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Does hunting stop being hunting? This was in a thread that was under discussion down in the Long Range Forum area, and I felt it would serve its purpose better in the topic area. I see and can appreciate the discipline, effort and expense involved in developing the firearms being used, aquiring the skills and ability to hit stuff at the extended ranges. The part I have negative feelings about, is that every video I have watched where animals were being shot at, at the 600 to 1000 yard plus ranges, appears to be more of a military operation than an actual hunting situation. With all the folks involved, spotting and other associated activities, and the animal being so far away that it is totally unaware what of is going on. Don't the animals themselves deserve a tad more respect than what they are getting? What real difference is there between shooting a deer at a timed feeder 100 yards away from an enclosed blind, and shooting an antelope 900+ yards away feeding on sage or in an alfalfa field? Even the rocks don't last forever. | ||
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The difference is nothing and everything... Recurve vs. Iron sighted 30-30 Iron sighted 30-30 vs 300 WM with a 3x9 300 WM 3x9 vs a 338 Lupua 6.5x20 Corn feeder vs planting a food plot to attract deer on your property. It's all a continuum and everybody gets to make their own judgement of what is acceptable or not Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Perhaps the muzzle loader hunters turn their noses at centerfire rifle hunters because of the, (to them,) extended and un necessary distances involved in shooting, to them maybe a lack of "hunting". Maybe the bow hunters turn their noses at both of the above for much the same reason and even the long bow hunters distain the compound bow hunters for,...... | |||
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Hunting stops being hunting when hunted in an enclosed area. Shooting a long distance doesnt take away from the hunt. If the hunter has the skills to take game from a long distance, so be it. | |||
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when you go out without the intention of enjoying the process leading up to the harvest | |||
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When the only way the success of the hunt is measured is by the number of inches of bone growing out of an animals head. It seems that many people are getting away from the special intrinsic values of the hunting experience and are completely wrapped up in how big the animal is. This turns it competetive. | |||
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All good points. Some I agree with, such as the competiveness being brought into a "Sport" that really should not be treated in that manner. Some I view differently like the references as to choice of equipment, much of that aspect I view as elitism, especially when many folks are introducing new technology into the equipment they use such as "muzzleloader's" capable of killing accuracy at several hundred yards, when the original premise for establishing seasons fo the use of "primitive weapons" was because of their limited effective ranges. Same with folks that regularly practice and hunt with compound bows at ranges of 60 or 70 yards or greater, same as folks wanting to hunt with handguns during the special seasons, yet the handgun of their choice is chambered for a traditional rifle caliber. Those are just personal choices using technology that while I may not agree with them, don't really bother me. Long Range shooting, when the target is not a game animal, is something that while I am not all that interested in, I have no issue with. Being A Texan, even though I go out and set in one and my job is taking care of them, I consider setting in an enclosed blind/stand watching a timed feeder waiting for a deer or hog to come out as just shooting, no actual hunting involved. I view long range hunting of game animals in the same way, to me it is not really hunting but shooting. My attitudes toward hunting inside high fenced properties are fairly middle of the road, and feel that unless someone has actually experienced it from both sides of the coin, they really have no basis in fact for an opinion. I have hunted a few, two were of the wrong kind one was sickening and I left after a couple of hours the other was better but not enough to make me want to go there again. The others were managed properly with animal numbers well within the carrying capacity of the range and the only way you knew you were inside a high fence was when we drove in or out of the property during the hunt period. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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If you enjoy however you pursue game,who gives a rats ass what anyone else thinks????  | |||
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If you don't EAT it, Don't shoot it. | |||
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There is nothing wrong with hunting. There are endless problems with many hunters. | |||
