what causes instant kills. ive taken an few deer but not alot and ive seen many taken. the only ones that i have seen that drop on the spot are from shots that take out the spine.

how do some hunters have deer that never take a step and get plowed over by a shot to the heart/lung area?

is there a magic bullet or do they use some type of vodoo magic. ive used nosler and barnes bullets in 270 7mm and 06s and they run 30 to 100yrds before droping.

maybe its the deer we have up here. there big and must be harder to kill than the ones that are shot on tv.

what the key to instant kills?

Sask hunter,

Ok, here is my $.02. The key to dropping game on the spot has more to do with shot placement, than bullet type. A well placed rifle bullet or slug to the neck usually puts them down in a hurry,as well as any other spine shot. However some might argue that taking this kind of shot is somehow WRONG.
I have taken many deer with shots to the neck, most of these were by accident though, due to the many deer drives we conduct in my neck(no pun intended) of the woods.Every one of these deer dropped with a neck shot did not require a follow up shot.
I have also had good success dropping deer with hits to their shoulder. A deer that is quartering away offers a great opportunity to pass a bullet through the vitals and break the opposite shoulder.
I dont think dropping a deer on the spot is really that important though, unless there is really poor tracking conditions or the terrain dictates a need for it. There is nothing wrong with a well placed bullet or arrow to the vitals even if the deer runs off.As long as it is a quick humane kill.
Good luck!!!
Ford

Sask Hunter,

My 22-250 produces instant kills no-matter where I hit them gophers.

I killed a shitload of Sask. whitetails and I don't recall that many drop in thier tracks, instant kills from lung shots. A few but not many. A lung shot is my favorite and what I always go for and big game don't usually go far when hit there.
I stay away from shoulder and spine shots if I can help it because it ruins meat and there is always a chance of bullet failure. Even though shoulder and spine hits can produce spectacular instant kills.
What I have noticed is game that is not aware of your presence when shot in the lungs will drop on the spot or more instant. I have shot several black bears and grizzly in the lungs that were totaly unaware of me and they dropped right on the spot. Not even a kick.
I also think it has something to with the species of game as well. I have never seen a moose fall from a lung shot, on the spot. Maby others have but I haven't. Shoulder, head and spine shots I have. Not a lung shot. Yet,it has been lights out on some bears.
Shots that hit or hit near the central nervous system will produce instant kills. Solid hits in the shoulders will produce instant kills.
Shots to the head have to hit the brain to kill intantly. An asshole I worked for recently proved this. He shot a steer we were going to butcher, 6 times in the head with a 44Mag. before it fell. The 6th bullet finally hitting the brain.

When I shoot wolves with my 222Rem., I try to get a strait on, facing me shot. They drop instantly on the spot. Yet, when I shoot them broad side in the same area, they always run aways. I have noticed this with deer and caribou as well. Head on, in the chest, it's lights out.

I will be curious to hear others experiences on this.

Daryl

Da

Of the 3 instantaneous kills that I can recall, one was with a 30-06 neck shot and the next two were heart/lung shots with a 257 Wby. I know a kill's a kill but there's nothing like seeing the animal drop on the spot in terms of satisfaction.

Spine shot right behind the head! Problem is: deer has to be motionless, can you get a clean shot there, are you that good of a shot? If you can't answer yes to all of these go for a heart/lung shot. Enough wounded game is lost to poorly placed shots.

The shots I have had that were one shot drops on deer were always in the heart/lung area. As Yukoner said if they have not noticed you I think makes a big difference. I hunt most everything with my 300 wby and I think this makes a big difference as well. I hate tracking animals and I would rather increase my odds for a humane quick kill by using a big gun. I have never seen a moose drop with just one shot and haven't hunted them with anything larger than my 300. I am considering taking my 458 next month to Alaska with me for my moose/bear hunt just to try it.

BTW-Do not believe everything you see on TV. I was part of the filming for a TV show and because they could not get close enough for a shot with a sponsors muzzleloader the shot was made with a 338 and all that the viewers saw was a shot with the muzzleloader made and the Elk fall. Not my show and I was not in attendance when that was done. I did not approve of this deception for the record.

Doug

[ 07-30-2003, 17:13: Message edited by: dwhunter ]

I have taken more than a dozen saskatchewan and alberta bucks with the 7mmstw shooting 140gr bullets.Most drop on the spot with a few taking a few steps.None made it 50 yards.I have also had similar results using the 100gr ballistic tip out of the 257wby mag.

