I have been looking around for a 1st deer rifle for my son. At first I was kind of leaning toward a .243 but recently I have been getting some opinions from friends that he needs a bigger gun.

So I am trowing this out there for all of the "experts" here on AR.

-We hunt northern MN so the deer are big bodied but the rages are short. Deer up to 300 lbs ranges never over 100 yards. (More like 50 or less)

-I want to get him a gun with a mild recoil so as not to scare him off at first to shooting it.

-I have a couple of extra .30/06 rifles would coming up with some type of low recoil load be an option?

Thanks for the advice...

I would buy him a 7mm-08. Great rifle to grow in to and will put just about anything on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by CHWine:
I would buy him a 7mm-08.

I agree with that.Try a model 7 Remington, short,light and easy to carry.

How old and how big is he??

For 100 yards or less I'd go with an H&R single shot youth gun in 30-30. Inexpensive, safe, accurate, easy to use and learn with. What more could you ask?

I chose the Ruger 260 Remington for my then 9 year old. It was the full size 77 Mark II and i put a Ramline Youth stock on it. It will grow with him as long as he wants to shoot it I think.

I would get him the 7mm-08 and unless he plans on hunting a lot of and elk/moose...it will be the only rifle he ever needs.

I will certainly be sufficient for the odd moose or elk with 150 grain quality bullets.

Of course I am excluding brown bear.

Nothing wrong with down loading an -06 as long as you can get the gun to fit him. If not then a 30-30 with a recoil pad and mild loads would be my suggestion. I also favor something larger than 243 for a young hunter, it has less recoil but I personally like larger, heavier bullets.

quote:

How old and how big is he??

+1

When my son was 12 and average build, I chose a Browning BLR compact in .308. But he had several years of experience shooting 22's and a 410 shotgun.

It was a great choice at the time and fit him well. Now that he's 16 it's still a great choice and fits him well.

I started with my Great Grandpa's ole 30-30.

Then, my dad bought me a 243, which I still shoot, and I've probably killed more deer with than all of my rifles combined. Took a nice Oklahoma antelope with it last year in September.

A couple of years ago, I bought myself a 7mm-08. Shot 4 deer with it last year.

Having said all that, I'd go with the 243. Put a 90-100 grain bullet thru the lungs and there isn't a deer on the continent that will survive.

Another option would be the 257 Roberts, which has put its fare share of fresh backstraps in the freeze.

Graybeard +1.
I also hunt northern MN and still take a 243 now and then. It is easy to shoot well, and that is most important. It is hard enough to get those first deer nerves under control without haveing to worry about dad's '06 knocking your teeth in. Anything in the 308 case is perfect.

I got no problem with a .243Win myself.


.

A rifle he can hold and shoot. One that fits him as well as possible is more important then caliber IMO.

I choose a Browning Mico Hunter for my son in 7mm-08. We needed a left hand and as I recall the "youth" Remingtons and Rugers obtained youth size with short 18.5 inch barrels. Browning's is 20".

There is alot of good advice on this thread.
My personal preference is for a down loaded .270 Win, but I don't see any reason to spend money on a new rifle when you have a couple of good 30.06's.

How about a moderate load behind a 125gr Nosler BT. They have a reputation for being a real deer slayer at moderate velocites. With a recoil pad and a stock cut to fit, I would expect the young 'em to make you proud!

This will let him get used to shooting a real gun. As he becomes more capable, you will not need to switch to a new rifle, just stiffen up the loads a little each year until he's shooting full power .06 loads.

.308 with light loads (smaller bullets). Then as he grows, start shooting "normal" 308 rounds.

Doesn't Hornady load some low recoil rounds?

Or 7mm-08 as others have mentioned. I see little difference in the two if you shoot light bullets with the 308. The physics are the same. After all a 7-08 is a 308 necked down.

