On a tangent from the "POACHER JUST MISSED ME!!!!!!" thread... out of curiosity, at what point would you absolutely, positively, return fire at someone while you were out hunting? Would you tolerate "close misses" from ricochets and, if not, why?

In the other thread, some valid points were made as to why "not" to shoot -- but when would you? What circumstances would make you knowingly accept all the legal crap that would come your way afterward?

Let's keep this to the fact that you would shoot to kill. Warning shots just piss people off and escalate things from "questionable" to "committed." I was raised not to point a gun at anyone I didn't intend to shoot, and not to shoot at someone unless I meant to kill them.

So, in a "hunting" situation, at what point would you return fire?

Russ

If I was being shot at my first reaction would be to yell and hit the ground and look for cover.If the shooting continued I would shoot a round in the air hoping they would hear it.If at that point the shooting continued ,I would have to assume that they were now aware that I was a human and really wanted to kill me.At that point I would return fire with the intent of protecting myself by eliminating the shooter.

It depends if I could leave the area safely. If I could, I would, because I have no desire to go to court to try to prove that some guy was actually trying to shoot me, and not just popping off rounds for fun.

If I couldn't leave, i'd do something similar to stubblejumper. The bullets would have to be landing fairly close to me to convince me that he was actually shooting AT me. I wouldn't respond to just the sound of gunfire, of course.

I'd find a hole and crawl in it, zing one or two over his head if I had too, I don't want to kill another human being for being stupid...If I ever thought for a minute that he was an assailant then I would kill him.

Stubblejumper has it right. Shots landing within a few yards at most and you fire a warning shot in the air after you take cover. When a person knows they are shooting at another human, then it becomes self-defence. Damn the paperwork....the guys trying to kill you!

I'd pop smoke and call in an air strike on him.

A couple of years ago I was walking in an open field heading back to the truck. I happened to look up and at about 75 yards away up a hill there was some guy looking at me through his scope. I yelled at him and had already started to take my gun off my shoulder, but it would of been too late cause he could of shot me. Was I ever pissed and told him so. Definatley not a nice feeling.

I would use every avenue at my disposal for escape and or cover. Hopefully, the shots are not intentional and would eventually stop. If I felt they were intentional (I'm not sure how I could tell) I would unload my Partitions and replace them with Match Kings. I'd be so mad I would want to wound him real bad to make him suffer, not kill him.

I'll go along with Ray, try to escape and evade,untill I sure their trying to kill me.And then they are dead!I came home with extra holes from some very serious people who didn't like me,and I do not any more from stupid people!

I've been there and been sprayed with richochets and near misses. My response has always been to send the same message. Just how close my near misses were depended on just how pissed off I got.

Sadly, one of the worst instances of this I was ever forced to endure happened when I was in highschool and I was hunting with my brother's father-in-law and his son and a sleazy asshole who CLAIMED to be a friend of my brother's father-in law.

The four of us were hunting New Mexico jackrabbits by walking line abreast up a wide ravine. I had an M1 carbine, the asshole had an M-1 carbine and Mr. X had a carbine as well. I don't recall what my friend was carrying...but the hunt was basically an M-1 carbine VS jackrabbit hunt.

There were lots of rabbits in fairly heavy cover but the hunting was good. Suddenly Mr. Asshole says he will volunteer "to go back and get the car and pick us up a mile up the ravine so we don't have to walk back."

Hmmmmmmmm, I thought. This good deed didn't sound like the Mr. Asshole I had come to hate.

Turns out what the asshole actually did was get the car, race up ahead and sit high on the edge of the ravine so we could DRIVE THE RABBITS INTO HIM.

From the time we got within 1/4 mile of him, the rabbits were moving out well ahead of us and he started firing. He was using cast bullets which richochet like rubber balls and for our last quarter of a mile hike we were all too busy dodging bullets to worry about hunting. It was practically raining carbine bullets on us.

How one of us kept from catching a .30 caliber bullet that day amazes me. I have seldom wanted to shoot a SOB so badly in my life. Mr. X never said a word about it, but I don't think we ever hunted with the bastard again. And Burr Stout, if you're still alive and reading this, you're an ASSHOLE.

