i dont know where else to put this, not sure if its a big bore forum discussion.
anyway.
i acquired a rem 870 slug gun. i believe a 22" rifled slug barrel with a cantilever scope mount mounted on the barrel, and it came with a really cheap scope that needs replacing. it has a 3" chamber.

i am applying for a couple of shotgun hunts for managed park hunts in my area, and i've never hunted with a slug gun before.

can anyone recommend specific slugs? or will basically anything that shoots decent work? i shot some 2.75" full bore slugs that grouped really well, but kicked like a damn mule.

i shot some federal fusion 3" saboted slugs that grouped about 1.75" at 100y. they kicked less than the 2.75" that i had, so i think i may go with them. the 870 is so light and that scope is such a p.o.s. it has almost no eye relief, so its a bit scary to shoot. luckily, no new forehead scars

what sort of accuracy can i achieve with this gun, and what is an effective range?

for those of you that hunt with slugs, how do you set your zero? i dont really know the ballistics of slugs, and need more range time to figure out what it will do at 50 if i set it 2" high at 100y.

for the cantilever mounts, is there anything i can do to improve accuracy of this type of mount. i dont like the diving board look of the thing, but since there is play between the receiver and barrel i'd rather have the mount mated to the barrel rather than the receiver. anyone try a rear mounting stabilization piece?

i know thats a lot of questions, thank you for your time.
john

Slug guns are no different that rifles in that they all have their own quirks as to what ammo they prefer. The best thing to do is get a selection of different brands and head to the range and see which one works best.

However, if you have already found a brand that will group less than 2 inches at 100 yards, then you are ready to hunt. For a slug gun that is pretty good and a group like that will work for 99.99% of the shots you can expect. I personally shoot an H&R Ultra and it will group about a half an inch less after extensive ammo testing. For hunting I wouldn't worry about the half inch.

I like to sight in for 50 yards with a slug gun simply because in the areas I use slugs that is about the maximum shot I can expect. But I always shoot it at 100 to see where it hits. Normally that will be about 2 inches lower than at 50 so I can still hold in the upper chest of a deer at 100 yards. But again, you need to shoot your gun on paper at different ranges to see what your gun does. For me, 100 yards is the max with a slug. It will kill deer farther than that but it begins to drop pretty fast.

If your scope is garbage, replace it immediately. Check the mount too since cantilever mounts often are garbage too. When in doubt replace them with a new high quality mount. There is a guy that works on slug guns and has his own mount that he developed. He also accurizes them. Outdoor life had an article on him about 2 years ago. His name escapes me but maybe you could do some sort of google search for him.

cooperjd, I go back to when slug guns were used typically with open sights only, so I can help only marginally with this, but, I had a similar gun. It was also a Rem, but in an 11-87. It had the optional short adjustable rifle sights slug smooth bore barrel, which I experimented with, although I never actually took a deer with it (there are I think some slug barrels that are rifled).

This was also before the sabot thing, so the ammo was just Rem solid slugs.

Anyway, the accuracy was excellent for the first 25 yards. No problem there. So naturally it should be too with your more sophisticated sighting system. But, I never tried it out to 100 yrds, although I suspect that'd be about it because I think the drop would get hard to estimate after that.

The recoil was substantially more than any pellet load I after tried. So get ready for that.

Personally, and this is just a personal opinion, I would greatly prefer a high power rifle unless you happen to be somewhere that allows only muzzleloaders and shotguns. The choice though between a muzzleloader or shotgun would be an interesting one...btw, shotguns with buckshot were the preferred way in deer drives with dogs, the first form of deer hunting I ever did.

The scope part of the question I'll leave for others, although for practical reasons I'd want it on the barrel, not the action.

I have a Remington 11-87 with the cantilever rifled barrel that I have used over 25 years for slug work on deer in Ohio. The absolute best performing slug was the Remington Copper solid 1 3/8 oz slug. It has long ago been discontinued.
They still do make a Copper Solid in 1 oz. It is an all copper slug with a deep hollowpoint and it opens easily and penetrates wonderfully with the base being a solid. Think Nosler Partition in a shotgun slug and you pretty much have the concept. I sight them in at 100 yards, they are close enough to a 50 yard zero that you will not be able to tell any difference. I have killed deer up to 130 yards away with these and the drop was less than 8 inches. The group at 1 3/4 inches at 100 yards from a rest in my shotgun. I do use a Leupold 2x8x33 scope on it rather than an old cheapie however.

We've been slug/muzzle loader only forever here in the midwest. Buckeyeshooter recommended the Remington Copper solid and I'll second it, if it groups OK in your gun.

