So many choice, so little money...

Ask Aspen Hill Adventures (Ann) she is pretty experienced and can put you on to a whole group of female shooters/hunters. She quickly answers e-mail.

Not to put down any of the excellent suggestions given so far, but I always prefer to ask a woman about a woman's point of view. Experience has taught me that lesson...

Maybe a 375 or 416 Taylor to get a big bullet, then load to the velocity that she can handle. Maybe the 375 Hawk? less powder, same velocity = less recoil. ??

Okay, my wife's next hunting passion (she got her antelope last year) is bear. I'm advocating that she start with lower-48 blackies, but she's dedicated to eventually hunting brownies up north. I'm not complaining, I love that she's passionate about hunting like me.

Her new "cause" does bring up a concern though. Her current big game rifle is a Ruger M77 in .257 Roberts. She's proven to be quite deadly with this rifle and has successfully taken a couple mule deer, a nice antelope, and a huge gemsbok. While I'm relatively confident that, with proper bullets, it could take out a 200 pound black bear, I'm sure she'd be undergunned chasing the bigger fellas up north.

That begs the question: what cartridge and rifle next for her? She's a pretty small gal and is not overly fond of recoil. She shoots the .257 with ease, and could likely handle a .308, which I've considered. I have a spare M77 in .243 that I could donate as a project action. I've been considering a makeover to .358 Win or even .338-08. Alternatively, I could just buy a .308 (or similar cartridge) in a similar rifle, but I still worry about being undergunned. I realize that most big bear guides require at least a .338 Mag, so that leaves me searching for an adequate cartridge for the wife. Given her size, the rifle itself needs to be relatively small, which makes big magnums, long barrels, and noisy muzzle brakes as an option of last resort.

I would appreciate your comments, suggestions, advice, or just idle commentary as related to my rifle quest.

9.3X62 mm mauser

You can still add a murcury recoil reducer in the stock as well as the forearm (use the murcury guide rods for 1911's) as well as add a muzzlebreak if required.

Recoil velocity of the 9.3 is less than that of the .338 so felt recoil is less (not as sharp) to start with.

However, for blackies the .308 is fine.

I have never shot a bear. Nor do I have the desire to shoot a black bear. However, from talking to folks that have killed quite a few blacks and have no reason to lie nor impress, I gather the black bear is not nearly as tough nor as hard to kill as some would have you think. Back in the good old days, before they invented the bullet proof deer and bear of today, the black bear was routinely killed with thutty-thutties, .300 savages, .35 Rems and the like. That said, I think a model 7 in a 7-08 or perhaps a .308 would be the ticket for your diminutive wife. Or that .243 of yours would convert to a 7-08 with just a barrel change. And this would give you the plethora of 7mm bullets available. Hunting around here (WV), I use a model 7 in 7-08 (with a 1.5x5 scope) and a 154gr Hornady round nosed bullet. And, if I needed a dead bear, I wouldn't feel at all shy about sticking one of those in a black bear. If the range was going to be a bit longer, I might go to a 140gr NP or a 145gr Grand Slam.
.338 Geeeeez.

If you are going guided most guides just want you to be able to put the first shot where it needs to be some of the ones I have talked to have even let hunters use 270's and they said they work well with the right bullets. I would say a 270 WSM or 30/06 or 300 WSM would work fine as long as you put it in the right place and you can get all three of those calibers in a Weatherby Vanguard for 399.99 for the blued or 499.99 for the Stainless one. The Vangaurd is a little heavier and with those calibers it should not have much recoil. You might want to look at Savage as well their Weather Warrior has a Muzzle break you can turn off and on so you could turn it off( so you dont blow your ear drums out) when she needs to shoot the bear at that point she will probably be more worried about the bear then the recoil and you can get it from a 270 to a 338 win mag. http://www.savagearms.com/116fsak.htm I hope this helps

A .338 in a Browning BAR, if she has plenty of backup. The automatic will take a considerable amount of the recoil out of the rifle, they will hang up if dirty or frozen, so good backup is necessary as in two guns. I took a big Brown with a .300 Win mag and that experience taught me to use more rifle even though I had a one shot kill. Good luck and good shooting.

Desert Ram,



I know where you are coming from. My wife doesn't like recoil either. My solution to that problem was a Remington Model 700 Syn. Stocked 270 win w/ a Sims Vib. Lab. Recoil pad. I loaded down some 140 grn NBTs so, recoil is very mild in that rifle and it is a great combo for deer.



Now, to address the problem at hand. One of the rifles I shoot is a Syn. Rem. 700 7mm Rem. Mag. w/ a Nikon Monarch 5.5x16.5x44AO. I have always noticed that my rifle had a very mild recoil so, while at the range I let my wife shoot my rifle (I told her that the recoil was about the same as her 270). She was able to drill the bullseye at 100 yards very easily and she agreed that the recoil wasn't that much worse than her 270 (The 7 mag doesn't even have the Sims Recoil pad).



