The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Winchester is really pushing their WSM by using their new shadow models as bait.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Winchester is really pushing their WSM by using their new shadow models as bait. | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Took a look at Winchesters newest gun catalog. I might be interested in these new super shadows and ultra shadows for their synthetic stocks, especially the Mossy Oaks camo if they weren't only offered in the WSMs which I have no love for. Makes you wonder if the WSMs are selling all that well that they need baiting. I do have a tingle for the .284 case though. | ||
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| one of us |
I'd say it indicates that the WSM's are selling really well. Makers tend to turn out what they think will sell. No use building a bunch of rifles in calibers that will only sit on the stock room shelves, no one makes any money off of that. | |||
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one of us |
I've sure heard from a bunch of buddies and family members recently that either have bought a WSM or are planning on it. I think they really are selling that well. Hell, if I could justify a new rifle I think I'd have to get the .270 WSM. Sure had a good time burning up powder in my Dad's new one. Real nice shooting rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
So why the bait? I can guarantee you that the old calibers would sell well in these new shadow models if offered. So, how is that making money if you limit your potential sales? | |||
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| one of us |
Well, I'll give you one man's answer. I bought a new 270WSM. Will it do anything that my 270, or 280, or 264 or 7Mag, etc. will not do? No.... but it's been a blast to work with. And even though it cost only $389, with scope, it is the most accurate out-of-the box rifle that I've bought in 40 years. And I would not have bought it if it would have been a 270, 06, 280, etc. Logical, probably not....but it's been fun. Jim | |||
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quote:You think it's bait? I think they chose to offer their new style rifles with their new style cartridges, which are selling quite well. I bet the .270WSM and the .300WSM are outselling their counterparts by a long margin right now. | |||
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I almost bought a Win. 270 WSM yesterday...It was close..sakofan..Just wasnt crazy about the "controlled feed program" though. | |||
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What will be telling is if CDNN starts having "closeouts" on them in the months to come, like they have been having on the various models in the long-ultra magnums. I believe the American gun companies try to cash in on marketing to the "Caliber Queers", those that lust after the latest-greatest caliber that they read about in the gun magazines. I have a confession: I was once a Caliber Queer. I would read about some new development and lay in bed at night thinking about it. I would come up with plenty of justification as to why I just had to have one. I would spend tons of money tracking one down and taking everything to the 'enth degree. But after considerable soul-searching and self counseling I opt to instead spend my money on going hunting. I whack things with rifles that I know work in rather standard calibers (30-06, 300 Weatherby, .375 H&H, etc). When the urge hits me to buy something different, I equate how much it costs into how many days hunting in Africa it represents. | |||
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allen, quote:I don't think it's necessarily a good idea for anybody that has the old rounds to trade them in on the new short magnums. From a marketing standpoint it makes good sense for Winchester to aim at the guy moving up to a magnum calibre in an affordable model. The controlled round push feed is a good idea and I'm surprised more manufacturers didn't jump on it after Savage did it originally but I think you'll see more of it in the near future. I agree it's not the same level of finish in the 'Winchester' tradition that we expected in the past but it's a utility model and is a good rifle for the money. | |||
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I had no use for a 'magnum' rifle for the hunting I do here in Aus, but bought a .300WSM because is was new and I was interested. I love it, my .30/06 is in the back of the safe, still loved but semi-retired. I would never have bought a long .300 Mag so I guess the 'new' rounds offer something that a lot of people want - I am sure I am not alone. Now I just want Mr Winchester to bring out a .257WSM, just so I can see if my .25/06 moves back a couple of spots. [ 08-17-2003, 13:45: Message edited by: HiWall ] | |||
