I swear, the managment in this state disgusts me. Changes for 2005 include an increased number of limited entry bull Elk permits and the cost of the resident tags have increased from $180.00 to $280.00.

Could it be any clearer what that is all about?


Decisions like that are what has ruined the Mule deer herd here. Now they are going to do it to Elk too. Greedy bastards..

Quickly becoming a rich man's sport.

Add to those changes the SFW demand for 25% of all tags to give away at conventions.

quote:

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Originally posted by coues:
Add to those changes the SFW demand for 25% of all tags to give away at conventions.

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SAY WHAT???

Your not kidding they pretty much turned the LE elk hunting in this state inside out. I am not sure how I like what they did, Utah has been praised as having the best elk hunting anywhere, why fix it if it aint broke. I guess the big compaint was noone was drawing tags, I know someone with 13 points ie max. There is only about 500 people in the whole state with that many and he hasn't drawn a tag. I do agree that too many bulls are dying of old age so more tags needed to be issued.

Essentailly what they did was move 30% of the any weapon tags to new november hunts out of the rut. The idea is to issue more tags cause of the lower success rates in the november hunts. So noone has a clue how many tags will be issued for any of the hunts or how attractive the november hunts will be to people. they also lowered the age class in some units from 6-7yrs down to 4-5yrs. I myself am of the opinion that I would rather have a one time slam dunk chance at a big one instead of more chance at a rag horn bull. I will agree that most people don't care if they shoot a 380 bull or a 320 bull as long as its a 6 point. One idea that was proposed but I don't think adopted was only allow spike hunting ever other year in the LE units so more bulls mature I like this idea actually.

As for the price increase I don't know where that came from, they are issuing more tags so why raise the price. I think utah is for the most part doing a decent job. The one thing that burns me is this states overwelming preference for bow hunting, pretty soon you will not need your rifle or your ML cause archery will be the only hunts

Check out these threads.


http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/4453.html

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/4355.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
...and the cost of the resident tags have increased from $180.00 to $280.00.

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Take a look at the nonresident prices.

Yeah, I agree, we should pay more. It's your state, and I'm a visitor. I don't have a problem with that. (I'm not even gonna get started on the whole USO thing...). But DAMN, it's getting pricey.

This will be my fifth year applying (both deer and elk); "maybe" I'll get lucky & finally draw one...

quote:

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Originally posted by coues:
Check out these threads.


http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/4453.html

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/4355.html

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Unbelievable. The good ol boy's network is alive and well in Utah.

Great, another Utah WHINER thread. People post these topics without really knowing or EDUCATING THEMSELVES on the issue. So here are some facts for the Utah Whiners:

1- Some of Utah's LTD Entry elk units have bull to cow ratios of 1.5 to 1. Yes, more bulls then cows. Many units have bull cow ratios of 1 or 2 to 1. Now it shouldn't even take a High School education to realize that those kind of ratios are not healthy for the herd, nor does it mean that Sportsman are given enough opportunity.

2- Why are there so many bulls?? Well, If a unit is managed for 7-8 year old bulls then that means the average age of the Harvested elk should fall in these Ages. BUT in reality the following is what has been taking place. Joe Hunter draws his LTD ELK tag and goes to shoot his bull. On the side hill stands a Nice, heavy 5x6 that is 11 years old and scores 325 B&C. Next to that bull is a 7x7 with Long tines which is 6 years old and scores 380. Which bull does the hunter shoot? YES, the young bull with great genetics. What does that do to the AVERAGE AGE of harvested bulls?? It lowers the average, which in turn means LESS tags for the next season. All the while that 11 year old bull gets older and never shot.

3- In previous years the DWR had 3 age classes in which they managed Units. 3-4 years old, 5-6, and 7-8. Only rifle harvest data was used for average age. Now the units will be managed for 3-4, 4-5, and 6-7. Also, the age of Primative weapon harvest will be included which should lower the harvest avg age, but not necessarily the ACTUAL average Age.

4- I get a kick out of those who now claim there will only be RagHorn bulls to shoot. HAHAHA thanks for the laugh. A 4-5 year old bull will be a mid 280-330 bull, but that is only the AVG age. Guys will still kill 360+ bulls on every unit, the guys who actually hunt.