Either a .260 or a 7-08 would work very well. As posted, get a after market youth stock that can be used now and changed out when he's bigger.
The Rem model 7s are pretty nice.

quote:

her a .260 or a 7-08 would work very well. As posted, get a after market youth stock that can be used now and changed out when he's bigger.
The Rem model 7s are pretty nice.


usta bee stillbeeman, before that Beemanbeme. Damn techies.

A Rem Mtn Rifle in .260 is almost perfect as long as the stock is not too long.

Rifle FIT is the key. My 5'4" 125lb wife shots a 270 with full power loads all day with no problems because HER rifle fits her perfectly. If I want to use her rifle for anything I need to literally put a different butt-stock on it. (It's a Ruger No.1)

If you have several 30-06 rifles and reload there is no reason to buy a new rifle. Buy a cheep stock to cut down now and save the original stock for later or cut the stock down to fit, my wife's length of pull is 11 inches (including the big-fat Kick-Eze recoil pad.) and I added a cheek piece so that her eye is in-line with the scope. (Smaller people have smaller faces and a padded cheek rest can be a great help.)

Also, the padding on the top of the stock area can reduce felt recoil to the face, a huge help in overcoming recoil shy-ness.

Reloading an 06 to train with and also to hunt with is a good idea. In spite of what you hear on some internet sites a 130gr bullet at 2700 fps will kill a deer DRT with a good heart lung shot and the recoil with well fitting 7 to 9 pound rifle will be quite managable.

hard to beat a 243 for a starter. For Deer, only ego takes you past it. You shoot any animal right behind the crease with a good expanding SP at a reasonable distance and teach the kid to just sit for a few minutes and watch the animal. Then he can go get his deer tagged about 99% of the time.

Rich

I believe Remington offers low recoil loads for 30-06. If you already have a couple and they fit him why not start there.

Thanks for all of the good advice. Gives me lots to think about.

Here in MN kids can start deer hunting on there own at 10 years old. I have a couple of years to get him ready for that but I want to make him really comfortable with his gun way before we ever go hunting. I don't know exactly what size he will be at 10 but right now he is average size or slightly below.

As was suggested earlier by Outdoor Writer, his age and size provide the answer.

I was going to say here that a relative of mine started his boys out on full power 180 gr '06 loads. I was there to provide use of a club range for it. And there were no problems whatsoever. The kids just hung on tight to that Model 70 and sent a few downrange. They got zeroed for 100 yds with minimal adult help and have already hunted. And I know of another youngster who hunted the farm with his father and took a nice 7 pt with one clean shot at over 100 yds. He used a .270 - not unlike an '06. Recoil was not an issue.

But, all these boys were 13 and 14, good athletes and in some cases had already used 12 gauges in the duck marshes.

Age 8 really has got to be too young for the Springfield 30-06 in factory loadings especially being average or slightly below in size. 10 probably will be too.

I was thinking he might have been older. But now that I understand, I too think a .243 would be perfect, unless you want to try the handloading route. I would also go for .243 over .257 or something of that nature for ease of acquiring factory ammo. As everybody here knows, many calibers and cartridges can only be found in a few stores if at all.

Btw, I have a friend who runs a deer club and his favorite hunting buddy it seems is his wife. She's not big or tall, but she's taken some nice deer. I took a wild guess as to what gun she uses - a Remington Model 700 in .243 with a 3x9 variable. It surprised us both - I guessed right.

I believe you could do a lot worse than that same gun..

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
For 100 yards or less I'd go with an H&R single shot youth gun in 30-30. Inexpensive, safe, accurate, easy to use and learn with. What more could you ask?

Great little guns, esp with the 125 and 130 gr loads. Have used one to take many kids on their 1st hunt.

I call it the "Barney Fife Rifle" , not many kids today get the inference , but they have all loved the gun.

Gun fit is more important than caliber. And a scope is MUCH easier to use than open sights.