You might consider a Syn. Stocked Rem. Model 700 7mm mag. w/ a Sims Pad. If you reload, you can load some well constructed 160-175 grners and have a deadly combo for Big Bears w/ a very mild recoil. Maybe a 30-06 w/ a Sims Pad.



Good Luck!



Hope this helped.



Reloader

For the big brown bears, I'd vote for the 9.3x62. Big enough bullet with little recoil. For black bears a 308 would be fine. I've always heard whatever you use for deer will work, so for me that would be a 30-06.

sevens

I don't agree that what you use for deer will automatically be good gr bear. Average bear yes, but not the one you really want. Even in PA 400 to 500 lb bears aren't unheard of and biggest was over 700 pounds. The hide, muscle and bones on a really big black bear can be impressive. If you ever have to follow up a wounded bear this size I'll bet recoil will be the last thing on your mind.

Thanks for the input fellas! I appreciate it.

And just to clarify - black bears will be the starter, then brown bears. The need for a larger cartridge arises because of the brown bears, not the blackies, for which I'm sure I could develop a load for her .257 (120 grain Partition, 100 grain TSX, etc.).

The .257 is fine for black bear with any reasonable load. Most black bear hunting is done from a stand over bait, so the range is short and shot placement is typically fairly certain.

On any brown/grizzly hunt the hunter is going to have guided back-up. This means that the most imporant thing for the hunter is to be shooting a caliber of reasonable power and penetration with which he/she can have good confidence in placing the initial shot. Realistically, there's not going to be very much difference in the reaction and lifespan of a grizzly shot with a .308/180 through the heart and one shot with a .375 H&H in the same place. The difference comes when the shot involves an obtuse angle, long range, or other adversity.

I would rather see a hunter using a .308 with which he/she can place the first shot accurately than a .375 that the hunter finds difficult to shoot.

My recommendation for a small/recoil sensative person hunting brown/grizzly would be a .308 loaded with Nosler 180's to about 2600 fps. If the bear needs anchoring, that's the guide's job.

DesertRam
My wife, 5'6", routinely shoots a .308 Win. She is also not fond of recoil. She has however, shot my .308 Norma Magnum very accurately. This was offhand only, never from a bench. I beleive many people make the mistake of leaving the recoil sensitive person shoot from the bench and absorb all of the recoil the rifle-round combination has to offer.

An acquaintence of mine has a Rem. 700 in 30-06 with a Hart muzzle brake installed on it for his wife, with 180gr bullets out of federal factor loads it was more pleasant, muzzle blast not withstanding, to shoot than my .280 Rem. with 140gr bullets. I don't know the technical reason for the lessor felt recoil, but the Muzzle brake worked.

I would probably opt for a .35 whelen or 30-06 in a rifle that fits her. Use the equivalent of light .35 rem. loads or .308 loads for practice and full house loads for the final event. For that matter, a .338 with light loads for practice, etc. Good luck, my wife says she will not hunt something that can/will hunt back.

One of the shooters has a wife that is a SERIOUS hunter.

She shoots a 375 H&H quite easily.

First thing I learned from watching her is that us bigger guys get a LOT MORE "felt" recoil than she does. The big gun moved her whole body rather that her absorbing that recoil.

I do not know if we have heard from any professional bear hunting guides here or not, but I have been told by black bear hunting guides that they prefer that a person use at least a 180 grain bullet, which narrows down the range of choices in guns and calibers. These days I carry a .300 Wby mag with 180gr NP for black bear (when I think brown bear are not around) and I have shot a couple of black bears with a .338, which killed very fast.

Clearly with modern bullet construction, more killing ability can be demanded and expected from smaller calibers and smaller bullets. But I would not try and make an antelope rifle into a black bear rifle. Black bears can be killed as easy as deer, but, given the right circumstances, so can a bunch of other animals that often enough required more firepower than an antelope or deer does. Using a small rifle might work fine sometimes, and sometimes it might not.

But if you hunt over bait (which is an excellent way to hunt black bears) and you have other guns available to backup a small rifle, then using a small caliber might be the way to go. And the backup would be as much for a quick clean kill as for defense. I always view bears as bears, no matter what the situation or type of bear. Some might be small and friendly and easy to kill and some might not.

I'd find your wife the biggest rifle she can shoot and have her use that. Some of the 7mms might work and anything that shoots a .308 caliber bullet at about 2400 fps or faster would probably work quite nicely.

Have we heard any advice from women on this topic? Good luck.. Black bear hunting is always fun!

I think the 9.3x62 is your answer, recoil is not that bad and much better than the 338 and a nice and heavy bullet

Cheers

Flip

Get her a sporter weight 358 Winchester load it up with 225gr Partitions at 23-2400fps and it will kill any bear on the planet.

Practice with cheap and light weight pistol bullets and load Sierra 225s for deer and it could become her favorite rifle.

I've taken a number of black bears with a 250-3000 with perfect results. For close range work the 35 Rem is a good choice too.

