A lot of talk on 5-600 yard shots on Deer and Elk.How many have actually scoped them at that distance with there Rifle scopes.I'll tell ya there little especially Deer and Elk at 400 look pretty small at 9X.With wind etc and non-range conditions like know bench or range conditions across canyons or up and down grades in excess of 50%....Wow!!!

A very good friend of mine in North Idaho, An ex Navy Seal Snipers says...Well I won't say what he thinks of the normal man taking those shots in "The Field" or the others that didn't make sniper but thought they could be one.Can it be done...Yes...Should it be.."No"

My opinion........Jayco.

Boy lawflop thanks for the good laugh. Your last post shows what a fuckin' genius you are. The wet dream talk about what a badass you are and the law degree was really touching.

As for the six pack and the sheet of paper. Yes,they're both the same size regardless of distance. The problem is,they're easier to hit with certainty when they're in your hand. Its all that air seperating the two of you at 1000 yards that causes the problems. The problem is all you long range dipshits seem to leave out the latter problem,when telling fairy tales of shooting at long range.

I have to admit I have not read all of the recent LR posts as they tend to all melt into the same thread.



I've always had a hard time accurately determining distances, so have had a quality rangefinder for several years now. I use it a lot when afield trying to get my own rangefinding ability to improve.



Living in an area where half the population hunts or shoots exposes me to all sorts of long range hunting stories and I have written up many of them over the years.



I've made a few observations over the years.



#1 The average person can't determine even 100 yds within say a 10 or 15 yard error on either end,short or long. Much less 200 or 300 yds. So unless they have a good rangefinder most distances mentioned in stories should be suspect.



#2 The vast majority of hunters (at least the ones I have been exposed to) shouldn't shoot at ANY game animal beyond 200 yds,especially deer or antelope with their relatively small vital area. Few truly know where their rifles impact at ranges beyond 50 or 100 yds, much less at 200 or 400 yds.



#3 When it all comes down to putting a shot on PAPER at ranges over 200 yds I have seen VERY few hunters who can keep shots on a standard 8 1/2 x 11 inch piece of copy paper,much less in a specific zone on that paper. Talking about ANY field position of their choice,bipod,over a pack,etc.



#4 I have a 10" steel plate at both 200 yds and another at 320 yds. Even off my stable benchrest few can consistently connect with the 320 yd plate,yet those same shooters go on and on about their 400 and 500 yd shots ???? Even the 200 yd plate despite being ten years old is relatively unscathed considering the amount of lead thats slung at it.



#5 The average hunter really doesn't know the anatomy (location of heart/lungs) of deer and elk as well as they should.



#6 The average hunter wounds an animal or more each year. Especially the "LR afficianados", who can't hit at 200 yds but will shoot at 400 yds.

Many never even follow up on shots unless the animal drops within sight. Hell most want to roadhunt and seldom get out of the pickup anyway.



#7 There IS a small minority of all hunters who really are competant shooters and can pull off 300-400 yd shots with regularity. And a small portion can even consistently hit at even longer ranges. These skills require good equipment, good record keeping, long hours of practice and quality ammunition. Few people have the commitment or the expertise to ever become truly competant. My rant is NOT aimed at those of YOU in this small percentage.



#8 Many shooters/hunters feel that by merely owning the proper gear alone gives you the ability to pull off LR shots. I've found this to not be so.



#9 The many of you out there who are the clueless,unethical,lawless, with NO regard for your quarry I SO wish You would sell your guns and take up yachting,golf,chess, or any other pastime that I care nothing about.



#10 I tend to rant by the end of each big game season as I see so many slobs and idiots afield that it truly does get to me.



FN in MT

A point not made is that if one hits an animal and it gets away some hunter might not even know it or follow up. So it's easy for some to blast away.

On a recent hunt in Vermont for deer and black bear we talked with some hunters the second day. We found out that three bucks had been shot at opening day and none had been hit! The area is all steep hills with hardwood forest so the distances might have been from short range to maybe as long as 150 yds at the most. This is "hunting accuracy" in Vermont!