5- While the Avg hunter draws his $280 Resident tag for an essentially Once in a Lifetime hunt, He will be calling his friends on his Cell, driving to the hunt in his $xxxxx pickup, using his $500-$1000 rifle, plus his $xxx optics, buying $2.00 gal fuel (if he is Lucky), Spending $xxx on scouting, then paying a decent taxidermist $700+ for a mount and $150 to have it cut and wrapped, etc. IF $280 is too much for you to pay for the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a Trophy Bull elk then you have no ambition or drive to attain those priorities in your life.

6- Finally I will add that the Utah Division of Wildlife DID NOT RAISE THE FEES!! The Utah Legislature RAISED the fees WITHOUT input from the DWR. IN FACT, the DWR did not even care to have a premium $500 Resident elk tag, but they were mandated to do so by the Legislature.

Cold Bore- Aren't you from WY or MT?? You want to talk about sticker shock then look at WY $900 for a gen elk tag which gives a guy a 30-40% success rate on average size elk. Utah is a bargain for the essential Once In A Lifetime chance to hunt it.

By the Way, I sat in The Utah Elk Committee this past year as these issues were hashed out by NonDWR reps.

I also wanted to reply to the Conservation Tags banter. I want everyone to know that this was not just a SWF idea, but as was pointed out on the link, this was an idea from every major Conservation Group in the country. I do think that it is a rip, not only for the nonres, but also for the avg Joe resident. These groups do a lot of good, but 13%+ of Utah's tags shouldn't be taken.

MC isn't a 3-4 yr old bull likely a rag horn?? I do agree with most of your logic on the bull #'s what I have been hearing from everyone is that big bulls are dying of old age. ie more permits need to be issued. In your situation what do you expect a hunter to do shoot the 325 bull or shoot the 380 bull, the hunt is essiantially once in a lifetime I by god am shooting the 380 bull!!!!

Some things That the SFW recommended I didn't like at all. 1) prepaying the entire fee for the hunt then the DWR would refund you. Doesn't this make more work and hassle for everyone including the DWR.

2) only letting you put in for LE hunts or once in a lifetime hunts, so I guess essiantially elk would be once in a lifetime and moose and others would be never in a lifetime.

MC what is your feeling on moving 30% of the hunts to november??

Cummins- I will do my best answer a your questions.

The point I was making with the 380 vs 325 bull is that the YOUNG 380 bull gets shot and the old 325 bull never does. This squews the data to show the average age of bulls taken to be less than the Harvest Objective, which in turn means the DWR issues less tags. All the while the ACTUAL age of bulls on the high end (7-8yr) units gets older. Of course I would shoot the 380, but there are plenty of guys out there who would love to shoot the 11 yr old 325 bull, but can't draw the tag.

First off SFW reccomended some ideas, no specific SFW idea was put in the plan.

Second the "1 animal" application came as an idea from a DWR employee. It allowed for an applicant to apply for 1 species and purchase a point for 1 species, thus a person would still build Deer or elk or Antelope points and 1 OIL species points each year. This idea was rejected and is not part of Utah's system.

Many sportsmen would love to see a Pay to Play system, much like the one that was present prior to this current Credit Card system. The DWR did not reccomend this idea. I would support this idea. If you draw you have to pay anyway and it would weed out many of the guys who put grandma in for the draw for $5 and then fill her tag. Also the DWR looses thousands of dollars each year due to applicants not paying for drawn tags.

The 3-4 to year old units remain at the same age classification as they managed for before. There is no difference there. The 5-6 year old units are now 4-5 so that is a "New" change. I know of a 400"+ bull which came off a 3-4 unit. I have always thought a Raghorn bull was a 2 year old 4-5 point. A 3 year old bull could easily be a 250"-300" six point. Again there was no change made to the 3-4 year old units which have been in place in Utah for 10+ years.

As for the Nov hunts, I think that their success rate won't change much from the rut hunt. I was against the idea, but we'll see how it plays out. I imagine that many hunters will see broken racks and they may harvest younger bulls, but it all remains to be seen.

All the changes were made to help ease the pressure in the Draw Odds. The Elk Plan was redesigned to do the following: INCREASE OPPORTUNITY WITHOUT GREATLY REDUCING QUALITY. I believe the plan just may accomplish that.

