Just wanted some of your expert opinions about the use of a Rainier 240 gr.HP lead bullet with a thin copper coating out of my .44mag for deer hunting. From what I have read, it seems that this bullet will come apart. What puzzles me is that I see postings saying lead bullets perform better on large game. So what is your opinion? Jacketed or lead for best knock down power on deer?

Thanks

[ 08-25-2002, 14:29: Message edited by: tundrarules ]

For large game in a big bore pistol like the .44 I prefer a hardcast lead SWC like a Keith style bullet or an LBT design. On Whitetails its a toss up between a JHP design and a Lead bullet. But if I were ging to use a jacketed bullet I'd want something like a Hornady XTP. The biggest obstacle most pistol rounds face is lack of penetration and using an expanding slug doesn't help you in that regard...but whitetails are fairly light boned and thin skinned so I would'nt lose too much sleep over it.
A pistol round basically acts like a punch press. That's why you shoot a pre-expanded round like a .44! Its also why you want the bullet to get as much penetration as possible...

tundrarules
As mentioned above the operative word is HARD. Jacketted bullets mostly use soft lead. Bullet casters rarely do, especially for higher velocities. We do not use pure lead, but a mixture of lead, tin, and antimony. This allows the bullets to be very hard, and can be heat treated to even harder.
You can easily scrape lead with your thumbnail, from the exposed end of most comercial jacketed bullets. You won't even scratch my cast bullets scraping lead off of them with a knife will be difficult.

Tundra - Assuming you hit them in a vital area, you will have no trouble whatsoever taking a whitetail deer with your .44. I have killed 9 of them with .357 magnum and cast bullets. My bullets, while not pure lead, were well below the current HARD CAST bullet. Even so, ALL of my bullets went completely thru each deer's chest cavity. I never recovered a single one, however much I would have LIKED to look at one of my bullets.

The "thin copper coating" you describe is just for decoration and is meaningless in the overall scheme of things.

I think for thin skinned, small boned animals like whitetail deer, we worry WAY TO MUCH about hard cast bullets until some shooters are virtually shooting AP's. (Not good)

I believe there is a tendency among many bullet casters to go from one extreme to the other. Not many years ago the fad was shooting swagged bullets which were soft as bubble gum. Today the thing is shooting bullets hard as granite chips. Neither is ideal.

IMHO, the best cast bullet is one hard enough to prevent barrel leading, yet soft enough to produce SOME expansion on impact. I have hunted with cast bullets all my life and cast bullets do not just "disentagrate" on impact. I can't recall EVER recovering a cast rifle or pistol bullet that was even broken in half. Lead tends to just sort of roll back into an oversized ball when plowing thru tissue. In other words, it behaves about like any "expanding bullet."

Point being - Not to worry, my friend. If you wish to hunt whitetail with these bullets, they will surely do the job, assuming a vital hit.
If my 357 can do it with 170 gr SWC cast bullets, your .44 will surely do it with a 240 gr. I suspect you will get some expansion and destruction to the tip of the bullet, but I'll just about guarantee you a good 150-180 grs worth of this bullet will go completely thru the animal.

[ 08-26-2002, 02:37: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

I also must report that SOFT lead bullets perform best on deer. The 6 pointer that I got last Fall,with an almost pure lead bullet,was killed as quick as any that I have ever witnessed. AND I ate right up to the hole,too.
I'm using a paper patched bullet in a 30/30.
Frank

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I will try out some of the lead bullets this year.

Sounds like most of these rounds go right through a whitetailed deer. I would like to have a bullet that exerts all of its energy into the deer instead of going through it. I think I will go with a lighter bullet than a 240gr. because a light bullet should expand faster and hit harder.

I don't shoot the hardest of hard, only wheelweights dropped in water. I have shot end to end through a 120lb doe with one of these at 30-30 factory velocities, gas checked 170gr. Dropped on the spot. Very impressive. Did the same with a 340grain 45-70. All my bullets exit, have never recovered one, so I can't tell great stories about expansion etc. But, the venison tastes good, I have not seen any sign of fragmentation, and I do eat right up to the bullet hole. Never lost a deer.

Lead projectiles ruled in the 19th century, that's for darned sure!

AD

For those who say the 44 has a lack of penetration. What are you comparing it too? I suppose its all relative to what you are use to.

I have fired 290 grain hard cast lead through 6 inch ash logs before, that should penetrate most things on this continent.

100,000 muzzle loaders can't be wrong and they all shoot PURE lead.

I've honestly lost count of the deer I have taken with a .44 Magnum pistol and 240gr Keith style cast bullets. LBT makes an outstanding bullet as well. Cast the bullets from wheelweights and I guarantee all the penetration you will need from any angle on any deer that ever walked. I usually shoot for the offside shoulder but if you put it behind the shoulder it works just as well. Typical reaction from the deer is to run about twenty-five yards and fall over dead. In my opinion there is just no need for jacketed bullets in the .44 Mag.