There. I've been wanting to say that for over 40 years. As a dumb highschool kid I had to keep my mouth shut that day but I never forgot it.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear in my first post but I was giving a response based on the shots striking very near me so I knew that I was the intended target.I wouldn't want to kill another human being but if they haven't stopped shooting after I have yelled and shot a warning shot I am going to assume that for some reason they really do want to kill me.Whether it be that they think I will turn them in for poaching or any other reason I will do what is necessary to protect my own life.

Any fool I would catch using his scope to look at me, rather than binocs, would definitely be a target. Any one doing this is an irresponsible fool, and is not to be trusted not to shoot. I'm not going to let him have a chance of deciding I'm an elk.

All I have to say on this is to all of you who say shoot back is I hope you well like being bubba's girl freind in the big house. Unless you could prove that they knew you where there and were actual trying to kill you if you shot and kill or wounded one of them on purpose you are going away. No more hunting no more guns just a sore butt after bubba gets done with you. I have investagated why to many shootings to know better. It might be ok to talk big but in the real world you would go to jail.

p dog shooter-Better to go to court than to to be killed by an idiot shooting at you.As we all have stated returning fire would be a last resort when you are at the point where you are fearing for your life.As I also stated earlierI would only return fire after seeing bullets impact around me.The bullet strikes would provide evidence that I was being fired upon repeatedly and that I had reason to believe my life was in danger.I also live in a rural area so if I was charged the jury would be made up of locals not gun hating city people.

An old classmate of mine went out in the middle of nowhere one afternoon to sight in his 264 Win Mag. After setting up his target and shooting a few rounds, a bush near him suddenly exploded.

He looked around and wondered, "What the hell?" There was a house about 300 yds away with a pick-up parked in front of it. Just as he saw a muzzle flash coming from behind the truck another bush near him exploded.

This was state owned, open range my friend was shooting on and he could legally do it whether the guy in the house liked it or not. He was firing in the OPPOSITE direction to the house. Apparently the resident just wanted to have some "fun" or considered himself lord and master of all he surveyed.

Whatever...he picked the wrong boy. (I know the guy!) My old classmate calmly sat down, put his crosshairs on the windshield of the pickup and squeezed. After HIS bullet took out the front and rear windshield of the shooters pick-up, he said the guy suddenly stood up, and daintily holding his rifle by the barrel out in front of him as if it were a dead snake...he quickly walked to his house.

Not wanting things to escalate further, my friend loaded up his vehicle and left. On his way back to town he said he saw a sheriff's car racing out toward the place but nothing ever came of the incident. No questions asked.

Either the nut at the house didn't have any license number or description of my classmate's vehicle or after he told the deputies what happened they told him he got what he deserved, I don't know.

My point is that once a bullet comes snapping by your head or between your legs....whatever it was you were doing suddenly seems unimportant and you have urgent business elsewhere. You don't stop to question the caliber, velocity or make of the bullet either. They all sound pretty much the same.

Anyone still shooting at you after you have sent them this little "message" is either crazy or sure enough out to do you harm for whatever reason.

Just out of curiosity...How many bullets does everyone carry with them when they go hunting. In my younger days, I used to look like a Mexican bandit with all the bullets I carried. Now that I'm old and lazy, I rarely pack a dozen and sometimes just a magazine full.

Is waiting for some fool to run out of bullets an option? Or course he might save just ONE for you.

I suppose how I might react would also depend on what sort of cover I have to hide behind. Slim to none and you obviously don't have all day to play around.

If available, cover first, and then fire a shot in the air to let the other shooter know you are there, on the assumption that he does not. After that, I would evaluate the situation as it develops.

Just because someone is shooting in your direction, anyone suggesting that you should immediately shoot to kill ranks right in there with the stupidity of BBBBBBBBB.....Brother....I can't write the name.....

If you had reason to believe that they were actually trying to kill you, then the situation is immediately different. But, in actual fact, in most cases, you will be dead, so your response will be muted.

As far as the guy who is going to shoot a man looking at your through his scope, well, no doubt it is dumb and dangerous, but I wouldn't like my chances if he could shoot, and saw you getting your rifle ready and starting to point in his direction, all the while watching you do this through his crosshairs.

