Can anyone tell me how they come up with the numbers for this scale. Its a little confusing to me. If you look at the 30/06 factory 180 at 2880 it falls short as an Elk , Moose caliber yet the Factory 45/70 300 at 1880 fps falls into the lion brown bear scale? And they state under any hunting condition. Now i have to say that i would never feel under gunned going for Elk or Moose with my .30/06 and if i were ever to use my 45/70 for lion or brown bear i would never choose a 300 grain factory load. What are your takes on this Thornily scale? Later Tanoose

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Can anyone tell me how they come up with the numbers for this scale. Its a little confusing to me. If you look at the 30/06 factory 180 at 2880 it falls short as an Elk , Moose caliber yet the Factory 45/70 300 at 1880 fps falls into the lion brown bear scale? And they state under any hunting condition. Now i have to say that i would never feel under gunned going for Elk or Moose with my .30/06 and if i were ever to use my 45/70 for lion or brown bear i would never choose a 300 grain factory load. What are your takes on this Thornily scale? Later Tanoose

FWIW the current (documented) penetration champion for the 45-70 (at marlin level handloads of nearly 2300fps) is the Nosler 300grain partition.

the only report I've read on the use of a 300gr partition on a Moose the bullet was found under the offside hide after breaking the humerus on the close side, but again that was a handload nearly 500fps faster.

I'm not sure I'd choose to use a handloaded 45-70 on a Lion. On a Brown bear? Sure, bigger somewhat slower (atleast less manueverable)target. would I use factory 300gr loads? No f'ing way.

On a bear I'd use an a 400gr Barnes "Original"
FNSP loaded to 1900fps and I'd think seriously about using this load on a Moose.

30-06?
A well constructed (Partition) 180gr driven to 2900fps or so? I'd expect that to make an exit hole on most target aspects of any north american herbivore as well.

a Barnes 180gr TSX or XLC at similar speeds?
It's unlikely to not make an exit hole in any North American animal unless more than one heavy bone structure is in it's penetration path
I've read of a 180gr TSX breaking the humerous going in and the femur going out
(Or was that the other way around?)
on a Moose!

Though I'd be happier on a big bear if I were carrying a 338mag or 358Mag, I think a fast 180gr would be adequate, though probably not confidence inspiring.
If I were going out with the fixed intention of killing a Kodiak bear I'd borrow my brother's 416Remington

What I find silly is people thinking they need a 200gr (or heavier) bullet in a 30-06 to kill anything other than a big bear.
or that they "need" a 180gr bullet to kill a deer when in point of fact a 165gr will kill any Elk not wearing body armor.

I think you've simply exposed a major flaw
in a system that seems to have been developed to favor bigger bullets.

If you believe all of these kill index scales that favor slow moving heavy bullets you must assume that there are thousands of deer walking around with healed over wounds from 100gr bullets fired from 6mm and .257 bore hunting rifles. and hundreds of Elk and Moose wandering around with healed over wounds from 7mm and 30caliber bullets.

AllanD