Last week while still hunting up a ridge I spotted a nice buck moving one hillside over. Immediately new he was a shooter and wasted no time getting on my butt for a 215yrd shot with my 3030AI. The rifle with 150XFN's is zeroed @ 175yrds and has a 6" drop at 215yrds. I held mid shoulder and stopped the Buck. My nerves were good (not enough time to get too worked up), the broadside was good, the hold was good, no wind (maybe some sinking thermal), the trigger break was good, and at the shot the buck jumped a bit then came to me a few steps then walked at a moderate pace with another Buck (I had not seen the 2nd Buck) side hill toward the ridge that I was on. I did not take another shot since he was moving, I could not tell if he was hit, and I thought I could get another shot when they crossed farther up the ridge I was on. My ridge was crowned and I could not see far up it until I closed the distance by 1/2 at which time I saw one Buck walking, but not sure which (they were both good bucks). I stopped this Buck, but did not shoot since I started thinking the other might be down and this was the 2nd Buck. This Buck dissapeard into the Oak Bruch in a hurried walk then I began searching. I crisscrossed the area where the first Buck stood when I shot, the trail the one Deer took across my ridge, and the wooded area downhill between the two hills for over an hour, but no sign of a hit. I figured that the Buck I saw on my ridge may have been the 2nd and mine may have crossed before I could see him. I am having a hard time believing I missed, but maybe I did shoot under him. I did not check the area higher because I have never seen an animal head uphill when hit if my position was undetected which was the case here. Has anyone seen a hit Muley go uphill vs sidehill/downhill when he was unaware of your position (another guy I respect also believes the Buck would not go uphill). Thinking seriously about hiking the area again, but it will have to wait until after Thanksgiving since I will be too busy working and traveling. I won't recover much if I do find him, but its killing me to think he may be down, especially since he was a very good Buck. What do you guys think?

Deke.

I'd be checking uphill--sometimes they will go uphill not always but I've seen it happen with elk and deer--deer especially in the rut do weird things when hit--chris

They will often go uphill when wounded especially if a front leg or shoulder is disabled, it is easier for them to go uphill as the rear legs take the weight, going downhill all the weight goes on the front end, hard for them to maintain control and balance going downhill with the front suspension and steering buggered.

If you hit him a little far back, and got into the guts a little, the rumen may have plugged up the hole(s) and very little if any blood would be found.

How did it sound? Did you hear the bullet hit? Chances are if he was moving with the other buck he would have continued to. When he started feeling weak he turned downhill and is hidden in some brush. If you hit him with any real damage he wouldn't have gone to far. Like said earlier, if the damage is in the front you may have had him go up. If he started "down" toward you and you lost sight of him, is there a saddle he could have climed and gone through without being seen? If not he's in the bottom and just well hidden. Nate

He'll be easier to find if you go back now,

Just follow your nose!!

Unfortunately where hunting is concerned it is very difficult to really know what happened without an autopsy. All you can do is search up to the point that you feel you have done everything possible to find the deer.

Do you guys ever use dogs to follow up deer?

FB

...in our country we have a regulation that says that every shot fired on big game that wasnt retrieved must be checked with skilled tracking dog...so we had our work (about 120 + trackers with 20 years tracking on average of 30 times per year) put down and came to the conclusion that around 22 % of shots on big game that were proclaimed by shooter to be a miss (no sign of hit by animal or signs on ground) was not only hit but actually retrieved at the end...here are statistics from 1996 - 2004:

year NoCT NoAF %
1996 211 40 18,9
1997 297 88 29,6
1998 378 90 23,8
1999 400 89 22,2
2000 409 82 20,0
2001 441 99 22,5
2002 487 109 22,4
2003 453 106 23,4
2004 612 94 15,4

NoCT - number of trackings on pronounced missed shots
NoAF - number of actually found animals

...so on conclusion - you can hardly be ever sure of your miss...

Don't have hounds and they are not required (in fact, I wonder if they are prohibited.....). Gonna hike back Saturday after Thanksgiving. Would go back sooner, but work and travel plans will not allow it. I am not one that hears the whack of the bullet. I really focus on calling the shot and in doing so my concentration is on my eyes and not on my ears. Like I have mentioned before, I might not have held over enough and there might have been some down thermal causing me to shoot low. I'm pretty good at calling the shot and 3/4's of the time know where the POI is before I actually see the wound. I have a real hard time thinking the shot was too far back since I called the shot center of shoulder and there was no detectable cross wind, but maybe the scope was off (will be by some NF tomorrow checking on a project and will make a 1/2hr detour to check the sights @ 215yrds). Will really look this area over again (especially uphill in the woods between the two ridges) and pay attention to my nose and look for any birds. I would think that at two weeks there might be somthing that the scavengers were still picking at.

