usually reserve my Idaho hunting time as fill in hunts around work and honey dos because it's handy. Put a cow elk in the freezer here and enjoy quality hunting time in States that by comparison, have their shit together. Idaho used to be great, but so did France.

Well, out in eastern MT antelope numbers are way down, 50% or even 90% in a few areas. EHD hammered the deer and antelope in lots of areas. Then there was the massive winter kill. The wolf problem is worse than it is or not as bad, but the press on the problem is very bad. Gas is expencive, food is expencive, people are worried because the economy sucks. Most guys spend a lot more on beer in a single year than on out of state tags, put it in context. We'll see, FWP can live with less, residents could actually pay more (Heaven Forbid!!!!). I'm taking the season off work, it will be great, it always is.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
does the term "pricing yourself out of the market" mean anything? states do seem to think the nonresident hunter is made of money. granted they do not pay taxes etc., but how much can you charge and get away with it has become a political and bureaucratic theme

I could not agree more.

Yes indeed the price of non resident tags is the reason I no longer hunt in Montana for deer and elk, period. Some residents just said stay home then if you don't want to foot our bills an leave all the good hunting to us...so I did knowing full well as other NRs did the same cash strapped Fish & Game depts. would soon be hard pressed to supply all those deer and elk for the paltry resident tag fees....whom got the last laugh????? Oh I still hunt deer and elk every year but now north of the border...Ha Ha Ha

I’ll be headed to Idaho for a antelope hunt in 10 days and then back in Oct for a deer hunt. Almost had to cancel the deer hunt because of the fires. We were planning on hunting 36 but its still burning there. So instead of 36 we are going north for a whitetails. Not too many other states were you can buy one tag and pretty much go all over the state.

Dear NR Hunters,
Most of you are really nice folks, some are self serving pricks who think that they are entitled to get anything they want for little or nothing "because". This type of self-centerd attitude is not limited to welfare types in major metro areas apparently. You bitch about the cost of licenses but exactly how much to you piss away on useless crap or "necessities" like over-priced wine and beer, cigars, cable TV, the NFL season package, or other "must-haves" so common to our society?

Then there are the "well it's Federal land so I should be able to hunt there for a nominal fee". (Not clearly stated what that fee should be but it will be very, very low for sure.) Fine, please designate what 40% of YOUR state you will be turning over to Federal control, removing all unautherized structures - your house to start with - and oh yeah, foot or horse access to anywhere ONLY. (This is where you get all indignate and start using words like "Socialist", "Commie", and preaching about "property rights".)

Why the hell do you want to come out here to dumb-f*** backwards Mont-tucky anyhows? We're just a bunch of inbred 'tards according to you anyway. Oh wait, WE still have a variety and abundance of game to hunt dispite our obvious inability to manage our resources "correctly". Oh please impart your wisdom oh great and powerful know-it-all. (I need not ask actually since you'll tell me how to live and manage my state anyway.) And, I dare not mention how you might have F'ed up your states game populations or that the HOLY WRIT that are your game regulations may contain some fairly idiotic ideas also.)

It's interesting that I've read that some NR hunters find residents rude and very "unhelpful", I suggest you look in a mirror some time and cuss out the jack-ass that fosters that bad attitude in us poor country folk.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
You guys are the non residents not me but I think the money to hunt is there. In fact I think the money is there big time. BUT
And that is a big BUT. In my opinion if we had the quality AKA size and quantity of deer and elk the non residents would not bat an eye at the price.

Unfortunately our department has managed for maximum harvest and maximum tag sales. They actually thought that non residents would come to shoot does and forky bucks at what ever price they wanted to put on the tags.

I compared hunting in Idaho like this. Think of Idaho as a costco. You pay 50 dollars to get into the door. The problem is nothing is on the shelf. So you go back and try it again. And again you find the store empty. How long before you don't go back to the store?

Ron

I think there is a lot of truth to what you say. In my part of the country it is not just the non... But the residents themselves who are getting fed up with the perpetual jacking up of prices and diminishing hunting prospects.

There are still some good places and there will always be some non-resident hunters willing to fork out whatever it takes. But I think that bureaucrats raiding the management coffers for their pet projects is taking a heavy toll on the quality of hunting in many places across the country.

My Sept-Oct 2012 issue of Montana Outdoors (FWP publication) came in the mail yesterday. There is an excellent article on elk hunting in the Missouri River Breaks which sheds light on the "why" of issues like the passage of I-161 and the hostility towards the outfitting "industry" on the part of many Montana residents.

I am a 100% DIY, public land, hunter. 99% of my hunting is as an NR because the military has left me in that position. I apply in some states out west where I can justify doing so. Others have OTC tags I can buy. My issue is when I have to buy a license in order to apply for a tag.