I don't know if I helped answer your questions. These internet forums are a hard place to get one's point across exactly how the point was meant.

Now Let's Hunt Some Elk!

You Stated "Also the DWR looses thousands of dollars each year due to applicants not paying for drawn tags".

Could you explain this? Dont the tags that cant get cleared(debit/credit card) or payed for go to the next guy in line? They keep the application fee dont they? Arent left over tags sold in another drawing/way?

Just curious how any mony can be lost?

Coues

Coues- That is what I always thought, but I have been told by the man who is in charge of Utah's draw that they run some cards through multiple times, which costs the DWR each time they must run a credit card number (I believe that the Nevada Application Service has something to do with this charge). And then the DWR notifies the successful applicant that his card did not go through and they see if the applicant has another card. This also takes time and man hours. (I believe that this is required through some state policy dealing with all State Departments.?.) Anyway, The conversation I had on this topic was last Aug or Sept so I am trying to give what I remember. I am sure I forgot some important point and I can't remember the exact amount but I believe the cost was $4,000-5,000.

I do remember that the the DWR pays over $300,000 to Credit Card companies for the Draw. I beleive most Credit Card companies charged around 2.6% for each purchase (tag). The DWR could save that money if people paid up front, but the State of Utah wants to be Technologially based and use the internet to show they are. They could use Debit Cards to accomplish this, but they won't.

MC thanks for shedding some light on this, I think it is easy for people to get all caught up in a tissy without knowing the whole story

quote:

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Originally posted by MC:
Great, another Utah WHINER thread. People post these topics without really knowing or EDUCATING THEMSELVES on the issue. So here are some facts for the Utah Whiners:

1- Some of Utah's LTD Entry elk units have bull to cow ratios of 1.5 to 1. Yes, more bulls then cows. Many units have bull cow ratios of 1 or 2 to 1. Now it shouldn't even take a High School education to realize that those kind of ratios are not healthy for the herd, nor does it mean that Sportsman are given enough opportunity.

2- Why are there so many bulls?? Well, If a unit is managed for 7-8 year old bulls then that means the average age of the Harvested elk should fall in these Ages. BUT in reality the following is what has been taking place. Joe Hunter draws his LTD ELK tag and goes to shoot his bull. On the side hill stands a Nice, heavy 5x6 that is 11 years old and scores 325 B&C. Next to that bull is a 7x7 with Long tines which is 6 years old and scores 380. Which bull does the hunter shoot? YES, the young bull with great genetics. What does that do to the AVERAGE AGE of harvested bulls?? It lowers the average, which in turn means LESS tags for the next season. All the while that 11 year old bull gets older and never shot.

3- In previous years the DWR had 3 age classes in which they managed Units. 3-4 years old, 5-6, and 7-8. Only rifle harvest data was used for average age. Now the units will be managed for 3-4, 4-5, and 6-7. Also, the age of Primative weapon harvest will be included which should lower the harvest avg age, but not necessarily the ACTUAL average Age.

4- I get a kick out of those who now claim there will only be RagHorn bulls to shoot. HAHAHA thanks for the laugh. A 4-5 year old bull will be a mid 280-330 bull, but that is only the AVG age. Guys will still kill 360+ bulls on every unit, the guys who actually hunt.

5- While the Avg hunter draws his $280 Resident tag for an essentially Once in a Lifetime hunt, He will be calling his friends on his Cell, driving to the hunt in his $xxxxx pickup, using his $500-$1000 rifle, plus his $xxx optics, buying $2.00 gal fuel (if he is Lucky), Spending $xxx on scouting, then paying a decent taxidermist $700+ for a mount and $150 to have it cut and wrapped, etc. IF $280 is too much for you to pay for the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a Trophy Bull elk then you have no ambition or drive to attain those priorities in your life.

6- Finally I will add that the Utah Division of Wildlife DID NOT RAISE THE FEES!! The Utah Legislature RAISED the fees WITHOUT input from the DWR. IN FACT, the DWR did not even care to have a premium $500 Resident elk tag, but they were mandated to do so by the Legislature.