Of course from a rest one can make long kills. Maybe the ones who don't have a good experiance stop posting?

I've only scoped one big game animal at over 500 yards, and this was a Coues deer in Mexico that I did indeed shoot and kill at that distance, simply because there was no way to get closer, and I had the right set of circumstances at hand to shoot with confidence. That was the only big game animal that I've ever killed or shot at at over 400 yds., and I've only taken a very few at the 400 yd. mark. I've never shot an elk at over 200 yds.



I go out of my way NOT to shoot at big game animals at extra-long distances, and I'll stalk closer every time if I can. Last weekend, I had the chance to shoot at a bedded elk at about 200 yds., but instead of pressing the trigger took an extra hour to stalk to within 100 yds. for a better, more sure shot, and this strategy worked as planned.



In this crummy, lousy age of the so called "tactical" rifle, hellbender Ultra-Gag cartridges, and varmint-type scopes it's become too easy and too tempting to turn into a self-styled sniper instead of a hunter.



My opinion only, take it for what it's worth........



AD

Frank, as usual, you listed a great many truths in your post, many of which I've observed myself over the years. Sometimes the up-close, in-your-face situations are a whole lot harder to deal with than LR situations.



There's a big difference between being a good "paper" shooter and a good field shooter, and I can't tell you how many times I've see skilled paper guys undergo a meltdown in the face of a 'High-Noon' hunting situation. Come up against a shooting opportunity at an animal you've waited five years to draw a tag for, or else an animal you've paid big money to hunt, or else an animal that can kill you if you don't iron him out on the spot and you'll soon see exactly where the bear shits in the woods with most paper-punchers.



Coolness in the presence of game is, in my opinion, a much greater part of good field marksmanship than "benchrest accuracy", ultra-fast cartridges, or sophisticated range-finding scopes. Keeping your shirt on and doing the job when it counts is a skill that simply cannot be purchased in the form of equipment with any amount of money, nor can it be learned with any amount of practice time at the range. It only comes from solid experience in the field, and from your own ability to work within yourself to manage your actions when it's time to press the trigger, and to select proper gear that works well under field situations -- not just "range situations" back home.



There are deeply experienced guys I know with simple .30-06 rifles with 4X scopes on top who I'd bet on every time to make a critical shot when it counts under pressure in the field, versus a large percentage of the high-tech, self-styled LR guys I've seen.



I recently watched a video of a buffalo hunt. The client had the most in appropriate buffalo rifle I've ever seen, complete with a big, high-magnification scope (tactical knobs included!), etc. I'm surprised that his PH let him use it at all. When it came time to finish the buffalo this hunter had wounded, said client threw up the rifle, brought it down, then changed his mind about the whole affair and ran in the opposite direction, leaving the PH to finish the job with his double -- an act which made me sick. I'm sure that rifle of his was hell on paper, but what big scope wasn't worth a shit up close on cape buffalo, as I'm sure he found out when he brought the rifle up.



Theoretical accuracy makes my ass ache at times........



AD

John A,

I had intended to put quotes around "Long Range Afficianado's" , as I meant the clowns who shoot away at double and triple the range they SHOULD be shooting at. Didn't mean it to include the few true LR guys who CAN pull off such shots.

And as far as the huge amount of wounded game; maybe its a local phenomenon then. But on the Ranch I hunt and my local area we have a lot of wounded game each year that generally have to be shot later or are lost. As a State Cop we have Warden powers as well and many of us assist the FWP Wardens as best we can. We also are in contact with the local Ranchers who will inform you of how the season went,game killed or found later,etc. Believe me a lot of deer and elk are lost each year. Like you mentioned a lot of it to LR "flock shooting" or plain poor placement at even close range.

Alan,

You also hit on a point I forgot to mention. The "Buck/Bull FEVER" factor. That contributes to a lot of misses and poor shots as well.
Can You tell I had a poor season with a lot of slobs???

FN in MT

35Whelen

I have a few recovered bullets, they're scattered about the house in various junk piles but I did find these two.