The reason I object to buying a license is because I eat close to a grand each year if I apply everywhere I want to. That is problem for me especially when I know that if I draw Uncle Sam may not let me go hunting anyhow. Now fewer states get my money because other states have priced me out of the draws.

I have to pick very carefully on a cost/benefit basis so that some day I may draw good tags while still being able to afford to hunt every year (assuming I'm home).

Thanks for your service 7mmfreak! That's one price you have to pay for being in the military in that you may not get leave to hunt, but we're all in the rest of what you described if we want to hunt some of the states that are set up that way.

Just raising the quality is not the answer. Of course the tags would be in higher demand and they could charge more, but that still would not off-set the huge reduction of permit numbers to achieve the necessary quality. It also would cut federal funding because of less licenses sold.

In most cases there will always be hunters to buy the bulk of available permits in Western states-- even with significant fee increases. But it just makes it that much further out of reach for many nonresident hunters. As my kids become hunters my out is state excursions lessen. Only so much money to spend.

I like the idea of a modest application cost-- say $40-80 per person. This makes applicants invest in the resource. It also spreads the cost over time. In Colorado NonRes pay around $40 per species to apply. Utah costs $80 or so. WY is $40-100 per species.

Dealing with retirement issues would would save far more than continually raising fees....

Wyoming will be in the same boat as Idaho and Montana in 2014 if their proposal to raise license fees for 2014 goes through. The G&F has just submitted a proposal to raise the regular NR elk license from $577 to $750, antelope from $272 to $370, and deer from $312 to $520, the latter being a whopping 67% increase. The special licenses for those draws are possibly going up by 21.5%. There are many more increases proposed and they include raising most of the resident fees as well, but not by the huge percentages that us NRs are now facing if it passes the Legislature next year.

For what it costs to buy a NR combo elk/deer tag in Montana I can pay half of my air fare to South Africa or Namibia. The costs of gas,food, lodging, tresspass fees, etc to do a DIY hunt more than covers the rest and a few trophy fees. Plus the residents welcome me with open arms as I the NON RESIDENT are a significant part of the economy.
I'll willing to bet "HunterMontana" doesn't own or operate any type of service industry in his state or his attitude would be alot different. The ignorant bastard sits on his ass as the wolves are eating the elk and deer in Montana an can't see the forest for the trees. Well at the least he admits to being a 'tard himself.

2th doc: Arrogant self serving pricks like you are why I-161 passed with no regrets from the VAST majority of Montana hunters. As far as service industry, you mean servant don't you?

Well, I was a licensed outfitter for over a decade here and saw a part time job turn into an "industry" run by lawless jackles serving pukes like you who think because they have a bit of money we should stick our noses in their asses and say please sir may I do that again.

Please go to RSA or somewhere where you can shoot a drugged lion tied to tree. I'm sure you'll enjoy your stay unless you speak a bit of Afrikaner and don't let on, in which case you'll know the contempt they hold for you...

By the way what does your crack about wolves have to do with anything? I'll bet some congresspuke from your little state votes every chance he/she/it gets to screw us on the typical eco-Nazi crap you east coast know-it-all's are such EXPERTS about. I've had good friends loose stock to wolves smart mouth. WE DIDN'T ASK FOR THE F***ING WOLVES EAST COAST "EXPERTS" LIKE YOU AND YOURS RAMED THEM DOWN OUR THROATS. Then again resident Montana hunters had been putting up with wolves stealing our game for years, we just called them "outfitter sponcered non-residents".

This arrogant eastern prick is living the life while you sit an pout over your lot in yours....oh yes your women in Mt are glad we eastern pricks migrate out there every year..that way they can have some normal children rather than the inbreeds their cousins give them.

quote:

....oh yes your women in Mt are glad we eastern pricks migrate out there every year.

That explains why you come here even though we do everything wrong. It also sheds some light on a long standing mystery the live-stock investigators have been puzzling over: Apparent mass suisides of sheep in remote areas of Montana. So far the only clues were that the sheep, rams and ewes, were sexually assualted and a vechile with PA license plates was seen in the area shortly before the sheep decided that they could not live with the shame...

those sheep are better smelling then most Montana woman even if they are all covered in shit!

quote:

Most guys spend a lot more on beer in a single year than on out of state tags, put it in context.

Well, I dunno, at $20/case that would be about 47 cases of beer for one Mt Big Game combo. Pretty serious drinking if you ask me.

The costs have gone up to the point that I do stay in my state. DIY hunt on public land, including the gas and lodging, costs about what the NR tags alone cost. I am living on the coast raising kids and making a $3,000.00 a month house payment, so I do not have much left with one income. But the real joy for me is being out and away from the right race.

I have seen NR hunters and resident locals have bad attitudes big time, but most people treat me well because I do the same. I still hope to hunt Elk and Moose as a NR again.