As for bigger bears, I'd go 338-06, 35 Whelen, or 9.3x62. A Whelen with a 250 PT at an honest 2450 would be a sound choice. FWIW, I've noticed a number of people saying that the 9.3x62 has significantly less recoil than a 338 WM - I disagree with this. With full boat loads (286 at 2450-2500 fps), I cannot distinguish between the two, even out of similarly-weighted rifles.

The 358 would be OK, but I'd prefer the Whelen's long action so I could go with the 280 gr A-frame if I thought it necessary.

Perhaps locate a 700 classic (complete with sights), put on some QR bases/rings and a LS pad or equivalent (the factory pad SUCKS), and start working up loads using the heavier pistol bullets - ease her into the heavier (rifle) bullets and she'll be fine. I'd also recommend a PAST pad for range time, this will lessen the chance that she develops a flinch. If you don't like 700s, there are a number of Ruger 77s floating round in 35 Whelen as well.

Good luck...

9,3x62

I have only used my Brno Zkk600 9.3x62 and I have a Kimber 338 Win, the 338 kicks the bloody hell out of my, after I have fires a couple of rounds with the 338 I can feel it on my shoulder, the 9.3 don't do that to me even if I reload at 2400 Fps

Sounds like you have a great partner!



I'd have a reasonably weighted 30-06 made up for her... not too heavy and not too light. Load it very light (ie H4895 and 125's) at first and let her get used to it in various field postion's (keep off the bench). Use a good 150 for black bear and, over a couple more years slowly work toward a hard 200 grainer at max (for Brown Bear). If she can't handle that she has no business hunting them.

Excellent input gentlemen. I had forgotten the 9.3 even though I considered one myself before acquiring a .338. I suppose that with a properly sized stock and a scope with sufficient eye relief, the wife could learn to handle more recoil. It's very difficult for her to "practice" without actually getting the rifle though because all mine are just flat too big.

I also have a mid-70s LA Model 70 hanging out in the safe. It's chambered in .243 now, so it would be a relatively simple matter to rebarrel to .338-06. I could start her out with some lightly loaded 180-200 grain bullets that would work for smaller bears and deer (if I could get her to leave her beloved .257 at home). I bet she could get used to the increased recoil and noise (and the rifle) and we could work up in power until we had her shooting a good 225-250 grain bullets for the big boys. If all else fails, I could put a nasty old muzzle break on it (uggh).

Alternatively, I could buy a CZ550 American in 9.3, shorten the barrel (maybe port it), and lop the stock off and install a good recoil pad and see where that takes us.

I like the idea of the Past pad too. Hell, I might even use that for shooting of the bench!

Thanks again.

That .243 rebarreled to a 338-08 would be a really cool combo, IMO. I don't know if you'd be limited on bullet size due to short neck/magazine, etc, but you should be able to use at least 225s.

I went through the same conundrum for my daughter. She currently shoots a Model 70 Featherweight in .257 Roberts. I finally settled on the .35 Whelen since I can handload it with pistol bullets for light loads for her, or If dangerous game in Africa is in order, the 9.3x62.

The key for handling a bigger caliber gun may just be practice. I've got a 15 year old daughter (5'5" 110 lb ballet dancer) that handles an m-77 ruger in .338 just fine. It DID take some practice ~ 100 round in several sessions, but she does well and does not flinch now.... Good luck to you

This sounds to me like the perfect scenario for a 338-06 or 35 Whelen. A good 8.5# rifle with a 24" bbl shooting 250's will do her right. And you can practice with light pistol bullets all day for next to nothing. Then at the end of the day, she won't have to feel like she's shootinga "girl's gun."

simple, 338-06, 25" barrel, muzzlebreak, good decelerator pad, and earplugs. Length of pull must fit her well, probably about 9-10"

doc

9.3x62:

I have a petite wife as well. I got that figure because when my wife shoulders a rifle that has a 10" pull it fits her well when she is dressed in winter gear that is thick. Think about it. It may feel short at the range, but when you go hunting with thick clothes on, it's a different story.

I shoot a .270 with a 12" LOP during colder months and it fits perfect for me with the extra clothing on.

I knew I'd have to qualify that comment after I submitted it. Your response was funny.

doc

Actually, I do the same thing. One of my favorite cold-weather whitetail rifles is a lightweight barreled 250-3000 on a 722 action. I've got a 12.25" LOP on it - works great with the winter garb.

Loads of good advices here.
My humble experience regarding 9,3x62 , 35 Whelen and 338 win mag is that they are more or less in the same family recoilwise. The felt difference between them is related to stock design, more than weight.

My advice, for the blackies : 308 win or 358 win.

Another thing that I feel is important, ( and lessons learned when training my two doughters shooting ) is the scope.
A scope biting your brow will defenately take all the focus away from shooting and recoil, and the main and only issue left is the blood dripping down the nose !

Be sure the scope has ample eye relief so she don�t has to worry about beeing hit each time she let off the trigger.

Anyway.....good luck