As far as accuracy goes, you've found a slug that groups under 2" @ 100yds. I wouldn't count on that in an 870. I'd say anything that groups under 4" at 100 would be acceptable in an 870. To reduce recoil shoot 2.75" slugs and stay away from high velocity rounds. Also pinning the barrel can tweak up accuracy.

A fixed low power scope works well on slug guns. The cantilever mounts look goofy, but they are stable.

What is an effective range? I hear of people shooting deer every year past 200yds with slugs. However, I've never seen it and most of the people who've made that claim wouldn't know the difference between a deer at 25yds over a deer at 100yds. My max range, even with a bolt action that will group under 2" is 125yds.

I set my zero at 75yds for a 20ga. Most of my shots have been inside of 50yds, only a couple have been out around 100.

thanks for the input.

i have a minox 2-10 that i can mount on it. right now i have some federal fusion 7/8oz sabot slugs.

if i draw the hunt, i'll probably replace the scope with the minox for the moment. otherwise i dotn really have much use for the slugger. i'd prefer to use my muzzleloader to the slug gun if i have the choice. on this hunt, however, its shotgun only.

i'll check out the remington solid copper slugs, thank you.

btw, midway usa is having a big sale, and some slugs are on sale as well.

I use an old 870 wingmaster with a heavy Hastings slug barrel with cantilever. Trust me when I tell you it's something you don't want to carry on deer drives. It weighs a ton with that barrel. I've had great accuracy using Winchester 3" Gold Partition slugs with a 2-7x Nikon scope. I'm able to get 1" groups at 100 yards when my shoulder allows it. It kicks like a mule and much rather shoot the 300 Wby. Fortunately for me I've had a string of success during archery season and haven't used it in 5 years (other than checking zero).

We have to use slugs (or muzzle loader) in some areas on MD's Eastern Shore.

I like Lightfield's 12ga 2 3/4" load, and they provide about 2" groups at 100yds in my cantilever barreled Mossberg. I have killed a truck load of dear with the Lightfields, from smallish does to big, big bucks from right under my stand to about 100yds. The lightfields work very well.

But if I were you I would stick with the Fusions. 1.7" @ 100yds is very good. The federal website suggest that drop from 100-120yds will be about 2.6" with that load, so a 100yd zero should be good.

All 12ga slug loads kick like mules. My elephant rifle kicks less, no kidding! A lace on comb might help reduce felt recoil and help fight the sore cheak and muzzle rise, you can order them online. Cabelas will have something.

I use a Leupold 1x4 Vari X II on my 12ga, a fixed VX II 3x on my 20ga, which I think is too much for really close range. My son uses a 1.5x5 Vari X III Leupold on his 20ga. I would want no more than 3X on the bottom end, and a fixed 2X would do the job well. Pentax offers a 2.5X that would be great. Your Minox 2x10 would sure do the job, but it is more scope than you need.

Hope this helps,

JPK

JPK, i use blackhawk cheek pieces on almost every scoped firearm i own, if i can't comfortably shoulder my weapon eyes closed, and open them to immediately see clearly through the scope, i get a pad and adjust it until i can do that. with the 870 i'm close, but that scope is such a p.o.s. its not quite perfect.

if i get into using this gun i'll look into a low power scope. it came with a 2-7x which seems ok power wise. but you're right, you dont need much with a max range of ~100y.

i won the gun in a raffle, so its the dick's sporting goods package of the slug barrel, a regular smooth barrel, and the cheap scope. i think the package retails for around $450, which is about where i normally like to start for a decent scope.

i'll check out the low power leupy's as well. i have a vxII on my muzzleloader that i really like, it seems to handle the recoil of that very well.

and yes, my 870's (slug and turkey gun) kick harder than my 375HH and 338 RUM. they are beasts!

Concerning the recoil of slug guns, like I said, I found my Rem 11-87 all the recoil I ever had need of. Being a gas-op would make it less than that 870. But, it did get me wondering something. Which was how the recoil and power of shotgun slugs in a 12 ga compare with something like the dangerous game double rifles.

I've never tried to run the figures through a recoil calculator, but it would I think be interesting to see how the slug guns compare with, say, a 450/400 or 470 NE, or maybe a 416 Rem Mag.

I did used to have this muzzleloader, a Parker-Hale .577 Civil War replica, and once loaded it with a Lyman 580 gr projectile that I molded myself and touched it off with 100 grains of Pyrodex. It demolished its target, an abandoned refrigerator motor in a trash dump. And the recoil was a big solid push compared to the Rem slug gun, which was a sharper hard slam. But otherwise they seemed comparably unpleasant.