Sask-Hunter,

I think from your post that you are useing bullets that are for penetration on big game. I think the reason for instant kills on deer with heart and lung shots is the Hydrostatic shock of a high speed bullet blowing up when it hits the inside of the chest cavity ( heart and lungs). I have killed several deer with Nosler part. and Failsafe that didn't show any sign of a hit but didn't run 75 yards before falling dead. I've shot 4 or 5 others that just wilted on the spot from a lung shot with ballistic tips. I would rather have a compromise between the two like the Hornady interlock,Winchester power point plus, or Rem core-lok. I like for the deer to at least show some sign of a hit.

There is an interesting take on this subject in the latest issue of Outdoor Life. In his article Jim Carmichel describes the shooting of a bunch of cape buffalo in a culling operation in Africa.

The animals were shot and their reactions noted, the animals were then examined by some veterinarians.

The researchers found that the animals that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage.

They concluded that the bullets that killed instantly had struck just at the moment of the animals heartbeat. The massive overload of blood pressure from the heart pumping and the bullet impact at the same time ruptured the vessels in the brain.

As Carmichel questioned, how do we time a shot to hit right at the heart beat????

R F

I have only had two one shot instant kills on deer both occured seconds apart on two does, had I known I stopped the first one I would not have shot the second. I was using my Browning BAR 30-06 with speer 150 grain round nose, I do not recall the velocity but it would have been in the upper limits. Range was about 3 yards or less on a logging road in heavy pines. I had first heard them coming before I could get to a proper shooting area there was a total of 5 deer together. They where making such a racket I heard them about 15 seconds before I saw glances of them. At first I though I would get run over since the undergrowth was so thick so I backed up against a large tree and kept the rifle pointed upwards since I would not know whether they would by me on the left or right. As it turned out 3 ran by my right and I can only surmise the other two went left. The first one went by me before I could get the rifle down then the second and third cane running by and I picked up brown in the scope and shot at each. I have never experienced anything like that in my life, I saw no movements whatsoever, once the snow quite falling from the rifle blast I saw the first doe at the end of my barrel, no movement at all. As I watched this lifeless deer in front of me I noticed the second deer not 6" in front of the first equally at dead. Both where hit in the front shoulders one had an exit wound the other not. I can only imagine that smae type of excitement with a cape. leopard. elephant or something of that nature.

for ethical hunters... (excluding poison/truck hits, etc>

there's three things that kill
electrical, hydrolic, and mechanical (organ failure isn't instant)

Destory the electrical links, and the critter is taken like a bag of oats,, bang, thump. this means spine, shock, head in the case of deer

Cause catastropic loss of blood pressure, brain shutsdown instantly, again sack of oats.. but, a heart shot, and i mean rigth through it, is ~50/50 chance of drop right there or run for 30 seconds... due to nature of the pump.... if it's full of blood, the animal goes right down,... if it just contracted, the heart stops, but the brain is still functional for a bit

mechcanical.. this is usually not instant, but the critter doesnt move... low spine, hips, shoulder, etc//// this will anchor the animal, and the animal can exsanguiate, or run off. this includes organ failure, including lungs/liver

this type of shot is the nightmare, where the animal gets back up and runs... and if you push too hard to get there, can run a long while.

jeffe

In a dozen of wild hogs, which are a lot tougher than deer, I�ve observed instant kills when the bullets were placed in the neck or in the near shoulder tryng to break the offside one. Of course I use a lot of gun and a heavy bullet (375 H & H, but very common 270 grainers). Shots were mostly between 60 and 150 yards and never recovered a bullet. Severe splinting of bone was the rule.

If I have a standing shot and a good rest i'll take the neck shot every time. I'm not a big time deer slayer but have taken 7 bucks this way and none have taken a step. 2 with 7-08 and the rest with 7mm mag 139gr hand loads. I guess i'll stay with this until I miss. But, I am confident in this rifle and the groups it produces.

JM 2cents worth

That an animal will immediately loose its footing (but not necessarily die instantly) with a brain or spine shot is a "no brainer" (pardon the choice of words) .

When the game goes down immediately with a shot to the thoracic area, it is typically a result of a relatively high velocity, rapidly expanding bullet causing extensive trama to the heart and lungs and perhaps also due to hydro-shock disrupting the nervous system temporarily. Seemingly identical strikes to the thoracic area often have very different results, however, and there seems to be no way to predict them. The "brain anuerism" theory outlined in Carmichael's article seems a little far-fetched. I think those vets must have been trained at Texas A & M.