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I don't see why Winchester would be using "bait" to sell their new rifles when it appears these WSM cartridges and rifles that are offered in them are selling like crazy now. If you don't like them, then don't buy them. But it seems like Winchester, Savage, and others ain't having a problem selling the most popular cartridges on the market now. | |||
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| new member |
I believe the African outfitters try to cash in on marketing to the "Africa Queers", those that lust after the latest-greatest safari that they read about in the hunting magazines. I have a confession: I was once a Africa Queer. I would read about some new safari and lay in bed at night thinking about it. I would come up with plenty of justification as to why I just had to go. I would spend tons of money planning and taking everything to the 'enth degree. But after considerable soul-searching and self counseling I opt to instead spend my money on shooting. I whack things with new rifles that I make work rather than waisting time and $ in Africa. When the urge hits me to go on another trip, I equate how much it costs into how many rounds of ammo and new guns it represents. | |||
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It is called M-O-M-E-N-T-U-M. Winchester captured it with the WSMs, built on it with the WSSMs, and are trying to maintain it and hold the "buzz" with new introductions. It's called marketing, men; and Winchester is doing an excellent job of it. While you other guys are standing around pretending to be practical, and turning your nose up at the WSMs, try to stand off to the side so you don't get run over by the crowd trying to buy these WSM alternatives. Seems to me a lot of the current comments about the WSMs not selling well are coming from the guys who originally said they didn't think the WSMs would make a dent in the market. I think you've pretty well been proven wrong, so get over it. It's time to sneak in to a sporting good store after dark, buy you one, then try to pretend you don't like it. Tell your friends some one gave it to you, or a dead relative left it to you and you will only keep it for sentimental reasons. We'll understand. | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
I like the WSM's. I did not expect any miracle and did not get one. So far the 7mm WSM is a rifle that I shoot on every trip to the range. A 270 WSM is in the works. No big deal really but it's fun. There was a 300 WSM in a SS Ruger with a 2-10 Weaver on it at the local shop last night. I almost grabbed it but my plate is full. Got to go in the basement and lap that die some more. | ||
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quote:Matt Norman... I think there is alot of truth to what you are saying. *They* are oftan called the "5 percenters". I also believe there is a group "New" shooters that exist that I call the "decade shooter" By "decade shooters" I mean these are people who "have been shooting for decades"... one box at a time, and are generaly pissed off people who have little experiance but have "decades of shooting". Many of these "decade" shooters are frustrated because they are not sure if the deer shot by their 7mag in 1972 droped faster than the one shot on a video at Rons Guns yesterday by a winchesterultrashortsupermagnumoftheweek. Both types of "new" shooters so badly want to believe. What isnt new, are ballistics, of the *new* cartridges, or the fact that deer and elk can and do travel about the same distance after being hit with cartridges ranging from .277-.375 even at *new* velocities. Of course you couldnt convince them of that, what would they have to believe in? [ 08-17-2003, 22:55: Message edited by: smallfry ] | |||
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quote:Well...I agree with allen day on this one. Mine is a .338WM, and maybe I would be interested in a .338WSM, but the fat case would probably be a little difficult to feed reliably. Also, a "new" .338 would be using the same .33 bullets. I can't see any advantage in any of the WSM's when compared to the standard Magnum rifles. Would a .300WSM with a 180-grain NOS kill deader than a .300WM with the same bullet? | |||
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one of us |
To paraphrase Allan, the new 300 Winchester has no substantial real world benefit over the 300 H&H. The problem with this kind of thinking is that for someone buying a new gun, minimal benefit is still a benefit. It a 300 WSM is a little lighter, and has a little shorter bolt throw, and doesn't kick any worse, and shoots just as fast, and is a little more accurate, then what? Then it is the better choice, in today's world. The WSM's are succesfull enough already to ensure that ammo will be around for most hunter's lifetimes (which is about 30 years for most of us and we only buy ammo the first 20 years). So what is the drawback to TODAYS BUYER? None! Lots of little improvements, shorter, lighter rifles, easier scope mounting, pretty accurate factory ammo. Now, somebody make me a 35WSM, in a short action pump rifle with a match quality switch barrel design. Please. (a guy can dream, can't he?). JMO, Dutch. | |||