No doubt there are butt heads from out of state. That's not news and it isn't confined to Montana, Idaho or anywhere else.

I just came back from buying a $561 tag in Montana to take a whitetail. I didn't need the "combo", but that's what I had to buy.

I bought food, gas, lodging and butchering. I was polite to everyone and most were polite back. I met a few landowners who were not so nice even though I wasn't on their land. I was polite to them, too. I left not one piece of trash anywhere but in a trash can.

At double the price for the tag, I wouldn't have gone. I don't feel that it is a right that I have a "cheap" license, but it is an interconnected economy. If it becomes more than I can afford I simply won't/can't go.

I understand the anger that some residents feel toward non-residents - that isn't limited to hunting. However, we aren't all bad news when visiting.

Well, the only thing I can add to this conversation is that when most of the non-ranching residents of the state live in house trailers, they should consider any visitor spending a large amount of cash in that community, regardless of their reason for the visit...a blessing.

I have hunted several times in Montana and know some residents there quite well..and have never met a jackass like HunterMontana. He is definately NOT the average Montanan. Not even close!

I love hunting in Montana.I consider it a privilege to do so.I consider the land owners where I hunt to be my friends.They treat me like family and I am always glad to see them.The only problems I have had there was with an outfitter who thought he had hunting rights to anywhere he wanted.i am not happy about the raise in prices,but since this is usually my only out of State hunt yearly I will pay the money and smile!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Dear NR Hunters,
Most of you are really nice folks, some are self serving pricks who think that they are entitled to get anything they want for little or nothing "because". This type of self-centerd attitude is not limited to welfare types in major metro areas apparently. You bitch about the cost of licenses but exactly how much to you piss away on useless crap or "necessities" like over-priced wine and beer, cigars, cable TV, the NFL season package, or other "must-haves" so common to our society?

Then there are the "well it's Federal land so I should be able to hunt there for a nominal fee". (Not clearly stated what that fee should be but it will be very, very low for sure.) Fine, please designate what 40% of YOUR state you will be turning over to Federal control, removing all unautherized structures - your house to start with - and oh yeah, foot or horse access to anywhere ONLY. (This is where you get all indignate and start using words like "Socialist", "Commie", and preaching about "property rights".)

Why the hell do you want to come out here to dumb-f*** backwards Mont-tucky anyhows? We're just a bunch of inbred 'tards according to you anyway. Oh wait, WE still have a variety and abundance of game to hunt dispite our obvious inability to manage our resources "correctly". Oh please impart your wisdom oh great and powerful know-it-all. (I need not ask actually since you'll tell me how to live and manage my state anyway.) And, I dare not mention how you might have F'ed up your states game populations or that the HOLY WRIT that are your game regulations may contain some fairly idiotic ideas also.)

It's interesting that I've read that some NR hunters find residents rude and very "unhelpful", I suggest you look in a mirror some time and cuss out the jack-ass that fosters that bad attitude in us poor country folk.

sounds like someone has a bit of a complex ehh?

Alaska is better my tags are free all I pay for is a $25 hunting license... Kill a moose every year...

quote:

Dear NR Hunters,
Most of you are really nice folks, some are self serving pricks who think that they are entitled to get anything they want for little or nothing "because". This type of self-centerd attitude is not limited to welfare types in major metro areas apparently. You bitch about the cost of licenses but exactly how much to you piss away on useless crap or "necessities" like over-priced wine and beer, cigars, cable TV, the NFL season package, or other "must-haves" so common to our society?

Then there are the "well it's Federal land so I should be able to hunt there for a nominal fee". (Not clearly stated what that fee should be but it will be very, very low for sure.) Fine, please designate what 40% of YOUR state you will be turning over to Federal control, removing all unautherized structures - your house to start with - and oh yeah, foot or horse access to anywhere ONLY. (This is where you get all indignate and start using words like "Socialist", "Commie", and preaching about "property rights".)

Why the hell do you want to come out here to dumb-f*** backwards Mont-tucky anyhows? We're just a bunch of inbred 'tards according to you anyway. Oh wait, WE still have a variety and abundance of game to hunt dispite our obvious inability to manage our resources "correctly". Oh please impart your wisdom oh great and powerful know-it-all. (I need not ask actually since you'll tell me how to live and manage my state anyway.) And, I dare not mention how you might have F'ed up your states game populations or that the HOLY WRIT that are your game regulations may contain some fairly idiotic ideas also.)

It's interesting that I've read that some NR hunters find residents rude and very "unhelpful", I suggest you look in a mirror some time and cuss out the jack-ass that fosters that bad attitude in us poor country folk.