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This has nothing to do with anything being wrong with hunting, this has to do with ethical hunting methods. Many people feel that hunting deer from a stand watching a feeder is unethical and not what should be considered Fair Chase hunting. Many people feel that hunting anything inside a high fencesd property, regardless of the acreage involved is unethical and not what should be considered Fair Chase. I have done both and while I do consider hunting fron a stand over bait, as not hunting in its truest form, but just basically shooting, and that hunting inside a high fence depends on a myriad of factors as to its relationship to Fair chase hunting. I am merely asking where, long range 600 yards and over, shooting at game animals falls in the concept of Fair Chase hunting. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It doesn't. I can understand the need for the occasional long shot if one can't get closer but these long range guys seem to make no attempt to get close instead purposely trying to make the shots as long as possible. Seems everyone is a wannabee special forces sniper these days. | |||
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if you have practiced and have enough "history" (read practice) with your firearm to the point you have reduced the human error portion of the shot as much as possible. misses and woundings can happen from the barrel to the bull with any weapon, at whatever yardage. my thoughts are, hunting is the searching for and finding of the animal, after that its all shooting.... ethics come into play when you don't do EVERYTHING humanly possible to ensure a clean kill. i have and will again shot at game in excess of 500 yds, but i will add that recorded in my shooting log are a total of 1485 shots out of the first barrel and another 185ish out of the 2nd barrel on my elk rifle. i bought the rifle in 2002 and put a new barrel on it in dec of 2009. being capable of a 600 yd shot doesn't make it an ethics issue. knowing when to try the shot per conditions and your abilities involves ethics. knowing when not to involves ethics. knowing whether you and your gear are capable of being a long range hunter/shooter involves pratice and common sense. if you can't hit the target in practice you don't need to be shooting at game, if you are out there without the practice required than you have a lack of ethics. | |||
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Good response ravenr, those are all good points that everyone should consider regardles the range, equipment being used or animal hunted. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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CHC, I'm kind of at a lose for words on this one. It seems so easy to answer for those who regularly shoot at 700-1000 yards. If I were to shoot at 2000 yards, which I do for kicks with a .50BMG, and I were able to hit a desert mule deer out that far is it OK just because I made the shot? I've shot long out of situational necessity, we all take risky shots hunting on occasion. But to do it as a matter of course, to me defies being a sportsman and opens new doors of should we? Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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After all the verbalization over the picture of the young lion and its possible negative effects, I can't keep from wondering as to how long it will before someone makes a mistake that the press gets hold of during one of these long range shooting situations. I am already seeing and hearing comments from people that will not spend the time or have the dedication to become proficient with their equipment, and will not take the time to even consider any of the parameters that ravenr listed in his post. They just know that they watched a show or read an article about someone shooting a ___________ at 992 yards, and they are sure that they can do the same thing. I can see having to take a 500 or even 600 yard shot under extraordinary circumstances, but even then the stuff ravenr mentioned has to be considered. To go out and buy a long range rifle scope, put together a long range rifle, breed the two together, and go out with the misguided idea that all they have to do is spot an animal and they will kill it on the spot, no matter how far away it is, is flat wrong. I can see shooting at extended ranges to see how accurate a rifle is or how well the shooter can concentrate, or busting clay targets mounted on a board at 1000 yards, or killing coyotes or prairie dogs at 700 or 800 yards or father as being an interesting, possibly enjoyable sport, although I have never had the desire to shoot prairie dogs at any range. But when it comes to Big Game animals and the respect we should be showing them, other hunters and ourselves, to me, something is just not right about setting and acting like a military sniper. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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makes it all about the shot,not the critter runs the other way for me "i got my elk" not, i killed my elk with a 600yd shot. i want to be capable of making a 600+ yd shot not known for the same. these off the store shelf long rangers are a blight and a fad. | |||