I cast 310gr. WFN in .44 cal from wheelweights and drop them in water for heat treating. I drive them faster out of a carbine than a handgun will and I have not recovered any that have "broken apart" because they were cast from a harder metal and not pure lead. These were recovered fron packed dirt and gravel (which is a lot more solid than a deer), and weight retention averaged at 91% for 8 shots. I even heat treat my .50 cal roundballs for my muzle loader (heaven forbid) and am pleased with the results on game. The thing is already as big as any expanded rifle bullet so I guess I'll go with toughness. I never did claim to follow the "right path" anyway.

I've used the Kieth SWC in .44 mag for deer and antelope over the years, and they killed very well. I've also killed a couple bucks with 6.5X55 with cast bullets, one with a .308 last fall, and a bull elk last fall with the same. All were wheel weight bullets, water quenched in the rifle calibers.
Any other type of bullets in your .44 (and most rifle calibers, for that matter) are a waste of money.

From my post you'll know i have no African experince,but have hunted with my rolling block in 45-120 for bear and haven't lost one yet,Load is one I copied from the Black Powder Mag.
715 grain wide flat nose cast out of wheel weight
on top of 112 grain 2f swiss black.It tends to punch right thru at less than 100 yards.

David James - Good heavens, man! With that big of a bullet, you could shoot through a Kenworth from front to back!

715gr. cast bullets??? YOU DA' Man

It started out as a joke,between my brother in law
and myself,he has this habit of coming up with LARGE caliber weapons and talking me into shooting them,{something about beening a Cop he figures i will shoot any thing}. I thought this time I would get him,like I said I got the idea from the Magazine article,called the company and order the mould,its realy for the 460 Weatherby and is suposed to be a 615 graingas check slug,but by using wheel weights and his mix of lead we have been able to keep the weight up to 715,we don't worry about the base as we use an over powder wad and a wonder wad under the base,112 grains of black is all I have work up to so far,one of my shooting buddies has an under hammer 8 bore and he has said he would rather shoot that then my 45-120,some thing about the stock angle on the rolling block,don't have a range were I can shoot pass a 100 yards,so work all loads at that range,for grins and giggles earlier this year before my thrid back surgery friend invited me to go ground hog hunting,so I took the 45-120 and my TC in 256 Winchester,we shot of the back of his deuce and a half and at the end of the day i shot one ground hog with the 45-120 at about 75 or 80 yards,the hog came off the mound about three feet and was instant stir fry.,We are trying to figure out a way right now on how to make a two part slug , giveing us a soft nose and a hard base,Ross had an article a couple of years back on it,so we are searching for now.

HI,

PECOS 45, I just am getting started to cast my own bullets as I really had no other choice.I am getting a win 86 lever in 50-110 from MR. Clay and wanted a 570 grain bullet, no one had one in that size. So I am getting a mold made by Lee, I will get between 2000-2100fps with it,that right it will.Anyway you know more about this than I do, I sent for a book by VERAL SMITH.If a person wants to stay with one load in his gun there are ways to heat treat the top area of the bullet, just place it in a tray f water and use a propane blow torch to heat the top area. It will soften up the top and it will expand, if you could explan it more to me as I am sure you know more about this than I do. Thanks,Kev

Back a bunch of years ago I had a 6 1/2" M24 Smith in .44 Special. I shot several deer with it and despite the slower than magnum Special velocities I NEVER found a bullet. I used fairly hard cast #429421 Keith bullets and never tracked anything past forty yds. I doubt if my velocity was much more than 900 fps, as I didn't have a chrono then.

I may try to take an elk this year, a whole different animal from a whitey, but I'll use basically the same setup other than a .44 Mag, 250 LBT hard cast's with the wide front meplat and a few hundred feet per second additional velocity. I'll stick to 50 yds or under and hold out for a broadside shot but I don't forsee any real problems.

FN in MT

KEV, actually I DON'T know much of anything about heat treating bullets, but there are fellows on the Cast Bullet Forum who do. Place your questions there and they'll be glad to help you. I have always just mixed up the alloy I wanted and gone with what came out.

FRANK - Your hunting experiences with cast bullets and whitetail deer exactly mirror my own.
I dropped 9 deer with my .357 rifle and NEVER found a bullet. The farthest any deer ever traveled was under 25 yds. Most went straight down like the sky fell on them. I was shooting a 170 gr SWC of pretty much straight WW.

In my experience, whitetail, at least the Texas variety, are very easy to drop. Cast bullets will do the job as fast as anything out there.

Pecos,
My entire lifetime experience with hunting Whitetails consists of ONE shot at One deer.
But the results of that one shot exceeded,by far,my expectations.I have'nt proven anything,but I do now have a lot more confidence that I can get a clean kill with a more difficult shot.
As to "why the 30/30?";why not?The top speed for a 170 grain bullet is about 2100 FPS.That just happens to be the top speed(approximatly)that a pure lead paper jacketed bullet can be fired.
I recommend to anyone,who is interested,to try the 30/30 cartridge.
Frank

Pecos,
That should read"---experience with hunting Whitetails with paper patched bullets---
sorry,
Frank