I'd guess it's pretty hard to convince a judge and jury you were in fear for your life and were defending yourself if you were hundreds of yards away and can escape the danger without firing back.

What I did (and yes this has happened to me) was to:

• Hit the ground and get behind some cover.
• Yelled out that they had just shot at me.
• Listened to the curse and apology.
• Located him.
• Aimed and waited.
• He left.

I strongly believe that hunter deaths by other hunters (not self inflicted) are due to 2 things.

• They can't see you.
• They can see you and they just want to kill something

This excludes the people who are just stupid, like the guy whose dog shot him, the guy who shoots his son by pulling the shotgun out from behind the truck seat with his finger on the trigger, etc.
Those that can't see you are damn glad they now know where you are and would have suffered any embarrassment to avoid shooting somebody. Those that took one shot are very likely to take another.

It seems to me that if you follow this protocol and he shoots again, you are likely legally justified shooting the so-and-so. However, real life might intrude in the form of a self-promoting DA, liberal jury, etc. One must always be prepared to accept the consequences of ones actions. Remember, too, that most people don't hunt alone. If you are, who do you think his friends will believe was in the wrong? Whose side will their testimony help or hurt?

Sometimes sliding down into a creek bottom and simply getting out of there is the best way to deal with the situation.

I would not "return" fire until it was clear they had seen and identified me as a human and were still shooting. Then it becomes a clear case of self defense and in this case, lethal force would be justified by Montana law. Until that point I would seek cover, make all the human noises I could, and depending on the situation, maybe fire a shot in a direction such that it was apparent I was not shooting at them.

Many, many years ago I experiences two rounds of what I think was buck shot being fired into the tree behind me just above my head. I remember it as clearly as if it were this morning!

I hit the deck, and fired one round of 30-06 into the base of a large tree about 30 degrees to the left of the line I believe the incoming shots had travelled.

A few seconds after the echos of my round cleared ... this voice came down the hill ... "Sorry, didn't see you."

Never saw the clown again and was never sorry that I didn't.

Checked the tree I shot. My projectile didn't make it completely through it ... as I had hoped it would not.

Very, very scary.

Have been "scoped" a couple of times since. Always makes me sweat while I'm trying to find a place to hide. I guess I'm not brave.

Terrain dictates.
It is really hard to explain the sound and feeling of a bullet nearly missing you. The almost slow motion sight of the ground at your feet exploiding and the crack of the muzzle that soon follows. There are ALOT of things running through your mind. I can tell you, anger, fear, and uncertainty are a few of them. But the ability to think clearly, make a sound choice and remove yourself from harms way is the most important thing you can do.

At the point you turn from taking cover to zeroing in on the shooter you are no longer in a defensive position. Explain to a judge that you stalking your target, and then taking him down was an act of self defense.

I am not saying that in some case that this action is not justified, but at that point, you are dealing with a criminal, not a hunter who thought he seen a big buck! And that my freinds, is a different matter!

We can look at what has been posted in this thread, from all angles, but I think that there are few here that CAN give an honest awnser to the question. IMHO

[ 11-11-2002, 21:42: Message edited by: JAG ]

I freind and I were grouse hunting when this grouse starts flying towards following by shoot gun blasts. after throwing my friend and myself to the ground we started to yell. We got an anwser back. We got up and walked over to the other hunter and his two daughters A guy I went to school with both partys dressed with blaze orange on neither saw one or the other. Very thick woods and brush. No to start shooting back unless the guy is intentionaly trying to kill you is the wrong reponse.
'''''''''''''stubblejumper you well not find a stronger advocate to proper selfdefense then me. Nor would I feel bad about sending you off to be bubbas girl friend if you were not justified.

p dog shooter-The scary part about going to court is that many innocent people have gone to prison because DA's and police have manipulated evidence and witnesses to get a conviction or close a case in order to further their career.

This is a little offtopic but here itgoes anyways.