1. Make sure that the stock and the overall length of the rifle is appropriate for him. A "full length" barrel of 22 or 24 inches usually makes a kid's rifle too muzzle heavy. Go ahead and cut that stock and cut that barrel. One day he'll outgrow it, but there will always be a younger sibling, a younger cousin, a friend's child, or, yes, a grandchild coming along later who will be a candidate to use that gun. The Remington 700 I cut down for my son over 25 years ago is still in high demand by numerous friends and family. When a good friend of mine who now has a grandson in the first grade saw it his comment was "don't you be selling that gun any time soon!"

2. Mount a fixed 3X or 4X scope as low as possible and use a stock with a comb as high as possible. A child's face is a lot smaller than yours, which makes it difficult for him to get his cheek where it belongs on the stock and still have his eye in the right place to see through the scope. Having his head bobbing around in the air because the stock is too low or the scope is too high when he is trying to aim is not conducive to accuracy and makes him vulnerable to getting a scope in the eyebrow. Use a fixed power scope because it will be cheaper, lighter in weight, and never set on the wrong power. Any deer he can't see well enough to shoot when magnified 3 or 4 times is a deer that is too far away.

3. In order for the kid to handle the gun, it needs to be both short and light. This unavoidably increases recoil. The good news is that recoil isn't really the big problem; it is muzzle blast that causes neophyte shooters to flinch and perceive heavy recoil. ALWAYS make sure he shoots with good ear protection. Otherwise he'll think that a .222 kicks like a mule (as well as suffer premature hearing loss).

4. Get him a good, dependable bolt action rifle. You wouldn't hunt with a friggin' converted shotgun made out of a barn door hinge, would you? Neither should he. 4A. Don't get a caliber (like a .270 or .30-06) that requires a full length rather than short action. It will be heavier, the bolt throw will be longer, and the gun will be longer and more muzzle heavy.

5. There is absolutely no difference in the time to onset of mortality of a deer properly hit with a .243 as compared to one similarly hit with a larger caliber. And a poor hit will not result in timely mortality no matter how potent the caliber. All that getting him a larger caliber will accomplish is to make recoil more challenging and shot placement more difficult.

I've worked with a lot of kids in teaching them to shoot "serious" guns. Most recently, my grandson took his first TWO bucks last fall at age 7, each with a single shot from his properly-fitting scoped rifle. He used the same rifle this summer to shoot eight prairie dogs at distances up to 200 yards. And he used a properly cut-down 28 gauge over/under to take a genuine first barrel-second barrel double on fast flying doves a week ago. He's neither large for his age nor athletically gifted; he's just had common sense instruction shooting guns that fit his small frame -- and a healthy desire to be "just like dad".

I've killed a pile of Northern MN deer with a .243, including a couple of bucks that were in the 225 pound range. One shot each. I do strongly recommend using 85 grain Barnes TSX bullets. You will get a blood trail with them. Cup and core, as well as Partition bullets tended to not leave exit wounds. They killed deer really well, you just didn't get a blood trail.

That being said, for a 10 year old hunting in MN, I think the idea of a cut down NEF Handi-Rifle in 30/30 or .44 Mag would be the ideal. Make him focus on one shot. You can easily see if it's on safety or not, and you don't have feel bad about cutting down to really get it to fit properly.

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
For 100 yards or less I'd go with an H&R single shot youth gun in 30-30. Inexpensive, safe, accurate, easy to use and learn with. What more could you ask?

Couldn't agree more. That or a Marlin 30-30.....with Barney Fife's one bullet in the top pocket.

I also have a .243 that I killed a pile o' deer with my first few years out.

I started all of mine with a Rugar #1 in 270. I shortened the stock a few inches and then added a thicker recoil pad as they grew. Then reverted back for tne next one.

Now that mine are grown I've lent it or taken others out with it so it had been the 1st deer rifle for more than 30 kids.

1 shot easy load and unload top tang safety short action makes the overall rifle a kid sized carbine.

