quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

ft/lb is just a number. I agree with Ray. Velocity and bullet construction are what's important.

Take a bullet so well designed it would make Dolly Parton look flat chested and drive it at mach 2 into the wrong spot on an animal and you'll find bullet placement is the important part.

Yessir! The MOST important part.

Some on here are failing to see that all those "irrelevant" number are so interconnected that you cannot have one without the other. Silly for sure!

Zeke

To me bullet placement is a given. I agree that a gut shot is gut shot 30-06 or 375.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Buffy,
You shot a low velocity rifle using black/substitute powder.

Look at what you posted----You are contradicting yourself!

Hip

I may be wrong (often am) but I think the Buff hunters preferred the Sharps rifles---not the Hawkins! Actually, they probably used whatever they had.

P.S. Congrats on your Bison!

Hip

Yes, I shot a bullet from a rifle using black powder.

Where did I contradict myself?

I have not chronographed any of my black powder loads, so I don't know what any of their velocities or energies are. My BP bullet did not have the velocity or energy that a bullet from my .375 RUM does, but I put my bullet in the right spot and it had enough kenetic energy to penetrate into that buffalo's lungs and cause enough damage to quickly kill him.


Were they Buff hunters or Bison hunters?

Throughout the 1800s and most of the 1900s, those animals were called American Buffalo. That's where the names of cities like Buffalo, NY or Buffalo WY and the Buffalo nickle came from.
It's not Bison, NY. Then some taxonomist decided that these weren't true buffalo like the Cape Buffalo in Africa, so we should call them by their Latin name of bison. But the Latin name of Cape Buffalo isn't buffalo, it's Syncerus, and no one calls them by their Latin name.

The only animal that I know of that is called by its Latin name is the Hippopotamus. How many people can even pronounce the Latin name of whitetail deer?


The Hawken rifles were developed by Samuel and Jacob Hawkens in 1823, and were the favorite of the Mountain men and early buffalo hunters. The Sharps rifles which could be reloaded quicker, were favored after the Civil War by the later buffalo hunters.

P.S. Thanks for the Congrats on my Buffalo!



or

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:

Some on here are failing to see that all those "irrelevant" number are so interconnected that you cannot have one without the other. Silly for sure!

Zeke

If the bullet reaches vitals and damages them, you have a dead animal.

How well it reaches it and how much it damages are a function of bullet size, construction, momentum, energy, target anatomy, and physiologic state.

If you control for all but one variable, the one with a “bigger” value will work faster. To me, that’s the essence of “knock down power”- which, given otherwise identical situations, works faster.

Saeed’s .375 kills buffalo. If Saeed used a .577 T Rex and hit the animal with an identical design monometal bullet in the exact same spot, with the same velocity, what happens? The animal falls over a bit sooner. More knock down power.

Is it needed or desirable? That’s his choice. He will kill the animal regardless. Is it dying after running 10M a bigger success than 50M of death run? Maybe in some situations, but frankly not that I have seen practically.

If Johnny wants to shoot a Buffalo with a .577 TRex, it will work. Better? Depends on how you define better.

In my case, it wouldn’t work as well because I can’t carry that heavy a rifle very far, and I wouldn’t hit much because I’d have one hell of a flinch after sighting it in at camp. That doesn’t discount it has more “knock down” power on a theoretical basis, just that it wouldn’t work for me.

Were they buff or bison? Is a pronghorn an antelope or goat? Is a mountain goat a sheep or goat? By the time we get that deciphered we won't know if killing one is done with energy or bullet construction.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Were they buff or bison? Is a pronghorn an antelope or goat? Is a mountain goat a sheep or goat? By the time we get that deciphered we won't know if killing one is done with energy or bullet construction.

You have hit the nail on the head.

You see, what I use is a unique combination, very rare.

I developed the cartridge myself.

I built the rifle myself.

I designed and made the bullets myself.

This gives my hunting an advantage never seen before.