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quote:Exactly! Furthermore the PF CRF was a result of WSM sales not the bait. Wally | |||
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So why is it so BAD when the manufacturers are offering new products and they are selling well? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Yes, the 7WSM is redundant to the 7MM RM. But the 270, 280, 25/06, 7-08, 308, 264, etc, etc, are all about the same as the 06...fractions of an inch in bullet diameter, small percentages difference in velocity...no deer would ever know the difference. We gun cranks love to worry about minutia! Is it bad to have more choices? Do we have to be "queer" to want to buy a new rifle? I guess I just don't understand the negativity, and the "I think this way.... so everyone else should, too..and if they like different things, they are inferior beings." I like my new 270 WSM. It won't do anything that a lot of my other rifles won't do. And, at $389, controlled round push feed, it doesn't have the "class" that my pre 64's do, but it is accurate,it feeds smoothly, and I can throw it in the back of my pickup on the ranch and not worry about it. For my purposes, it's a great rifle...why do some have to act superior and denigrate it? Jim | |||
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| One of Us |
A good friend of mine just purchased a 270 WSM. He is left handed and really wanted the rifle in the Winchester model 70, which is a very reliable and sound rifle for any hunter walking the woods today. Winchester kept dragging their feet with the left hadn model so he ended up buying the Browning. Today with factory ammo he shot 2 groups (3 shot), both measured approx. .6 inch. He said that this rifle was very comfortable to shoot with very mild recoil and he was more than happy. I think some people can't see past any rifle that they own and value when it comes to some of the new calibers. Some are certainly going to be less than desirable but you can bet that some will be with us for many years to come. The 270 WSM looks like a winner to me. This rifle dressed with a scope and ready to go weighed 8# 4 oz. I don't think Wincheser is offering bait, they are offering something that is selling well in a new model to get if off to a good start. If you don't care for it you can join the crowd in the rockers on the porch complaining about everything else that is new. [ 08-18-2003, 05:26: Message edited by: Customstox ] | |||
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Dutch, quote:Now that's a project I could get behind. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Well said, Customstox! I'm impressed with the 270 WSM. Hoping to pick mine up in a few weeks. | |||
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Interesting how much debate centers around whether or not cartridge X has any "real world improvement" over cartridge Y. It's silly to try to decide which cartridge is the "best" when they are all basically doing the same thing. Any of us here could list at least 10 different chamberings that would be fine - no, ideal - for 99% of the hunting done in the US, for instance. I get the image of a bunch of guys sitting around Baskin Robbins [ice cream store in the states, known for having a wide variety of flavors], and they're all eating either chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry, and then this fellow comes up with the nerve to order banana. So these others commence to berate him with all sorts of "real world" wisdom about how that new-fangled thing won't do anything there's doesn't. It's not like the WSM's are going to put a dent in the availability of over-the-counter 270 Winchester ammo or anything. I happen to think the 7mm Rem is about poifek for a 7.5# mountain rifle, so why not the WSM? Oh, and Dutch, make mine a 358-348 Imp in a lever. Same round, loaded a bit lower pressure. | |||
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It is quite interesting when you read all the posts in here on the new short mag cartridges. From merely looking at this last string it would seem that: 1) the WSM cartridges have become a success (wittness how many people have or will buy one) 2) in particular the .270 WSM seems to have found a market - probably because it is offering "more" (forgetting the .270 Wthby for the moment) than the standard cartridge in this caliber. It is interesting that Norma is now offering cases and ammo for the .270 WSM (as well as the .300 WSM). 3) the .300 WSM seems to have caught on as well - perhaps not quite to the same degree 4)the 7mm WSM does not seem to have become very popular 5) the Remington equivalents seem to get a lot less attention. In general I think it is a good thing when firearms manufacturers come up with new ideas and products. If they did not, they would eventually go bust, and we shooters would all suffer. I'm not planning on getting one these cartridges right now (although the .270 WSM sounds interesting), but surely that does not mean I have to reject the idea out of hand. At the time the WSMs first surfaced, there was a lot of talk about the cartridges would be difficult to get to feed. I find it interesting, that none (or very few) of the new WSM owners (factory rifles, mostly) mention any feeding problems. - mike | |||