Anyway, I just find the comparisons interesting...

Shack,
for me on the recoil....

i have an 870 3.5" turkey gun that i shoot 3.5" turkey loads out of. patterning that damn thing i punched myself in the nose every shot. i patterned it and quit shooting it, then bought a thumbhole stock for it. i havent shot it with that stock on it yet. its brutal. its a kick like a damn mule. my 375HH is a bigger push, but not a hard slap like that turkey gun. my 338 RUM is a harsher slap, but still not as painful as the turkey gun. i guess it can depend on how we're built and how we shoulder the weapons. and it seems recoil tolerance is very individual. i had a former marine shoot my 338RUM one time and bitched at me the rest of the day that his shoulder hurt. i shot most of a box that day with no problems. i think we shoulder it differently. my favorite quote from a buddy of mine that doesn't shoot much when he shot my 375..."can you ever fully prepare for that recoil?"

the slugs were hard to compare, because at the range i was shooting at, the 100y target is up on a hill. so shooting off a low bench means actually aiming up, which sucks, and puts you in a weird position.

the 2.75" slugs i shot were full bore slugs, and they actually kicked harder than my 3" saboted slugs from federal. i believe those are 7/8 oz sabot slugs. the 2 3/4" slugs were heavier, and had quite the kick.

i think my turkey gun is worse than the slug gun, but they're both pretty bad. the slug gun also wears a blackhawk cheek pad, which probably helps. and so does my 375 and 338.

the first time i ever shot the 870 with turkey loads after 3 or 4 rounds, i had a headache for the rest of the day, and my right shoulder blade hurt for a couple days. that damn thing just sucks. hopefully the thumbhole stock will help with a slightly different arm and cheek position.

i would love to shoot a big double or big bore to compare to that lightweight 870. with cheap 2.75" clay loads i've shot it one handed like a handgun (to show my wife it was easy to shoot) with no problems. but throw in the 3.5" shells and its a whole different ballgame.

My h&r 20 I use hornady sst slugs sighted 4" high at 100 and -8" at 200. 200 is the max Ill shoot with it. I prefer the monometal sabots and when I find one that shoots as good as the sst I will switch.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Concerning the recoil of slug guns, like I said, I found my Rem 11-87 all the recoil I ever had need of. Being a gas-op would make it less than that 870. But, it did get me wondering something. Which was how the recoil and power of shotgun slugs in a 12 ga compare with something like the dangerous game double rifles.

I've never tried to run the figures through a recoil calculator, but it would I think be interesting to see how the slug guns compare with, say, a 450/400 or 470 NE, or maybe a 416 Rem Mag.

Anyway, I just find the comparisons interesting...

Shack,

That's an excellent idea (recoil/power between dangerous game rifles vs. shotguns (slugs)) and was wondering if anyone has done that comparison.

I have a SxS double rifle in 458wm with which I've killed several elephants and cape buffalo. The rifle weighs 10.5lbs and I shoot 500gr and 450 grain bullets at 2135fps and 2220fps respectively. I believe the 450's kick less when the math is done, but I can't really tell a difference when shooting.

I can give you a direct comparison between that and my 7.5lb Mossberg 835 shooting the Lightfield 2 3/4" 12ga load with a 1 1/4oz, 546gr sabot slug which is almost full bore.

The elephant rifle produces just over 5,000lbs' of energy at the muzzle shooting the 500 grainers, the 835 with the Lightfields right about half that at 2549lbs' according to Lightfield.

I get a bloody nose about half the time I check the zero on the slug gun, even with a lace on cheek piece, because the muzzle rise drives my left hand into my nose (I'm left handed.) I don't get a bloody nose with the elephant rifle because there is less muzzle rise and because the stock was altered to fit me. Both stocks are about the same length at 14 7/8", so neither is short. The Mossberg has a slip on pad over the factory butt pad to make the 14 7/8" length.

I do not look forward to sighting in either gun. I use a standing bench for the double rifle, which reduces felt recoil because you rock at the hips. Sitting with either is pretty brutal.

The slug gun recoil is probably the more unpleasant since it is sharper, the elephant rifle probably recoils more, but it is more of a whole body punch rather than an in your face blow.

I can build recoil tolerance with the elephant rifle over about a month of shooting twice a week so that I can shoot between 20 and 30 rounds in a day before I need to quit. I have never tried to and don't want to build that kind of recoil tolerance with the slug gun.

Interestingly, with game in the sights the felt recoil of either gun is just enough to let you know the gun has fired. That is because your focus is on the game. With paper target, well, it is different!