I was driving down a country road at night taking my girlfriend home. Up ahead an on coming car put his bright lights on then proceded to drive in my lane. The on coming car was still aways away so I had time to start slowing down an started pulling over to what little shoulder there was. The more I pulled over, the more this car came at me to the point where I had to hit the ditch. I was some f'n mad.
At that time I always carried a rifle with me(for shootin coyotes). I grabbed my rifle and jumped out of my truck and I was going to put a round through the back of the speeding car. At that point my girl started screaming.
I feel very fortunate that she was with me that night. It would have been a big mistake to shoot that car. I was alot younger then and had a little to much piss and vineger for my own good.

Daryl

Gentelmen, I have been legally armed for most of my life, and thank God, I have averted many sittuations that could have become a "BAD DAY AT BLACKROCK" if I had not been armed. These, however, were in the city, and on the highways of the state.

I had an experience back in the mid fifties, while hunting in Alomo Canyon, in the Sacrimento Mts of New Mexico. I was a newly wed, and it was my first hunt after coming home from being stationed in Korea,after the war was over. I was hunting with my new wife, and a high school buddy of mine. I was walking about 1/3 the way up on the sunny side of the canyon bottom, and My wife, and buddy were walking the ridge on the other side of the canyon, because my wife didn't have the right shoes to work the bottom with me. I was in the sun, and this asshole was sitting in the shade about 1/3rd the way down on the shady side, by a large rock. As I walked through the mansanita bush, in clear view of this creten, he fired at me, hitting a large limb on a small tree, about two feet away from me, and between us, spreying me with bark from the limb. I hit the deck without thinking, and shutteled behind the tree trunk, when another one whissed passed me. I leveled my rifle on him, and was about to fire when my wife screamed, and my buddy yelled above this guy,causeing him to look at them. It was clear this joker thought I was alone, but when he heard my wife, and buddy, he stood up and began yelling he had thought I was a deer. My buddy had yelled at ME, because he knew I was about to roll this asshole off that hill. My buddy took this guy's rifle, a Mod 94 30-30, away, and kicked all his ammo out of it into the weeds. Then told him he better get his butt out of there before I climed that canyon wall. He ran abou fifty yds to his pickup, and sped out of the country, before I got to the top of that ridge. When telling the wardens at the check station about it, they, said he had come through the check point, but had said nothing. They told us they knew this guy, and he was a problem, and had been in a lot of trouble in Las Cruses, where he lived. The guy was a mental case from the conflict in Korea, that had been cought shooting at cars with a pellet rifle, and fined, but nothing was done about this happening, because we had no proof, but they told us we were probably lucky, he missed the first shot!

I'm glad, today, I didn't have to shoot this guy, but he was deffinetly in jeperdy,that day, I can assure you!

[ 11-11-2002, 22:52: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Macd37-What would have happened if the guy that shot at you had killed someone else later?The authorities would have probably denied that you ever told them of this incident so they wouldn't be blamed for doing nothing about the guy.

[ 11-11-2002, 23:36: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I can't remember the source or the exact location (Ohio or somewhere near maybe), but a few years back there was a guy out "hunting" hunters. Seems like he killed a few too. I don't remember any more details, maybe someone else does.

A number of years ago I used to hunt in Western Virginia, near Deerfield Valley. I had chosen a nice spot behind an oak with good view of a saddle where the deer popped over from the next valley, to drop into the valley I was overlooking. This oak was fairly exposed to the next ridge, but off and above overlooking the deer trail in the saddle. I had a great spot, the large oak formed it's own ledge/flat spot on the uphill side, just perfect for standing and sitting. The laurel was sparce above me and around me so I had a good hide with lots of terrain to observe.
I was wearing an orange hat and wore an orange vest to the stand. When I got to the stand I took off the vest and placed around the tree. The vest was noisey when it was cold and I figured it would be more visable in all directions
around the tree. I stood so that I could lean around the tree from time to time to look into the valley/draw and still keep my eye on the saddle.
Shortly after sunrise, the valley is to my east, roughly, the saddle is above and to my westerly. The sun is lighting me and my tree up.
I lean around the tree to glass the valley, wearing my orange hat and my head near the orange vest and a bullet impacts the tree, then I hear the shot. I dropped down and behind the tree. Put hat on stick and wave it around the tree and begin to yell, another bullet hits the tree. I wave hat on other side of the tree another bullet hits the tree.
That's three shots and as much as I would have preferred I can not retire uphill or downhill, there's no cover other then the tree I'm behind. I can't see where the shots are coming from other then from across the valley, a couple hundred yards or so, maybe 75 to 100 feet below me in the shade. My ridge is considerably higher then the other.
I hunt with a 45-70 bolt gun, fairly stout loads, I put a round in the chamber and fire a shot up the valley at a tree on my side of the valley to get the fellows attention. Another bullet hits the tree.
I begin to fire shots into any spot across the valley that looks like it may hold a hunter. After ten rounds I cease firing and stay in place and wait. After 30 minutes I wave my hat again and no shots. I wait another 30 minutes wave the hat and no shots. I moved uphill to the closest cover and no shots. I stay in the cover and drop over the ridge and head back to camp.
I have no idea who did the shooting nor for what reason.
There were four holes in that orange vest.
Jim