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quote:Fellow advertising in Handloader that's doing M14/M1A rechambers and rebarrels to the WSM. Uses stock .308 magazine. Wally | |||
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So, the WSM debate continues.... Are they good cartridges or are they bad? Does it really matter what the officail verdict is? Not really, because there will always be someone who says they are the greatest thing since a pocket on a shirt and there will always be those who say they are useless. But in the end, even that doesn't really matter. The more we consumers have to choose from is supposed to be a good thing, be it in cartridges, or rifles, pick-up trucks or colors of paint. I like the fact that I can make a decision to purchase a certain cartridge, instead of having my mind made up for me before I ever walk thru the door of a gun store. The more choices that I have, the better I like it. Further, just because the WSM isn't a good idea to someone else, sure as hell doesn't automatically mean it isn't a good idea for me. It is my rifle, my cartridge, my money and by gosh.... it is my decision. If you don't like the idea of the WSM, it is a whole easier for you keep your money in your pocket than try to convince the world that I should do the same. The WSM has a pretty good following...that seems pretty clear by the numbers of people buying them, the manufacturers who are chambering them and adding new rifles in the cartridges, and by the amount of press they are getting, both for and against. The pro WSM'ers are touting the advantages and the anti WSM'ers are trying to convince everyone that we already have something just as good and don't need anything new. But if we as a people never did anything new, would we have even taken flight, broken the sound barrier, attained orbit, or landed on the moon? I have a 300WSM and I like it. I don't pretend that it is something magic, but I also give it it's due credit and accept it for what it is. I bought it because I thought it was neat, and I still think that way. Sometimes I will hunt with it. Sometimes, I'll hunt with my 45-70, or 375. It doesn't matter to me that the 300WSM is the latest, greatest, neatest, most spectacular thing to come down the pike...I don't even believe that myself. But I do enjoy loading for it, shooting it, and hunting with it. For that point alone, it is enough to maintain its place in the markey and in the woods. If you don't like it, that's fine with me...and I don't care. Just give me the same couresty in return. | |||
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The *new* cartridges dont bother me so much, however I would rather see the money or more money being spent on improving the quality of existing rifles. | |||
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| one of us |
BAIT????????????? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} If your hankering for a synthetic "Black Shadow" stocked M70 rifle other than a WSM then just read a little further down the page 12 in the Winchester catalog. They list for the "Black Shadow" in these plain vanilla non-WSM catridges: 270Win, 30-06 Springfield, 7mm Rem mag [.284"], and 300 Win Mag. Also in a Composite stock is the M70 Classic Stainless, offering two additional cartridges added to the above mentioned ones: 338 Win Mag,and 375 H&H. As for yesterdays M70's fit&finish, like 1964, yesterdays gone. | |||
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| <Herb D> |
This sounds a bit like the front porch discussions at the turn of the century re: that new fangled contraption "the automobie". Obviously there was nothing wrong with horses. They got you where you wanted to go. Who'd want to spend money on the new contraption that was - at best - unreliable, needed that stuff called gasoline, belched smoke and required mechanics to keep them running. What's wrong with the tried and proven ways? I concede this analogy might be a bit extreme, but nevertheless it serves to illustrate my point. Better yet, what's wrong with change when new products come along that perform better? And perform better the new WSM should by the inherent design improvements. Don't want to lose the belt? Don't like improved efficiences and accuracy? You don't suppose that maybe it's simply a prejudice against something short and fat. You don't have to buy it. But there will be plenty who will. I would, but I like my Ultra Mags better. [ 09-07-2003, 12:06: Message edited by: Herb D ] | ||