As to "anchoring" a game animal with a shot to the shoulder or other major structural component other than the spine, it just ain't gonna happen. A deer, bear, or brontosaurus can run a long, long, way on three legs (and can do it a lot faster with 75% of their lower appendages working than you can with 100% of yours). I've seen deer with an entire shoulder "shot off" run for hundreds of yards. If the shot to the shoulder also provides sufficient damage to the heart, lungs, or major blood vessels (as it typically does), then the animal will expire, but "breaking the shoulder" alone will not ensure bagging the deer, much less keep you from being eaten by a Brownie.

jim carmicheal's article in "outdoor life" is interesting and shed some real professional information. makes sense. but again--how do you time the bullet

I have had a few on deer & deer sized antelope. All were high heart, one or both lungs shots. The animal was usually quartering or head on. Calibers varied from the .338-06 to 7mm dakota. Unless you hit spine/head, I think alot has to do w/ the individual animal. My biggest bull elk took a .338/210grNP thru the heart & barely flinched. He did eventuall fall over w/o taking any steps, but I couldn't call it an instant kill. BTW, my 2nd shot missed low & broke the off leg, that's when he went down.

stonecreek has it right,
of the 12 deer I've taken with a rifle, the only instant drop in there tracks shots have hit a little higher than I meant to, destroying the lungs(both) with a 7mm mag, the heart shots have always gone a little ways. Same goes for liver shots, but I was standing next to a buddy when he shot a cow elk at about 40 yards with a 7mm Mauser and it dropped like a ton, on field dressing, there was no liver left. I always post-mortum (like everyone I suppose)the animals I kill and the more tramatic the damage the quicker they die, simple.

Most mulies that Ive dropped to the shot have been broadside just behind the shoulder with a simple speer bullet. Thats been a real effective approach for me.

The anurism theory sounds far fetched to me too, but if that is in fact what happens, then it would seem more likley to do so when the animal is "excited" and BP is up, but experience seems to suggest the oppisite.

I killed a moose that dropped instantly a few years ago. The moose was standing broadside to me. I fired my .338WM just as the moose reached for some birch leaves. The 230-grain FS broke the shoulder bone right in front of the heart, clipped the top of the heart, broke the far shoulder bone, and exited. This moose was approximately 200 yards away, and had no idea I was nearby. I forgot to keep my left eye open, so when the rifle recoiled the moose disappeared from sight. It had dropped right on the spot.

A have shot a few moose that have dropped fast, but not as fast at that one. Most of them have dropped by the time I reload the chamber for a second shot, so I haven't had the need for followup shots, except for two moose so far. I have also killed one moose with one shot using a 250-grain Nosler Partition.

Instant kills are caused by the flush of oxygen and blood to the brain causing stroke.....

But to get to the point, a fragile, explosive bullet at high velocity will give you many more instant kills than any other bullet, also more meat damaged animals and more lost animals when it doesn't work for whatever reason....If they run they seldom leave a blood trail, bleed internaly...

Better and more sure is a slower bullet such as a 180 or 200 gr 30 caliber at under 2700 FPS, less blood shot shoulder, they run a ways (from 20 to 100 yards) leave a real good blood trail and never get away with a decently placed shot..and on ocassion drop on the spot, depending on if the heart is full of blood or empty when hit...speaking in generalities.

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as an instant kill. Some animals are instantly INCAPACITATED, but if you get there quick enough many times you will see all kinds of muscle movement that cannot be written off as just reflexes. To my way of thinking, wounds kill period. Shock however incapacitates. Unfortunately, shock is very unreliable. Therefore we need bullets that preferably both shock and penetrate deeply enough to cause a mortal wound given the angle of the shot and the penetration required. Better to make sure of having enough penetration. You may not flatten them, but they won't get away.

BTW I once watched a doe shot poorly broadside at 60 yards. The hunter drilled her right through the paunch, she fell like the proverbial sack of oats. The hunter unloaded his rifle and began to approach. The doe got to her feet and ran off, hit mortally but not well enough to die quickly.

With poor bullet placement and as we found later no exit hole, the animal was lost to a falling snow covering up the sparse blood trail. I found her later that week wasted. Lessons: use enough bullet to get a pass through, shoot it in the right place, and don't ever rely on shock to KILL.

Gabe

From what I've seen written here , the ones that are hitting the shoulders and not dropping the are- 1.Either inadequate bullets used or to much velocity. As both of these will cause very sallow or no penertration -this is why I'm not a fan of "MAGMUMS" since most game animals . 2. Since penertration -into the vitals is required to get the desired results and every animal I've shot or seen shot - when this occurs it almost alway produces an instant death(maybe one or two steps or a leap). I'm not a fan of neck/spine shots but if your "that" good have a nut -to me there is just to much left to chance. I like the through the boiler room to the off shoulder shot myself and nothing I''ve shot like that has ever gone more then ten feet and that is useally down hill!!

Sask,
Last fall went back home to KY. Used my Sendero SF in 7mm RUM, Dropped a buck dead in his tracks, then later that week took a doe that took about 2 steps and fell over. My opinion it is placement as well as type caliber and type bullet. But as I have said before "Opinions are like as_holes, everybody has one".