Cold Bore- Aren't you from WY or MT?? You want to talk about sticker shock then look at WY $900 for a gen elk tag which gives a guy a 30-40% success rate on average size elk. Utah is a bargain for the essential Once In A Lifetime chance to hunt it.

By the Way, I sat in The Utah Elk Committee this past year as these issues were hashed out by NonDWR reps.

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Great,

Another brainwashed SFW chronie.

Bear this in mind. What you state as the "average hunter" is only YOUR conceptulization of an average hunter and not everyone falls under your criteria. In fact, thousands of people who love to hunt are being driven away from the sport because of Utahs greed motivated managment policies.


Secondly, if the Bull to cow ratio is higher than it needs to be then why do the number of viable LE areas outnumber the viable general season areas by a large margin, and dont tell me that THIS is a legeslative decision. And dont tell me about all of the general season areas where there are no bulls or that consist largly of private property.

The only truly viable General season area is the Uintahs and with this POS proposal it is going to see more pressure than ever. (see; depleted herd)

But people like you dont care about any of this, you dismiss it as "whining" and are fine with all of it as long as you get your chance at a monster bull that will look so good on the wall along with your powerstroke diesel and fifth wheel trailer in the driveway.

Ive watched this shit go on here for over thirty years and it is consistant as the day is long.

Where are your comparisons with Idaho and montana where the Elk habitat is actually more comparable? Where are your comparisons to these states in terms of deer herds on general season areas.

You dont want to disguss general season areas though, do you? Just like the rest of the Utah SFW.

If the Utah legislature is mucking up the works for the entire state then maybe the SFW and DWR should focus on that instead of being so B&C trophy oriented.

Personaly, I think they are all holding hands and happy as pigs in shit.

WesternHunter-
I did not realize that you were talking about Utah General Season hunts. Ok lets look at them. You started this post by talking about the LTD prices going up and that the elk herd will go to crap. Now you want to change the topic and talk about the General season herds.

OK, let's do that. Changes to Utah's GENERAL ELK seasons for 2005 include the following:

-Raising the prices of Gen Tags by $5. From $60 to $65.

- Lowering the number of General Spike tags from 19,000 to 11,000. This will allow for the current +- 11,000 Spike hunters to still hunt spikes, but will also protect the remaining tags (7,000+ were never sold) to use as recruitment for LTD Areas.

-Open Bull units remain with their previous cap of 14,300 tags.

- Raising the bull to cow ratio on OPEN BULL units from 8 per 100 to 15 per 100 post rut. Yes the Elk Committee raised the accpetable ratio, which really didn't do much BECAUSE ALL units EXCEED that old number. The Kamas Any Bull unit has a 16-19 per 100 ratio and most other units run into the 30s per 100 cows. Yes, even the Unitas units have POST season bull cow ratios over 30.

- The statwide objective for elk was raised by 5,000 with a reccommendation of raising it an additional 10,000 to 85,000 head. This needs the Forest Service, BLM, and Cattleman's Association to sign off on it.

Now to your fits- I really don't see how "the Uintahs and with this POS proposal it is going to see more pressure than ever. (see; depleted herd)". Same number of tags and a higher bull cow objective, which is being met. There is no real logic in that statement.

We do agree that B&C score shouldn't be the motivator for the state wildlife. That is why they are trying to issue more tags, lower age objectives, and increase the herd size. But didn't you just claim "Decisions like that are what has ruined the Mule deer herd here. Now they are going to do it to Elk too. Greedy bastards.. ". So you are all about more opportunity to hunt these elk, but by doing so the DWR will ruin the herds?? I am confused.

Finally, I would like to address your nice jab at me being a SFW chronie. YES, I do admit I am a member of SFW. I pay $25 a year to their organization. That is as far as it goes. I believe they do mostly good, but some bad for Utah's wildlife. I am not a brainwashed person. I discussed issues with Don Peay a few nights ago until 11:00pm. I told him he was wrong on certain issues and I told him my opinion. He didn't like to hear what I told him on certain issues, but too bad. There isn't anyone in this world who is perfect, but at least some of us are trying to make a difference.

Western- Have you ever gone to a RAC or Wildlife Board Meeting, stood up and expressed what you believe in? 2,310 posts on an internet forum does not count or help the wildlife of the State of Utah.