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I'll take an ass kickin for this but here goes, There are sportsman and then there are "gear" guys. Meaning This long ranger pursuit is all about the equipment....not the quarry. Archers....(many, not all) are the same, it's more about the equipment and not the hunt. Fly fisherman, yep IMHO same, it's about the art of it not the fishing (equipment). Not trying to paint with too broad of a brush as there are of course exceptions to all rules but in my international travels these are very consistent attitudes within these groups. I once tried to organize a float trip to fish on the snake river in Moose Wy. The guide asked me what my gear was, I told him heck I think its a shimano rod and a Garcia reel.....dead silence....ah...ah...we dddon't really fish that way.....I said fine ....you keep the boat straight and I'll fish.....more silence. Business be damned, flyfishing only. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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So you eat Prairie rats????  | |||
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I have only one thing to say about ultra long range shooting of game TIME OF FLIGHT Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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Bingo! I could not agree more!  | |||
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Yep, this is an ethical problem. Deep set in the American psyche is the poison that money, ie buying equipment, is the solution. We, as hunters, guides, writers, anyone with a bit of influence on others must undertake the Herculean task of instilling a sence of ethic on those predisposed to have none. That said, I hunt whitetails in the Montana equivalant of timed feeder, grain fields. The shots are generally 350 to 450 yards, 200 is a "gimmie" and anything under 100 a fluke. I have a rifle that I use for this hunting or shooting if you feel that way. A custom 270 with a 27.5" heavy barrel and a 10X mil-dot scope. I can hit clay bird at 550 every shot IF I get the wind right. Humm, that takes practice and time and money and that leaves you knowing when your skill and rifle are not up to the shot. I saw a very nice buck last year at 550 and a bit, he just didn't give me the shot a wanted. Could I have killed him? Maybe, but I KNOW that a squirrely 5 to 15 mph wind at that range will assure nothing, maybe this year it will be different. Ethics. If I meet a fellow that professes to shoot long range at deer and antelope I ask him where he shoots PD's. Oh, punching paper is good, but if you can't hit a squirrel at 550 most of the time on a windy day, when it's scooting around, how do you expect to hit a deer? CLEANLY. Black Rifles: What does that have to do with long range shooting? DEAMONIZATION of the machine. Next it will be SNIPER rifles. Hey, what the hell do you need a rifle that accurate for unless you intend to murder some politicans? Grandpa did find with an iron sighted 30-30 that held a 4 inch group at 100 yds. Why do you need a more accurate rifle than that unless you intend to fement socital chaos? Shall we ban scope over 10X? 6X? 4X? Scopes period? Barrels over 24inches? 22? 20? How about heavy barrels? Triggers capable of being set below 2 pounds? 4? 10? How about those bi-pod things? PURE EVIL, only SNIPERS use those. Ban them too. Slipery slope boys. Think I'm kidding? Try asking someone in California about BS regulations intended to eliminate gun ownership period. | |||
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I'd rather kill my critter after a lot of long range practice and getting to know my gun than shoot a fenced animal any day. I don't care how big of a fenced area it is! You could also ask if food plots are o.k as well and if trail cameras are too much of an advantage couldn't we? | |||
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In that case you shouldn't hunt at all. There are oceans surrounding the continent on which you hunt. Might as well be a fence. | |||
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how about this... Don't try to impose 'your' ethics on anyone else. I'll hunt my way, you hunt yours. end of story. NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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You can go to giant ranches in South Texas with no high fence, pay $7000, sit in a blind over food plots with your guide, and pick and choose which monster buck you are going to shoot. Is that hunting? | |||
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At one point in time I would have agreed with you, but this is the 21st. century. Not only are hunters a minority, but public opinion of hunting in general has declined a lot over the past 20 years. Our long voiced claims about being the ultimate conservationists thru our hunting have been falling on deaf ears for a few years now. We are getting attacked from various directions and one of hose directions that divide hunters as a group involves ethics. Just because someone shoots something in a legal manner does not mean it is the proper thing to do in the overall scheme of the future of hunting. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Exactly. Well said. However: This begs the question of "what" the "proper" thing is and more importantly "who" will say what is and is not allowable. We as hunters must be extremely careful not to totally loose control of this debate. Something that is very easy to do if we begin supporting weapons restrictions that micro-manage how people hunt. Before you demonize black rifles, or sniper rifles, and deem those weapons and those that use them as un-ethical keep in mind that PETA and the rest of the lunatic, eco-nazis, Progressive Left out there are waiting like vultures in the trees. Don't forge the weapon that your enemies would use to beat you to death. So, what do you do? Let some ass with no training and scant knowledge of ballistics run-a-muck? Sad to say: Yes. The problem would be addressed in higher qualifications for hunting licensure. Several weeks of hunter end with a shoot test would weed out a lot of idiots, it would also discourage a huge percentage of causual once a year hunters that provide not just funding but a voting block bulkward against the eco-nazi jackasses so eager to see hunting and firearms ownership gone forever. Sometimes to prevent a great evil one must tolerate a lesser one. | |||
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Ok, for all you jackasses that have already chimed in - listen up! (Ok, now that I have your attention, please know that I think of only a few of you as true jackasses - the rest of you are just mules  - don't take that to heart, OK?!)Hunting today is not about technology, at least not directly. The fair chase hunting ethic hinges on a single question: "Is is possible for the animal to detect the hunter?" If the answer is "no", then I think we are no longer talking about hunting. Notice - I didn't write "will the animal detect the hunter?" Every good big game hunter seeks to be undetected - even when still hunting. But if there's no possibility for the game to have a chance to detect the hunter - smell, hearing, sight - if the hunter is setting up from 600 yards off or futher, that pretty much eliminates any chance for the game to stand a fair chance & rely on its own senses. Good thread - and don't take my intro too seriously!  friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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Soooo, if a bowhunter is hunting from a tree stand, using a cover sent, wearing full camo is that "unethical"? And then we have that giant can of scorpions, someone sitting up over a feeding station. Isn't all this techno-driven? Have you looked at a Cabela's archery catalog lately? If the game can't detect you at 100 yards is that also "not ethical"? What about 250? 400? When exactly does game have a "chance" as you put it to detect the hunter? I've had deer almost step on me while sitting still in plain sight? Is it unfair because that deer was a dolt? I've had antelope spot me at over a mile, so is a 1000 yard shot ok? You want to hunt naked with a sharp stick?* How do you intend to enforce your code of ethics with those whose opinion as to "fair" differs from yours? Equipment restrictions? How? *I can make a good arguement as to why this is un-ethical too. | |||
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If what you describe were the only way to hunt deer.....I'd quit. I don't know where to draw the line but common sense should intervene.....for example, the idiot on "The One" with the digital ranging scope turns my stomach......nobody wants to watch a clown go to a very "target-rich environment" and then kill a monster with some high-tech nonsense. Not saying I hunt DG with a knife, but c'mon now.....let's keep it sporting. | |||
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Do you see this long range, camo fashion, gear driven hunting style in Europe? I have not. Wonder why? | |||
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The cover sented camoflaged bowhunter still needs to be quiet and still... The antelope hunter pitted against 1000 yard vision does well to use terrain to his advantage... Moose can hear you at long range too... And most big game - especially whitetail & elk -CAN smell you at 400 yards if you don't pay attention to the wind. But 600 yards; 800 yards; 1000 yards? At this range it becomes a question of how well you can shoot, how well you've prepared your equipment, and how long the animal stands still... Shooting over feeding stations? Now we're not talking about firearms/weapons, but most will agree this removes the "hunting" element. You may have a different point of view - and you're entitled to it. Just don't expect others to subscribe to it! friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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I have a couple of reservations about the whole long range hunting thing. First off, I don't agree with the "shoot prairie dogs and coyotes at extreme range, then consider shooting deer" thing. Either you have respect for your game an expect a clean kill or not. "Live target practice" is somewhat repugnant to me. If you want to shoot prairie dogs, fine. Stay within your range limitations. Get good on paper first, then shoot them at ranges where your bullet is unlikely to expand. Secondly, what is the purpose of shooting an animal at 600+ yards? Get your game? OK. Brag about the distance you shot said game at? No. The guys who are filming their extreme range shot who don't film their regular shooting are proving its all an ego trip. Too many guys say when asked about an extreme range shot "I did it to prove I could!" Sorry, you are just trying to show off. No different than the guy who pays for some mutant elk fed steroids