Deke.

I was hunting with a friend who NEVER misses and watched him miss 3 shots on 3 animals in one afternoon. They ranged from 80 to 155 yds. None difficult shots. No blood found by experienced trackers and the PH pronounced them "misses".
His previous miss was 14 years before and none since. It does happen.
I had one last year on a coyote that I could not believe I missed. A friend said "Did you think there might be 2 coyotes?" We went back and looked and sure enough there was the one I shot right where the other had been bedded down in tall grass.

yup - if you hunt and shoot its just a question WHEN you will actually miss or get a bad hit... Mr. Murphy is dead on with his laws

I hope I did miss more than that he is down and being scavenged somewhere. I hope that if he is alive he is educated enough to make it until next year. He was a very good Deer. To those that know Mule Deer, his G1's were AT LEAST 4" (I never saw G1's this long) and his forks nice and deep. When I stopped him and he looked at me, his antlers were a solid 3" beyond his ears on both sides. An excellent typical and this one is making it hard to go to sleep at night. I will look real hard again after I get back from Thanksgiving.

Deke.

I have had more than one Muley go uphill after being shot. My experience is if he was hit, and he knew where the shot came from, he will go directly away from the shooter until he's over the hill. Then he will turn and go downhill the easiest direction and lay down in a small clump of brush.

Got out this morning and looked over the two intermediate areas I had not looked before and did not find anything. Had it been in the vitals I really believe I would have found him. Really don't think I hit him in the gut since the call was good and if any wind it would have only been some down thermal. Hope he makes it until next year.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Got out this morning and looked over the two intermediate areas I had not looked before and did not find anything. Had it been in the vitals I really believe I would have found him. Really don't think I hit him in the gut since the call was good and if any wind it would have only been some down thermal. Hope he makes it until next year.

Good for you!

You went back and checked. So many hunters I know would not have made the effort. It really is a sign of a mature hunter. A maturity that has nothing to do with age..

I have actually seen hunters that shot badly and left the field because they were "tired" knowing full well the game was wounded (had left a blood trail for a ways).

Was the 215 yards based on a rangefinder reading? If not, a error of 40-50 yards on your range estimation would cause a complete miss with a trajectory like that XFN has. Just a thought

bama7x57

375,
Thanks for your vote of approval. I care alot about these animals.

Bama,
I quickly glassed/ranged him @ 208yrds, got on my butt, figured he had walked out to 215yrds (rifle w/2375fps mv is zeroed @ 175yrds with about 5"-6" drop @ 215yrds), held just a smidge high of mid-shoulder when rifle fired. Still want to recheck my zero, but figured with the gun shooting 2MOA there is a decent chance I shot under him.

Deke.

215 yards for a 30-30, AI or otherwise, is a stretch. I'm not telling you to get a better tool for the job but I would suggest getting a lot closer before shooting with a 30-30.

JWZ,

Would agree that there is a better rifle for that shot, and trust me, soon after the shot I was wishing for my 7-08. This area is a mix of heavy timber on the north slopes and open hillsides on the south slopes. The 3030AI has a 2-7x scope and my 7-08 has a 4-16x. Last year all shots (that I ended up passing on) were 125yrds and less, and one was within 40yrds, so I thought the 3030 would have been best especially for a deer that I jumped within 40yrds.... In this case the Buck was walking steadily out of range and I did not think I would have time to get closer since he was walking towards the next patch of timber and the shot was not TOO far. You have to know your rifle, the conditions, make the best decision you can, and live with it. Sometimes it does not work out. Oh well, thats hunting.

Deke.

If you know the exact place he was standing at the shot there would be cut hair, even if no blood.

If there's no hair, it's probable that there's no hit.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
... You have to know your rifle, the conditions, make the best decision you can, and live with it. Sometimes it does not work out. Oh well, thats hunting...

Absolutely.

Hey Deke, Darn shame that you didn't get to break in the 30-30AI with an initial kill. Don't let it sour you on the rifle.

Some times everything goes perfectly, or so it seems, and the Bullet just doesn't land where we wanted it to. That little bit of "doubt" is actually good for us all in the long run. You will see what I mean down the road.

Go back with the 30-30AI and make a better memory.

If you have a horse, it may be worth saddling up and taking a ride. Several times we've found deer especially bowhunting from a horse, just as you can see better through brush from a tree stand you can find a deer in weeds better from a horse. Just something else to try before you give up, and if you find him you can drag him out al lot easier as well.

Tigger,
No hair that I could find and I looked pretty hard.