(Before any flames start, note that I now limit my big game animal shot limit to 650 yards. This IS NOT due to missing or wounding, it's a compromise I agreed to years ago.)

Bullet performance is certainly a consideration and at times a bit of a worry. If I travel to a hunting area where close shots are possible I sometimes bring rounds loaded with "premium" bullets. I have a few 308 Win rounds loaded with the coated Barnes (Smurf Killers) and some with Partitions. I rarely travel to a hunt without at least 2 rifles and once again I'm often prepared for close shots on game at unknown presentation angles.

The fear/complaint that someone will get the latest greatest gear and give it (shooting at game at long range) a try without some background knowledge and practice is of course valid. There is some "safety" built into the system (as mentioned in the Boddington article) and that is that it's not easy for a unpracticed shooter to hit anything at long range.

Here's a snippet from the Boddington article:

"Again, it's the same story: A miss is the really good news. At very long range, the average shooter who hasn't spent a lot of time shooting at distance will probably miss. On the other hand, the shooter who has done the homework--knows the distance, knows the trajectory, understands wind drift and has the accuracy required--will probably not miss by much. Which means a wounded animal."

There's not a proficiency requirement when buying rifles and equipment, it's up to the shooter, their peers and perhaps a mentor to monitor the use.

DKIng,



That Nolser exhibits IMPRESSIVE terminal ballistic bullet performance for a 900+ yard range! The Matchkings I used long ago never performed that well!!

Jayco,

I have shot exactly one elk at 672 lasered yards. Used a Nosler 180gr Partition, he ran off with the bullet in him. We lost the blood trail in about 200 yards, it was VERY spotty and quickly ceased to exist. Did not have dogs to track him with.

I have shot deer at ranges to just under 1/2 mile (sound impressive, eh). Range was ~ 830 yards. Used 190 gr Matchkings, in a 30-06, with a 24X scope (it as a variable I think it was 8 to 24, cannot remember it has been about 20 years). That particular rifle was HIGHLY modified for target useage. Shots were made from bagged rests on truck hoods and/or tractors. I shot approximately 25 deer that way, they were shot for crop destruction, NOT hunting purposes. The most I shot at one time, was three does all standing beside each other. They just stood there while I took them out, one, two, and then three. The first one feel over a few seconds after the second one was hit. The range was 600ish (cannot remember for sure but I can show you in the field).

Another point and one which directly impacts why so many long range shooters use Matchkings. The premium bullets, for the most part, have ROTTEN ballistic coefficients. This means the ride the wind, aka DRIFT ALOT! Not a good situation for long range shooting. Therefore, the need for ballistically tweaked bullets, aka HIGH BALLISTIC COEFFICIENTS. Of course since many of the high ballistic coefficient bullets are more fragile due to the nature of there design, which is what makes them more ballistic friendly (empty cavity point in the case of a MK, polymer tip in the case of SST and Nosler BT, these feature are there for aerodynamic stability but weaken the bullet significantly) therefore, placement becomes MUCH more critical as one must attempt to miss heavy bone which will tend to fragment the bullet and end penetration.

LAWCOP, I have to agree with your comments about the definite difference between military and law enforcement snipers. There is a BIG difference, that is certain.

One more comment. Twenty years ago I lived out west and could shot 2500 yards if I desired from my back door. I routinely shot at 500 yards ( 100 round per week on average ). I haven't done that kinda shooting in about 20 years, and my confidence at making such long shots is much lower now than then. However, if one has practiced shooting at these ranges, they can be rather easy to make, if conditions are properly read and acceptable in the first place. There is considerably more set-up / preparation time required though, YOU AIN'T GONNA SNAP SHOOT AT 500+ YARDS.

Finally, as my arrogant arse learned the hard way (I say arrogant because I KNEW BETTER BUT DIDN'T HEED MYSELF). Elk are tough! Even a well placed round may not bring one down quickly. Blood trails can be minute to non-existent, and often are, meaning that if they don't drop very shortly after the shot the animal can easily be lost due to the time necessary to traverse the range to target and commence the tracking.