By the way, I drive a Dodge gas truck, sleep in a Coleman 2 man tent, and YES I am enjoying the 330 class 6 point bull I shot last Fall with my muzzleloader on a Utah LTD ML Tag. I do think I enjoy the public land 320 6 point I shot on the Utah General Season Rifle hunt 3 years ago almost as much. (These smiley faces are an interesting idea)

First of all you can go on quoting F&G's statistics until you are blue in the face, they are meaningless guessing games and using them as a basis for making decisions is a proven recipie for failure.

They are made by the same folks who have been telling us hunters on the 6:00 news every fall what a great hunt to expect this year while those of us in the field know the reality is quite different. A steady decline.

Now if they actualy made some statistics based on EXACTLY what kind of hunters success AND FAILURES come from every area of the state then we would know something. The only way to do that is a mandatory hunt report, which I see they are starting to employ small scale for certian hunts.

I started the thread stating my dissapointment in managment policies, that hasnt changed. Nothing has changed, simply stated, the costs continue to go through the roof while the animals on public grounds are neglected.

I have articles dating as far back as the early 70's written by PH's who had hunted all of the surrounding states and reckognized that early on Utahs "questionable" managment practices.

The correlation between the changes, and the quality of hunting in the uintahs are not that difficult to fathom. The increase in the cost of the LE tags is going to be viewd as a prohibitive expenditure by many and therefore the focus on Elk hunting in the Uintahs is going to intensify in an area that is already seeing too much pressure. You view that position as a fit, but said nothing about the fact that the nearly $300.00 LE areas outnumber the only viable General season area. This fact is so typical of the mindset that controls our hunting privledges and is reflective of other local government decisions.

And yes I have tried to participate and voice my opinion and am also a member of SFW. But just like when light rail was voted down it was all for naught. They have their agendas and know what they want to do and those who differ be damned.

I visit neighboring states on a regular basis and in so many ways the people there still matter and have a voice. It used to be that way here too, but not anymore. Those days are gone in Utah and the first chance I get, so am I!

quote:

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Originally posted by MC:
Cold Bore- Aren't you from WY or MT??

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Nope. Not sure where you got that idea, but I'm from TN...

Like I said, I'm a visitor to your state and all (or WOULD be if I can draw that tag...), but it is *still* expensive...

Cold Bore- I havn't been on this site much, so I am obviously mistaken! I hope that you do come to Utah and hunt. I would offer any help I could. Good luck, and yes the LTD Entry tags are expensive, but they are Esstentially a Once-In-A-Lifetime experience. The General Season tag prices are reasonable, when compared to most Western states.

Western- You are human and have the right to your own opinion. I will respect that, even though I do not agree with it.

One thing that is clear though is that the Unitas can not get overharvested, seeing their is a cap on tags, one which has been in effect for many years. I hunt 4 different "herd units" of Any Bull elk in Utah. All hunting is done on public land and I have witnessed with my own eyes the number of bulls. There are tons of elk out there, but few hunters who can be successful.

Hope you find the place you are looking for. I have friends in WY and CO who are whiners to about their State's situation. Wyoming deer are way down. Elk numbers continue to fall. WY residents have tough draw odds. CO has small 2 1/2 year raghorns, many hard to draw deer units, and give 40% of their tags to Nonresidents. My Bro-In-Law lives in Nevada and has only drawn 1 deer tag in 5 years, then didn't get a deer. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but many times it is just an illusion.

Good luck on your draw and finding that which suits you.

quote:

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Originally posted by MC:
Cold Bore- I havn't been on this site much, so I am obviously mistaken! I hope that you do come to Utah and hunt. I would offer any help I could. Good luck, and yes the LTD Entry tags are expensive, but they are Esstentially a Once-In-A-Lifetime experience. The General Season tag prices are reasonable, when compared to most Western states.

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MC-

Thanks for the offer.

We have friends down around Bryce Canyon (Tropic) that we plan to hunt with if I can ever get that tag.

My parents spent three summers there volunteering with the NPS at Bryce Canyon, and I was lucky enough to make a couple trips a year there to visit them.

We did a lot of fishing, shed hunting, etc. We saw some awesome animals, and found some beautiful sheds.

Paradise if I get to hunt it....