I down load 120 grn Sierra Game Kings for superb 150 yard accuracy and extremely low recoil. This combo has accounted for at least 50 deer by kids 9-14 and most all were quick and effecient 1 shot kills.

Best regards
Mike Ohlmann
Mike's Custom Taxidermy Inc.
4102 Cane Run Rd.
Louisville KY 40216
502-448-1309
Mike@mikescustomtaxidermy.com

If he is big enough to handle and shoot one of your 30/06 rifles then just get some of Remingtons Managed Recoil loads, or some of Federals Low Recoil loads.

The Remington loads have a 125gr bullet and the Federals have a 170gr bullet.

Between my wife, my nephew and myself we have killed several deer and pigs with them. They kill great.

If he cannot handle the size of your 30/06, then get him a youth model Remington Mod 7 in 308, and use the same ammo.

When he gets bigger get a new stock for the Mod 7.

quote:

Originally posted by MN Hunter:
Thanks for all of the good advice. Gives me lots to think about.

Here in MN kids can start deer hunting on there own at 10 years old. I have a couple of years to get him ready for that but I want to make him really comfortable with his gun way before we ever go hunting. I don't know exactly what size he will be at 10 but right now he is average size or slightly below.

I've been through this with my own son as well as with many customers. My son is now 14, and we've moved up to full factory loads for a 7mm-08. However, when he was 10-13, he shot a Tikka .30-06 with the Federal 170gr reduced recoil ammo. It shoot really well out to 100 yards, and with the 170gr bullet packs some real punch on whitetail. We also tried the Remington 125gr reduced recoil stuff, but 125gr at reduced velocity is a waste. Hope this helps. Mike

Like many posters here I too have been thru this before with one son, I am now starting at it again with my 7 year old.
First son was recoil sensitive even with a .243 at 9 years old so I reduced those loads a bit. As he got bigger and old enough to hunt game in Colorado I stepped him up to a .284 Win Ruger M77 and reduced loads of 130 grain Speer bullets. The 130 grain at 2500 fps had no trouble killing his first Muley at 180 yards and his first elk was also dispatched with a couple shots. He has since moved up to full power loads and at 16 he now shoots .375's and .458's.
My youngest son I started off with a sporterized 6.5 Swede and cut the stock down and reduced the loads. He is 7 and can stand about 8-10 shots per session.
I think the method of working them up to full power loads is effective and helps avoid flinching and jerking when the shot counts. I'd much rather have them shoot underpower loads accurately than shoot full power stuff into the dirt behind the animal!
Good luck with yours and be patient, remember the kid is a fraction of your size and doesn't have the recoil hardened experience that you do, go easy on him.

.357, .44, .250 savage, .257 Roberts, .260, 7.62x39, 30-30 are all solid choices. You don't need 250+yrd capability with a young shooter imo.

My daughter will hunt her first deer with either my .44 ruger semi auto, or a .257 Roberts loaded with 117grn @ 2600fps. Creampuff loads that will fully penetrait deer.

I started my daughters on a Browning Micro-Medallion in 308 with slightly reduced loads and the other on my light 6.5-284. Both handled them well and shoot well with them now with full power loads. If I was to start over I would find a Micro-hunter in 260, but them I love the .264 based cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
How old and how big is he??

+2
Can't say much without knowing the answer to the above..

This is an article I wrote a long time ago. To put a date stamp on, consider that my son Keith is now 48.

START 'EM EARLY AND RIGHT

If you're a hunter and the father of a youngster, one day you might hear, "Daddy, can I go hunting with you?" Perhaps you already have? In my case, I heard it almost 20 years ago when my two sons felt their shooting competence was ready for the supreme test.

Once a youngster asks the question, two special things might occur. You could gain a life-long hunting partner, and you could become the logical instructor. At least that's what happened to me.

I found the lessons no different from raising the boys as babies. They looked up to me as both a parent and a teacher who would guide them in their endeavor. Now in their mid-twenties, both of my sons regularly hunt with me.