All I have to do is point the rifle in the general direction of the buffalo, and pull the trigger.

The bullets find their own way to a vital area.

Once the bullet just touches the animal, he is dead!

quote:

Originally posted by Timbavati:
I have used a 375HH as a plains game and mountain rifle for 20 years. The rifle was custom built to shoot the 270gr Barnes TSX bullet. Great results. I now shoot the LRX with even better results. Point is that I have dug more TSX bullets out of animals than any other. This means the TSX bullet gives up all of its energy because of it's design. If your rifle can shoot the TSX, try it. You also need a Nightforce scope, just saying.

I've been loading TTSX bullets in my 338WM lately. I'm amazed at their accuracy and how well they buck strong winds but haven't shot any critters with them yet.

Notwithstanding Nightforce's Australian origins, though, I'm happy to say my rifle is graced with a great old reticle-movement Hensoldt Diavari 1.5-6x. Along with its Zeiss sister, I doubt there's ever been a better hunting scope.

A fright train at 100 MPH is deadly knock down even on elephants et al..

Enough velocity to do what is needed. Good enough bullet design to destroy enough organs.

Is all that is needed.

What is needed

It can vary widely form animal to animal.

Situation to situation.

Then far more important is how each and every shooter thinks it should preform.

quote:

Originally posted by Timbavati:

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:
I have a 30-06 and a 375 h@h
I have them having the same recoil. about 25 pound of recoil
the 30-06 shoots a 200 gr bullet at 2530 fps
the 375 h@h a 300 gr bullet at 2150
at 340 yard the 30-06 has about 1800 foot pound of energy and traveling at 2000 fps
at 340 yard the 375 h@h has bout 1600 foot pound of energy and traveling at 1600
knock down power is for the 375 about 23 and the 06 is about 17
the scope is a Swarovski Z8 1-8 and has a ballistic turret so I can dial in for the range

to your opinion your choice for hunting moos

I think I will go down to 250 gr in my 375 less recoil than the 300
has long has I have the same velocity than my 06 2550 fps

Add a well placed shaft and broad head to the mix. Anything you can kill with a bazooka can and has been killed with a simple stick and string..... Dead is Dead!!!!

A 45-70 can and probably has killed anything in North America.

Two important points raised here:

Bullets have a mind of their own after
entering the target's body--most hunters have
seen this.

Pass-throughs don't guarantee a blood trail--
think thick subcutaneous fat on a bear.

You choose your weapon with care, considering the experience of yourself and others, and put the bullet in the right place, being ready to add others if the first projectile doesn't work.

DManson

For all of the abuse the 270 WCF gets. I have dozens of elk, mule deer and black bear one shot kills almost all DRT. The one exception was a mule deer doe I shot in a Red Spring Wheat field in Montana. I shot her at 30 yards and she gamboled away. I didn't even shoot again because I thought something had knocked my scope off alignment. Then she fell over dead the tree behind where I shot her was painted in red. The other exception was the brown bear I killed in Alaska. Perfect shot behind the shoulder with a 300g A-Frame from a 375 H&H as it was quartering away at 13 yards. So close I could see the entrance wound spurt blood before the recoil took it out of the sight picture. The bear took 5 minutes to die (I'm guessing) we followed the blood trail after he quit making noise and it was like someone was throwing buckets of blood. It was coming out of his mouth. Perfect expansion, traversed the bear diagonally. Bullet still weighs 299.5 grains. Still he took 5 minutes to die. As my Mexican American friend says "Quien Sabe?"

I "think" a bullet that expands as chucks picture shows that is perfect expansion and smooth as a babys butt in many instances fails to tear up blood vessels, arterys etc as they slip around the bullet undamaged so to speak, whereas a bullet that expands in a ragged series of fan blades destroys more and kills quicker as a rule..

This of course is only my observation and that the perfect mushroom Toad stole may not be what its cracked up to be?? the reason I backed off Swift A-frame, I do like the Sirocco on PG, and it was develooped for that reason IM told..Giving us the option I was told by the powers that be..