I shoot 2 1/4oz 3 1/2" turkey loads out of another 835. Those loads are at least as unpleasant. I once shot one when leaning against a tree. NEVER again. It knocked the wind out of me and it HURT.

JPK

JPK,
thats an interesting comparison. may i ask where you shoot your rifles so much? is it a public range? the problem that i have found here in northern VA is the lack of ability to shoot unless i am at an indoor facility, or i have to be a member somewhere.

While waiting for JPK's response, let me add this. I looked up recoil calculators on the net, and found several. But none had shotguns listed among choices.

The thing I didn't understand about them however, you also have to add the powder charge, which would be difficult. Besides, I'm not sure without more info the charge would be helpful if you've already got the velocity - maybe for pressure curve or something? They don't seem to let you work the calculations without the powder charges in grains.

Anyway, they do ask for the obvious, gun weight, muzzle velocity and projo weight, all of which are easy to come by.

Maybe one of you guys could figure that out??

They also don't take into consideration shotguns that are gas-op, which inherently have less recoil.

The big thing appears to that cooperjd's 870 and my 11-87 are light in comparison to DG double rifles like the 450's, so that's where a lot of the rearward thrust is from in comparison terms. The guns themselves just weren't engineered with big game in mind. That's why when the conditions and legalities afford any other choice, I'd take it. Unless of course, you just want to find out what the deal is with slugs...

Shack,

They want the powder weight since recoil is determined by not only bullet weight (and velocity, rifle weight, etc.) but by total ejecta weight, and the powder charge is part of the ejecta weight, as is bullet weight, and sabot weight also in the case of shotgun sabot slug rounds.

cooperjd,

Depending on weather, what I am trying to achieve and how much time I have available, I shoot at the NRA's 50yd indoor range, free to members - and it can handle steel jacketed solids from my elephant rifles; at the Cresup Rifle Club near Frederick, MD - inexpensive, covered shooting positions and open to the public on Sundays lately, but check if you want to go, crowded prior to MD's rifle or shotgun deer season; at one of my hunting clubs near Easton, MD using one of the pond berms as a backstop or; at my other club below Cambridge, MD which has two made-for-purpose dirt backstops, one of which offers 300+yds. I keep a folding bench rest and bags at the club near Cambridge. The 300+yd range is closed from September through January to keep traffic and noise to a minimum during hunting season, but the other one, which is a little longer than 100yds, is available all year.

When developing loads for my elephant rifles I both load and shoot at my gunsmith's place in Boyce, VA, he has a 50yd set up with a bench that converts to sitting or standing. My components and dies, his press, assistance and supervision. A double rifle can be a pita to get to shoot two barrels to the same point of impact, and the ability to load a couple rounds, go shoot them and then adjust as needed is incredibly time saving and efficient. I have to do it with my 375H&H bolt rifle too to get hand loaded solids to shoot where my factory soft point load shoots.

I shoot some at Gilbert's Indoor Range in Rockville, but mostly handguns there.

Also, occasionally at a buddy's farm near Leesburg. He has a great pistol range with shooting trees and poppers, etc, and steel rifle targets to 600yds. My son and I also hunt deer there with my buddy and his son once maybe twice a season, and he has good dove, turkey, duck and goose hunting as well. I get out there with my bud maybe a half dozen times a year total, sometimes with our boys, sometime not. My bud owns the ground as an investment with a partner who is a developer, who also hunts and shoots. There will be houses in the future, but in the meantime it is a little slice of heaven about an hour from my house, and there is an old log cabin on it if the post shooting celebration has been too much fun to drive home.

There are a couple more ranges open to the public on the MD Eastern Shore, but that would be a long way for you.

Nearer you maybe would be Clark Bros - but they limit ammo to that purchased there (as does Gilbert's) and a rifle range at one of the Wildlife Mgmt areas, Phillips, iirc (but looking at the link below, that one might be closed.)

Here's a link to Cresup Rifle Club: http://www.cresaprifleclub.com/

Here are some links for places to shoot in Virginia:
http://www.myvssa.org/content/where-shoot-virginia

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/h.../sighting-in-ranges/

Hope this helps.

JPK

JPK,
thanks for all the info! i shoot at the NRA range occasionally, and have shot at clark bros. usually we drive to Gore to 'the cove' campground, and they have an outdoor 100y range. i'm working on getting access to some private dirt near I-66 that would be way closer to me. your buddy's place in leesburg sounds awesome. there are tons of deer out here in loudon co., but i do most all of my hunting on ft. belvoir. i need to find a spot in loudon, but hopefully this will be my last deer season here in va, and will be denver bound hopefully in the spring.