Many children develop an early desire to hunt. Sometimes, though, their desire far outweighs their good judgment. This imbalance could be disastrous when it involves handling firearms on their own.

When my oldest son was about five years old, I bought him a used .22 rifle. I shortened the stock to fit him, and Keith quickly realized the clip-fed, bolt-action was really HIS, rather than one of mine he was only using. Still, the gun remained under my control at all times. I loaded it, pushed the safety on or off and kept one hand on it even when Keith was shooting it. He merely placed his tiny hands on the rifle, aimed and pulled the trigger. While all this was going on, I always explained what I was doing and why.

Long before he could legally hunt big game, Keith constantly asked to go with me on deer and javelina hunts. I simply told him to be patient; his time would come. At the same time, though, I started his in-the-field training on dove and quail hunts. He never carried a shotgun, but I let him shoot my Browning 20 gauge a few times. For an impatient eight-year-old, these day-long trips provided as many thrills as any deer hunt.

In some instances the responsibility of training a youngster will fall to a person other than a parent. When a father has little or no hunting experience, a relative or a good friend often takes over.

My father rarely hunted, so the task of teaching me fell to my grandfather. I spent a lot of time with my grandfather when I was growing up, but my first outing into the brightly-hued woods didn't occur until I was 16. A few years later, Pop moved to Arizona. My wife and I followed. He was already in his 70s, and I was 20. This was actually when my hunting education really started.

Pop taught me many things my urban upbringing had precluded. Among other things, he showed me the fundamentals of sharpening a knife, plucking a bird and field-dressing a deer. Naturally, he taught me how to handle firearms properly and stressed the importance of safety. I retained most everything he told me, including the philosophical things --- matters dealing with the moral and ethical aspects of hunting. He always told me to obey the game laws and do only what I felt was right. If a doubt existed, then don't do it.

As soon as my boys began hunting, Pop shared in teaching them, too. Keith and Scott idolized their "Papa" and listened to his instructions and admonishments intently. If they did something wrong, he corrected them with his favorite reprimand --- "Shame on you."

Of course, any adult who teaches a youngster how to shoot and hunt should have some competence to do so, especially when firearms safety is the subject. The adult also must practice what he preaches.

I went javelina hunting with a friend and his 14-year-old son a while back. Loaded rifles in vehicles, plinking around camp and muzzles pointed at someone's ribs kept me on constant alert. Every time I heard a metallic click, I winced, nervously waiting for the big bang. The boy showed little regard for firearms and even less for those around him. His dad had been teaching him how to shoot for many years before the hunt took place. The father's habits weren't much better, however, and he did nothing to correct his son. Feeling out of place, I didn't say anything either, but since then I gracefully have declined other invitations from them.

So if you think your child's gun-handling instruction needs a boost that you are incapable of providing, seek out more competent persons for the chore. I recommend the Arizona Game and Fish Department's Hunter Education courses. The classes are available throughout the state and provide a good basic knowledge of firearms, safety and other hunting related topics. The course is a perfect refresher for adults, as well.

Perhaps the most frequently asked question is, "When do I start?" Well, a concrete answer is impossible. There's more to it then chronological age, which is usually the poorest gauge. Some 10-year-olds exhibit more maturity than some 15-year-olds. The key is readiness --- both mental and physical. A child should be able to understand and appreciate what's going on. Starting him too early is a disservice that occasionally leads to early failure.

You usually can spot the readiness by watching a child's actions in everyday life. A boy who still tries to fit a quart of milk into an eight-ounce glass, or one who swings his croquet mallet at his friend's head because the friend won the game should not handle a gun. Even though the proverbial cliché, "Kids will be kids," is true, letting an immature child handle a firearm on his own could prove disastrous.

The evaluation of a youngster's maturity should be neither too critical nor too protective. Instead, it should be objective and realistic. Does he take care of his belongings and respect the property of others? Does he handle chores with regularity and obey house rules? Does he control his emotions well and make good decisions most of the time?