Recono,
I have no Idea.

It could have been a few punks that had too much to drink. Who knows.

If I would have put a bullet through the back of that car I could possibly have killed someones kid who was hanging out with the wrong crowd.

I have seen some young people do some pretty stupid things.

I know I did my share but nothing quite like that.

Here's a question . . . How close to the rounds have to be coming to you and with what sort of regularity for you to "reasonably" assume that someone wants to kill you. Whether they WANT to kill you or not it only takes about one round after I have yelled and waved for me to start returning fire. I agree with Ray that we shouldn't be quick to take a human life because of their stupidity BUT neither should we become stupid in our vain attempts to avoid a legal battle.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

High school days, rabbit hunting with a friend of a few years and a rabbit runs directly inbetween us. Young and not exactly a fountian of wisdom, my buddies shots begin getting a little too close for comfort. But I know this guy and I also know that he is not stupid right? But he keeps on shooting! and I remember feeling like his shot land on either side of me and one right between the legs. By the time I realize that my "old friend" has no qualms about endangering my life the deed has already been done. I chewed his butt about it but it was a VERY unnerving feeling, still to this day when I recall it, it makes me imagine having a bullet rip through my flesh.. No damn fun at all!

There was no cover at all, I was at his mercy. Returning fire was even a strong consideration then but Im afraid that I would have been shot before I would have resorted to that. I am of the mindset that I wont aim a gun at a person unless I mean to kill them, things would have to be pretty bleak before I would go that route but I would certianly not hesitate if cirumstances were enough to justify it.

In an ever growing populus this is a justified and serious question and some of the replies here make me believe that perhaps it should see more attention.

To All,
I would rather be tried by twelve,than carried by six. That said,Hell yes I would return fire.
45nut

This topic gets a little more frightening with each post. Most of us have been thru some hairy incidents.

I suspect the bottom line here is it doesn't matter what we say...because we don't really know what we will do next time the lead starts flying. 99.9% of the time it is just a fool and if we can hug the ground for 2 or 3 rounds it will be over. The best option may be to locate the nut and after he's figured out you aren't a pronghorn antelope or that 12 pt buck he's been dreaming about...then you can walk up to him, smile sweetly and buttstroke his dumb ass in the face. Except I worry about teeth marks on my stock. A kick in the groin would convey the same message, I guess, and then take his rifle, remove the bolt and sling the rest as far down the mountain as it will fly.

There is no shortage of idiots and a lot of them come out from under their rocks at hunting time.

When I wrote about the poacher missing me , it brought back the memories of fear and adrenline. After reading all of your posts here it makes me realize just how many idiots there are out there walking around just wanting to shoot something.
If this should ever happen to me again, I hope that I will be able to evade and egress the situation, and then hunt the perp down, and if possible put to the ground with with my fists, feet or gun butt. Then when I feel that I have control, empty his weapons, all of his weapons. Then take his wallet,license number and my new rifles, pistols, knives, etc., then flatten his tires. Then if he is conscious, Tell him he's the lucky one this time as I'm walking off to my vehicle. Then report him....anonomously.
Remember I now know where he lives.

Well, this is what I would like to think that I would do, who knows?