You arrogant ass! You paint with an awfully wide brush there, pal. FWIW, I have made five trips to Idaho and have taken my son once. I have bought elk tags three times, mule deer tags three times, and a pronghorn tag. My son bought (ok, I bought it for him) an elk tag. I find myself quite fortunate: I killed a bull in 1997. I have spent well over $10k that I could have spent here in TX but chose not to, and have passed on what I considered immature animals that should be allowed to grow. But as the quality of hunting and the potential to take a really quality animal continues to go down, the prices continue to go up.

Get my point? No wonder you are no longer an outfitter. You have as sour an attitude toward those that used to pay your bills as anyone I have ever seen, and for me at age 58, that is saying a lot.

I hunted eastern Montana for deer and anteloe several years in the early-70's and had a great time. Plenty of game, the owner of the ranch I hunted was great, family was nice and a couple of times when we went into the very small nearby town the folks I met were friendly.

However when the fees got to be outrageous (for me) I hunted elsewhere. Several of my friends have also started going elsewhere and made the comment to me that they felt like a cash-cow as they were paying more and more for less and less.

I've hunted Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming as a NR and except for stuff like Wyo antelope the pricing for quality opportunities is getting to the point where I'd rather hunt overseas.

I can speak mainly for Idaho since that is the state I usually try to hunt as a NR from Utah. However, Idaho is walking a fine line by raising prices, requiring a license purchase to just apply, and not having a bonus/preference points system.

I am not saying I am entirely against their system. However, they need to be careful to not price themselves out of business.

As far as non-resident hunters go, we should be grateful for them. In my home state of Utah, I have had the privelege of helping people from Texas, California, Nevada, Idaho...etc. They have all been great people.

Karma is an interesting thing. Being nice to people benefits EVERYONE, usually.

We are all hunters and should be UNITED against the anti's. Personal insults and attacks (which I can be guilty of) serve no purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
does the term "pricing yourself out of the market" mean anything? states do seem to think the nonresident hunter is made of money. granted they do not pay taxes etc., but how much can you charge and get away with it has become a political and bureaucratic theme

Exactly! I used to buy the NR combo every year when it was ~ $650......now it's over $1000! Can I still afford it? Yes. But I thought about it enough that I didn't buy one the last 2 seasons. They went crazy jacking it up that much at once, and that's reflected in the steep drop-off in purchases.

Whoever is running the show in MT made some bad decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Well, the only thing I can add to this conversation is that when most of the non-ranching residents of the state live in house trailers, they should consider any visitor spending a large amount of cash in that community, regardless of their reason for the visit...a blessing.

I have hunted several times in Montana and know some residents there quite well..and have never met a jackass like HunterMontana. He is definately NOT the average Montanan. Not even close!

Amen....I've hunted there 7 of the last 8 seasons and I love the place and people. He's mad at NR but then blames residents for turning hunting "into an "industry" run by lawless jackles".

Why so mad bro? You wanna be mad then be mad at the injuns and hutterites shooting every damn animal anytime they want......and you're paying them to do it!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
I can speak mainly for Idaho since that is the state I usually try to hunt as a NR from Utah. However, Idaho is walking a fine line by raising prices, requiring a license purchase to just apply, and not having a bonus/preference points system.

I am not saying I am entirely against their system. However, they need to be careful to not price themselves out of business.

As far as non-resident hunters go, we should be grateful for them. In my home state of Utah, I have had the privelege of helping people from Texas, California, Nevada, Idaho...etc. They have all been great people.

Karma is an interesting thing. Being nice to people benefits EVERYONE, usually.

We are all hunters and should be UNITED against the anti's. Personal insults and attacks (which I can be guilty of) serve no purpose.

I have a friend that outfits in Idaho. I've been unsuccessful in drawing tags 4 times. It's extremly frustrating that they don't have a point/prefrence system, so I stopped applying. Just wasting money on a hunting license and not getting any use out of it.

As for NR hunters. Pennsylvania is extremly affordable for out-of-state. Sometimes I think it wrong charging so little but, everyone should be able to afford to hunt without breaking the bank.

In 2012 I bought NR tags in Ohio, NJ, WV, Colo. an alien NR tags Alberta, Sask., Namibia I made all of those hunts an was successful on all but one in harvesting animals. Everyone I hunted with or met on those trips were true gentlemen some are long time friends others new found. some hunting was on private land some on Crown lands or Federal an I'm happy to do it most years. But I no longer hunt Mt. 'cause I feel like I'm taken advantage of...when Outfitter sponsored tags were the option I knew exactly what it was I was doing an though I disliked the cost I paid it, then along came the price hikes an no longer guarranteed but combo tags. For me it was buy the combo an toss the elk tag to hunt mule deer..ridiculous fee for a tag not to mention the downward trend in trophy quality and opportunities....so off to Alberta I went.