As a rule, judging physical capabilities is a bit easier. If hand-eye coordination is lacking, a young shooter might get discouraged in short order when he constantly misses the target. If he has a hard time keeping both feet under him, he probably would have a difficult time in the field, too.

Once little Johnny shows a level of mental and physical maturity that you trust, it's time for the training to begin. The training can take many forms. Some parents teach best by example. Others are better at telling. Some use props and films.

Regardless of how it's done, patience is a must. Making a boy feel inadequate if he fails at something the first few times can be damaging. You should also avoid making everything into a competition. The parent who says, "Well, let's see who can hit the most cans," and then proceeds to out shoot his kid has gained nothing. In contrast, challenging the youngster to beat his previous score is a healthier competition because it provides encouragement for HIS improvement.

As I mentioned earlier, the gun I chose for Keith’s training was a .22 bolt-action rifle. Most instructors would agree it is an appropriate firearm for the beginner. You can usually find an inexpensive used one or a new rifle for under $100. Although the rifle I bought had a detachable clip, I normally left it out and loaded one round at a time. Hoping the repetitions would help, I eventually allowed Keith to put the safety on after each shot, load the gun and push the safety off again by himself. This single-shot training carried over to his first shotgun, too.

Many parents believe a .410, because of its light recoil, is the ideal first shotgun for a young shooter. In contrast, I think this is a bad move. While the .410 does have less recoil, watching every dove fly off with nary a ruffled feather can be very discouraging to a beginner. In fact, it can even humble an experienced shooter. I consider myself a fair shot with a shotgun, but my hit-to-miss ratio suffers drastically when I shoot a .410. Another disadvantage of the .410 is the price and availability of shells. They are rarely on sale, and few stores stock them in quantity. Taking this into consideration, I gave Keith a Savage single-shot 20-gauge for his tenth birthday.

Moving up to a big-game rifle presents even more problems. Here again, too many parents harbor an erroneous belief that a 30/30 lever action carbine is the only gun for the beginning hunter. Yet these guns, traditionally typified by the Winchester Model 94 or Marlin 336, are heavy and pack a healthy recoil. And I know this from experience; my first centerfire rifle was a 30/30 Marlin 336 Texan. With no recoil pad, it wasn't fun to shoot a bunch of rounds from a bench.

A far better choice is one of the lighter calibers like the .243, 6mm,.300 Savage or other light-recoiling cartridges. They will work quite well for most game animals, though perhaps not ideally for the larger ones.

I was lucky enough to find a .300 Savage Model 99 lever action with a cut-down stock and recoil pad in a pawn shop. The rifle fit Keith perfectly. After a few trips to the range, he was shooting decent groups out to 150 yards. Knowing he was ready, I sent in our permit applications for deer and antelope, and we drew both.

When September rolled around, we headed to Chino Valley, north of Prescott. We set up our spotting scope the next morning, found a respectable buck and stalked to a small knoll about 250 yards away. Because of the flat, open terrain in front of us, getting closer was impossible. The range was too far for the Savage.

"We'll either have to wait to see if they move closer, or you'll have to use my rifle," I whispered.

Keith looked somewhat disappointed, but then he said, "I'll use yours."

I had brought my Winchester .264 magnum. Keith had never fired anything that powerful.

"Are you sure?" I asked.

When he nodded, I quickly grabbed my daypack and placed it in front of him so he could rest the forearm on it. I cranked the scope to nine-power and handed the Model 70 to him. A minute later, the .264 went off, shattering the early morning stillness. The buck dropped without taking a step.

Naturally, I expected a jubilant reaction typical of an 11-year-old who had just made a one-shot kill on his first big-game animal.

Instead, he turned to me and said, "That rifle didn't kick as much as I thought it would!"