HotCore,
I hear you. Thinking more about that area and I don't think I would do anything different including the rifle. I start to think about a BLR in a spitzer type chambering, but then Hornady comes out with the LeveRevolution bullet. I am real curious to see if the soft rubber boat tail spitzer will be all that the writers are saying it will be. Not that it compares to a Deer, but drew blood initially on a Coyote last February.

Jstevens,
This is a very rugged and loose area, don't have access to a horse, don't know that I would want to be riding anything in there, and not sure I could convince it to go anyway since it would get pretty beat up. I wish there had been snow for tracking so I would have felt more confidant in my initial efforts.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
...I start to think about a BLR in a spitzer type chambering, but then Hornady comes out with the LeveRevolution bullet. I am real curious to see if the soft rubber boat tail spitzer will be all that the writers are saying it will be.

Hey Deke, Had no idea such a bullet was being made. Interesting concept. Let us know how they work for you.

quote:

Not that it compares to a Deer, but drew blood initially on a Coyote last February...

Good. That does help in the long run.

A string of 25-100 clean 1-shot kills will relegate the one bad shot to just a mystery.

Good hunting to you.

Jumping and walking means either you grazed a stripe under his brisket (I've shot under a deer giving it a shallow wound that I managed to recover through shooting again - the reaction was pretty much as you described) or plugged him in the guts.

The gut shot would lead to a very difficult to miss hollow thud and a characteristic tucked up gait when he walked off.

Having spent an hour last week searching for a dead doe (that I knew was dead) in a field of mid calf length turnips I wonder how people manage to hunt without a dog for trailing.... my own was at the vet for an injection, I hate stalking without her.

BTW I found ballistics programmes to greatly underestimate the drop for flat nose and round nose bullets.

Deke

Just thought the horse was a possibility. If it's that rugged I would have already been mounted!

I've seen deer go to water and have found one deer I didn't shoot still alive laying with her feet under her in the edge of a pond. She was gut shot.

I have to agree with iwzbeeman, from my experiance with a 30/30, 215 meters is way out there, 2 moa to start with and not a great deal of energy left to kill a big deer even if the shot was on the money! I feel he may be around next year, with possibly a very minor wound or nothing wrong with him at all. I would sugest a move to a .270 or 30/06.

HotCore,
Thanks again. How has your hunting been lately?

1894,
No unusual gait and like I said before, I have not heard the whack of the bullet with the last 10 head of big game I have shot (9 first shots throught the vitals plus this miss, 80yrds-350yrds, with 7-08 and 30Gibbs, this was the maiden voyage with the 3030AI). Unfortunately it is illegal to hunt Deer in Colorado w/dogs and that includes a possible wounded one.

jstevens,
I am sure an obedient horse would work, but I am not the one to do it, but like I said before this area is steep and loose. I always feel best with my feet planted on the ground and am fortunate enough to still be able to do it all with my legs.

Dugga,
Not that it will change your opinion, but the distance was 215yrds which converts to 197m. I have more powerful rifles, but a quick shooting lever gun seems to be well suited to this area with the longest shot being about 225yrds. When still hunting where I might shoot at a running deer 5yrds away or a stationary one @ 225yrds, I believe this was still a pretty good rifle for the task.

Deke.

Hey Deke, None.

Got a project which is keeping me way too busy. In fact, had a molar that appeared to be a Bit sore over the weekend and figured it was either a cavity or Project Stress. Went to the Dentist and it was NOT a cavity - grinding teeth too much.

Right now I'm having to enjoy the hunts all the AR folks post about. So get in gear and go kill a Whopper. Then let us know about it.

Once I do get this issue resolved, all the remaining Southeastern Deer are in BIG trouble.

Hotcore,

I hear you. My Deer hunting was limited to one morning and one afternoon, so I was pretty happy to get a shot at a nice Buck in such short time.

Deke.

Well the verdict is in. I had sighted the gun @ 175yrds off a firm benchrest. I shot today from a sitting position @ 215yrds with a cross wind gusting from 5-25mph. 3rd group measure 6" across (note gusting wind) and 1" high, but a full 12" below my point of aim . I will give the firm rest 1-2MOA of the problem, 1-2MOA on either bad BC info or trajectory calculator, but full blame on me. In the past I have had excellent results with ballistics calculators and the published BC's and had cofirmed them in the field. I did not confirm the 3030AI w/150XFN's. Figured I shot right under the Buck. Lesson learned, I must confirm trajectories in the field.

Deke.

quote:

I must confirm trajectories in the field.

Hey Deke, Glad to hear you got it figured out.

But, I would change the above to "Everyone needs to confirm trajectories in the field at the distances they intend to attempt a shot."