To me long range shooting speaks to one's arrogance, at least it did with me. I had been taught to stalk, but I was SUCH AN EXCELLENT SHOT, I had to show off my skills and took long shots. To this very day, I have family and acquaintance that will not hunt with me because of this behaviour. I would have thought the jealously would have worn off by now! As an example, five years ago I took a head on 150 yard shot at a bedded down doe with my 12 gauge (3" Remington 1 oz slug). I laid the shotgun across the hood of the pick-up and let her rip. The slug went to the right (her left) by about 5". I know this as my spotter saw where it struck a tree behind the doe. I was razzed for days about it. HOW COULD I THE GREAT RIFLEMAN MISS!!! Found out later that my scope had been knocked off, I misses another doe the next morning but at a range of only 50 yards, another front on shot, this time I saw exactly where it hit behind here, I fired another round and that is when I discovered the problem. That was the last deer I had a shot at though. Due to my rash of missing, I was placed on running duty for the remainder of our hunting. Jealous bastards!

Should there be maximum allowable ranges and rifleman proficiency exams implemented into regulations and applications for licenses? I think strong arguments could be made both ways. I see LOTS of bad shots at 25 yards, let alone 500.

ASS_CLOWN

LAWCOP Wrote:

Quote:

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BY the way this "friends" statement is one of the more condescending I have seen in a while..

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Here is another for you that you as an ex-prosecuter/Cop can check out.

A very good friend of mine(One of my best) I grew up with since the 1'st grade was the prosecuter or part of the team on the Claude Dallas trial who now lives in North Idaho.Nampa Idaho was the place but I guess you already new that.

"By the Way" check it out as I certainly don't want to be condensending in any way.Just a hint....CA.

The dumb old logger.....Jayco.

LAWCOP,

I am not picking a fight so please keep that in mind with your response.

Quote:

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A hunter IS a hunter. THe length of shot taken has no bearing on that

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Just where does stalking come in to the equation, with regard to a hunter's skill? I was taught to stalk, basically by archers, that would not make a shot on deer that exceeded 60 yards or so (that was their 500 yard shot if you will). To me it is far easier to shoot a deer at 600 yards than it is to stalk within 30 yards of one standing in the middle of 500 acre hay field. Anyway, just interested in your thoughts/experiences on stalking.

One other question that my curiosity is begging me to ask, how many head of big game (elk and moose, not deer) have you taken at long range? Related question, ever have any of these big game animals not go down with the shot or within a very few steps (say less than 5 steps)?

I have known some BP shooters (all cartridge rifles mind you) that regularly drill 18" targets at 600 yards, and they use open sights!

ASS_CLOWN

WOW...That sounds like Elk hunting in Idaho like I have never seen.Lots of time-A steady rest-adjust and fire in the hole...Bang ..Dead Elk at 600...Still a learnin...

Jayco.

To me an Elk at 500 looks about like a deer at 250. Of course Elk do weigh about 3 times what an Oklahoma Deer does.
My longest shot on a deer is 205 yards (with a muzzleloader).
My longest shot on Elk is 536yds.
Both were 1 shot kills........DJ

Lawcop-Hey...I like the Pic.You look like my wifes brother at our wedding in Yellowpine Idaho.He road with that bad group of bikers from California.Nice guy though and I loved his friends.One heck of a party after...I think the toughest thing for me was my wife doing undercover and my worries about the derilicks she was with.

The subject-I onceagain agree with Allen Day and his opinion.Shooting paper from a rest or range conditions is quite different than huffing and puffing up and down some steep mountains then seeing game at 600 yards.Where's the solid rest as there not always there and to some the adrenalin flows.I'm sure there are some who can over come the adrenalin rush and the huffin and puffin and get semi-steady butt....There should be every effort made to close the distance to a point where wind deflection the percent of the grade sometimes in excess of 50% and a much closer shot if possible.Know animal is worth the "Chance" of being wounded from a way to far shot from any Thunderboomer Mag and an over confident shooter from the range.

Oh well..To each his own.....

Good luck......Jayco.