with a 500-ish score in a pen is showing off his wallet. Then there is my biggest bugaboo about the whole thing. Most people are not honest with themselves. If you are honest about it and even if you have control over the circumstances, I suspect many long range guys are able to hit deer vitals sized targets MUCH less often than they claim. I have seen some long range "sniper" hunters shoot at an animal, and claim that it was missed without going over and looking at the spot to see if there is blood, or worse, not knowing where they were and not looking at all. (it was great fun telling one guy that his deer was 200 yards further on down, leading him to it, and pointing out that he had just smacked a spike, and telling him that if he didn't put his tag on it right then, I was calling the game warden... I could tell he just wanted to walk on by and claim a "miss") So, while I can't say any one long range hunter should be kicked out, I can statistically say probably 8-9 out of 10 should be, and the 1 out of 10 who shouldn't usually does not take that kind of shot because he put the same kind of effort it takes to get that good with a rifle into getting that good at the rest of his hunting skills and almost never needs the shooting part, and further doesn't care if anyone knows that he can hit at extreme range. | |||
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I have no issue with long range hunters if they mastered the art and KNOW their limits. I think a lot of deer get wounded by people that have the rifle, scope, equipment but not the SKILL to pull it off on a consistent basis. | |||
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Soooo, you feel that a group of people driving their vehicles to a location, piling out with all sorts of gear, dressed in everyday street clothes and shooting something at 800 to 1000 yards is ethical hunting? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That happens at normal ranges with once a year hunters. Since we can not regulate stupidity, why give these folks more opportunities to give those of us that do try and be ethical sportsmen a blakc eye. As some one else mentioned, do you force hunters to take proficiency tests? They do in European countries. How well do you think that idea would go over here in America? Who will be given the authority to go around and check individual hunters ability to hit a target at "X" yards? How is shooting at game at extended ranges any different than the computer hunting idea? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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How does the concept of sport fit into all of this long range crap? | |||
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it's a challenge. that's why they do it. americans are programed to always strive to achieve something new. some get tired of shooting whitetails from tree stands and take up long range hunting. some, like myself, go the other direction, forgoing the gun for a bow, then perhaps a recurve, then maybe a bow they made themselves or a pistol. it's the thrill of doing something difficult. and we've already established it isn't illegal, so why are we worrying about this? because of the bunny huggers getting upset? guess what, they already are! they don't care if you shot the deer at 1000 yards or 10, they dont want you to shoot the deer at all. unless established by law or vast majority consensus (shots over XX yards forbidden in your hunting camp), ethics are a highly personal subject. some people are turned on by pregnancy porn... perhaps you find it ethically repugnant. that's fine for both parties. it's legal for them to view and no one is forcing you to check it out. same with long range shooting. dont like it, dont do it. imposing your ethics on someone who isn't breaking the law and is ethically happy with their behavior is just pissing up a rope. having healthy discussions about these type of activities is great, as long as we all realize the chance of reversing someones ethics is highly unlikely. are we having fun yet? heath NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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I have purposely alerted game to my presence to get it to stand still and look at me many times. Usually it's at close range too. I don't consider it particularly sporting or "ethical hunting", I almost always do it when I intend to kill a deer at close range and intend to shoot it in the head. When they see (or hear) something move that's not in the place they'd expect to see a man and it doesn't move like a man they stop, stand stock still and stare. If they are out beyond fifty yards, they are virtually never aware of my presence and I shoot them in the chest. I have never killed one out at really long range, but I have the skill and equipment to do it if I have a mind to. I fail to see the difference between a deer wholly unaware of me at 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards or 500 or more yards. If I am certain of my shot and I have the deer positioned like I want it and completely unaware of my presence, what more can I ask? Ifr I am more capable at 400 yards than anyone I hunt with is at 100 yards does that imply a difference in ethics? How would that work? | |||
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