Like I said this is only my observation, based on about 50 head of PG and a couple of buffalo, and the A-Frames worked fine on buffalo, but the PG seemed to make a lot of tracks and not a lot of blood, in a 30-06 and a 338..????????

I shot an anvil with a 500 grain bullet travelling 3023 fps and it didn't kill it. Explain that one.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I shot an anvil with a 500 grain bullet travelling 3023 fps and it didn't kill it. Explain that one.

Because it was already dead and had assumed room temperature?

I think there is such a thing as knock down power.

Defining it mathematically and generating proof is a little problematic. You are dealing with a biologic system, so controlling for variables is hard.

That doesn’t mean a choice with less knock down power won’t kill or work… and how the difference looks in the real world.

It’s not energy that kills, it’s holes.

I hit a deer perfectly broadside with my 6800lb truck doing 50 MPH and the deer just ran off. Do the math and see that deer was hit with 568,292.336367572 foot pounds of energy and simply ran off. I drove the truck home so the projectile held together well.

Similar deer with a leg hung up in a wire fence hit perfectly broadside behind the shoulder with a .22 cal lead bullet at 1040fps at a mere 96.04894802158792 foot pounds and it went straight down.

All that matters is the hole and where you make it.

Take the rifle you shoot the best, use suitable quality bullets for the task, and simply enjoy your hunt.

quote:

I think there is such a thing as knock down power."C R Butler"

Defining it mathematically and generating proof is a little problematic. You are dealing with a biologic system, so controlling for variables is hard.

And I think the only absolute is you don't know until after you pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I shot an anvil with a 500 grain bullet travelling 3023 fps and it didn't kill it. Explain that one.

Too slow, not enough velocity

The real culprit as to why the anvil was not killed was the cast bullet I was using was only 16BHN and 18BHN would have done the job with the right lube. I had cast the bullets from ingots that were made with an ingot mold but had I tracked down muffin pans from garage sales, the ingots would have been better suited. I know all this to be true from reading all the rocket science involved in casting bullets--ooppss many say boolits.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Were they buff or bison? Is a pronghorn an antelope or goat? Is a mountain goat a sheep or goat? By the time we get that deciphered we won't know if killing one is done with energy or bullet construction.

You have hit the nail on the head.

You see, what I use is a unique combination, very rare.

I developed the cartridge myself.

I built the rifle myself.

I designed and made the bullets myself.

This gives my hunting an advantage never seen before.

All I have to do is point the rifle in the general direction of the buffalo, and pull the trigger.

The bullets find their own way to a vital area.

Once the bullet just touches the animal, he is dead!

Is that still true if Walter shot the bullet?

quote:

I designed and made the bullets myself.

This gives my hunting an advantage never seen before.

All I have to do is point the rifle in the general direction of the buffalo, and pull the trigger.

The bullets find their own way to a vital area.

Once the bullet just touches the animal, he is dead!

Sorry but your violating copy write and patent right laws.

The perfect bullet company all ready has the rights to the perfect bullet. read it and weep.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...101046541#7101046541

Even Walther can not F up with the perfect bullet

knockdown power

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
knockdown power

There are time having enough gun with proper shot placement is very helpful.

Yes, indeed!

A charging elephant is some old cows calf raised on milk!! I always carry a bottle of milk in my back pocket in case of a charge, now thats stopping power!

When I was in my very early 20s I moved to Montana. I was an assistant guide in the Bob Marshall. We still got grizzly tags back then. I had a BDL in 270 and I thought it was a cannon! I hunted brown bear about 10 years ago with a 375 H&H and wished I had brought my 500 Jeffery lol. Age changes things ...

I would, if necessary, hunt any animal on this earth with a 30-06 and a 200 gr. Noslers, and be allowed some solids for backup or elephant..and I would feel confident and safe..I know some folks that have..