Keith took a while before he realized what he had done. On the other hand, his feat filled me with a sense of pride almost immediately. That's how it had been all along, though. When he hit his first can with the .22 or his first dove with the 20-gauge, I felt a sense of fulfillment equal to the day he came home with his first report card full of "A"s. I was both a proud father and a teacher and felt privileged to pass on the tradition my grandfather had passed to me.


----- 30 -----

This post has really gotten me thinking and I have come up with an unconventional approach to this problem.

What are some things that would be desirable?

Stock that would fit a child but could be adjusted for years as the child continued to grow:
How about Length of Pull that could be adjusted from 10 3/8" to 14 1/2"?

Short and easy to handle:
What about an overall length of 31.5" to 35.6" depending on how long the LOP is adjusted for?

Equally suitable for iron sights and optics:
Answer is to have removable sights and removable scope so either or both could be used.

Fires a cartridge suitable for deer hunting:
What about 85gr at 3030fps, 110gr at 2575fps, and over 1300ft lbs of energy at 200 yards?

Has little recoil:
What about a rifle with almost no felt recoil?

Lightweight:
Just under 7 pounds.

Durable enough to withstand the bangs, drops, scratches, and scrapes a child might subject it to:
How about a level of durability suitable for the military (MILSPEC)?

So what is it? An AR-15 based carbine, with a five round magazine, chambered for 6.8SPC.

The perfect kid's gun.

quote:

So what is it? An AR-15 based carbine, with a five round magazine, chambered for 6.8SPC.

The perfect kid's gun.

I Plan to get one for Daughters.

Styer Prohunter in a 308,7/08 or 6.5x55

Ed

Outdoor writer hit on something that was on my mind about selecting a cartridge and rifle for a young hunter. When you take your kid to buy a new baseball or softball glove, you let him or her try different gloves. Same thing with athletic shoes. You don't say, "here you go, take this".

Same thing with rifles. Let him try as many as possible. Check with your friends and hunting partners to see if they have something appropriate for him to try. By letting him try different firearms and allowing him to be in on the selection process, will in my opinion go a long way in getting the rifle he'll be confident in.

Joe A.

quote:

So what is it? An AR-15 based carbine, with a five round magazine, chambered for 6.8SPC.

The perfect kid's gun.

Grenadier;

I can agree that the AR platform is a great option............ but I doubt that there will ever an acceptable designation of "a or the perfect gun"! Or at least I hope not... as it would surely take the sport out of gun conversations!

But the so called "black guns" are continuing to gain momentum in the hunting theater and I think they have a lot to offer especially in the area of versatility!

Best regards
Mike Ohlmann
Mike's Custom Taxidermy Inc.
4102 Cane Run Rd.
Louisville KY 40216
502-448-1309
Mike@mikescustomtaxidermy.com

You don't say how big the boy is (in terms of weight)Having delivered that obligatory criticism - I will say that what stonecreek posted should be read -over and over again - because I think it is perfect. Each point he makes is important. (I was particularly struck by his reference to muzzle blast - I started to shoot at age 7 (22,Savage Model 3, a single shot -because my father was a resurrected old Tennessean who believed in the value of the first shot)- and muzzle blast bothered me in all my subsequent 60 or so shooting days -recoil never did -but it is important for the boy to find out what bothers him -if anything -and to adjust accordingly.

My suggestion? - If it's for white tails in close woods -why not the 30-30? (and no rear end shots) The 35 Remington is also fine -and again, no rear end shots (although a little better IMHO than the 30-30. The '06 will drive up to the "boiler room" on a rear end shot -and if properly stock fitted (no old Springfield '03s) I don't see why a 14 year old couldn't handle using 180 gr. loads. (No hard driving up against his cheek bone on recoil if fitted right) In any event, I hope you'll post pictures of the first buck he drops) (he will peobably drop his first deer with the rifle he picked out and got used to. Remember the old Western frontier expression (about gambling turkey shoots -"Beware of the man with one gun".Being pushy, I'll urge you to give him his own way (if it's not too obviously wrong)