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one of us |
What really frosts me, with the WSM business is; This idea REALLY lends itself to tubular magazine guns. Going short & fat with a redesign of the 30-30, for example, would increase magazine capacity or allow a shortning of the magazine tube. If accuracy was improved, so much the better. But we just aren't seeing anything like this. Instead we are seeing this in box magazine, bolt action rifles where the WSM idea often reduces the magazine capacity to 2 rounds. And I just HAVE to believe these chubby shells are THAT much harder to make reliably chamber, out of that box magazine. (Though I confess to having no first hand experiance about this) Methinks the WSM idea has some merit, but we are currently going the wrong way with it. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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How many shots do you need with a 30-30? QUOTE: ""Instead we are seeing this in box magazine, bolt action rifles where the WSM idea often reduces the magazine capacity to 2 rounds. And I just HAVE to believe these chubby shells are THAT much harder to make reliably chamber, out of that box magazine. (Though I confess to having no first hand experiance about this)"" The only Rifles I'm aware of the have a reduced capacity of TWO rounds are the "Salvage's" and if their as accurate as the owners claim. Do you need more than Two rounds for back-up?? ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} As for "Reliability of Chambering" my Win M70 has cycled THREE from the magazine FLAWLESSLY since the day I took it out of the box! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} Rumors, Hardheads, and Old Farts that won't embrace change will always be around. [ 09-07-2003, 17:04: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
If the choice came down to hunting with a Japanese-built Browning A-Hole chambered for a WSM cartridge, or else a pre-64 Model 70 chambered for, say, the old-fashioned, belted .300 H&H, I'll take the Model 70 and run.... If that decision figuratively deposits me in a rocking chair on the front porch beside those who'd rather hunt with Browning High-Powers or else custom Mausers stocked in oiled-walnut, complete with rust-blued metal and leather-covered pads, then so be it. AD | ||
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On a side note, I wonder if we need lighter rifles with short barrels, or are there still any of us left that want a "rifle" with a normal length barrel on it, with craftsmanship and functionality to boot? | |||
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| one of us |
I had been toying with the idea of building a semi-custom 284 Win. but when the 7mm WSM came out I forgot about the 284. I wanted a short action, lightweight, accurate gun for hunting in the mountains. I have a 300 Win Mag that shoots fantastic, but it is a long barelled, heavier gun, and not ideal for a mountain rifle. If I hadn't owned my 300 my new gun probably would have been a 300WSM. | |||
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one of us |
Allen day, I don't get your comment about Japanese built Browning A-hole rifles. None of the new WSM rifles from Browning come from overseas. If you find an A-Bolt built in Japan it will be a standard caliber. not a wsm. The Browning rifles are made in the same plant in New Haven as the Winchesters. And have been since Browning sold out their corporation to the same Euopean Parent company that owns Winchester several years ago. I bought a 270 WSM Winchester Mod 70 SS last fall because I broke and could not get my 25-06 repaired fast enough and I wanted something in between it and my 30-06. I've shot 300+ rounds through the gun without a single missfeed or stuck shell. At the time I purchased it, I didn't know or care if it would be a successful cartridge. Two elk/1 mule deer and counting. | |||
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quote:You must be talking about that $6K rifle, six hunting weeks/year snob: Allen Day. | |||
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quote:Sounds like that Allen Day guy again. The jerkoff who thinks we all have money coming out the ass to buy custom stocked, rust blued, pre war Mausers. What a dip shit. | |||
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quote:Orion, surely you have the money to buy whatever guns you want. I thought that you were an executive in a large corporation, daily making decisions that could make or break the company... | |||
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| <allen day> |
Orion, Chic and I are different individuals, and as far as I'm concerned you're just another bag of wind attached to a mouth who's hiding behind a computer screen and a phony name and writing from an anonymous location. It's easy to call names under those conditions, isn't it? AD [ 09-08-2003, 17:16: Message edited by: allen day ] | ||
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