Has anyone had what they consider a "failure" with Premium bullets????

Manufacturing glitch, or ??

My biggest concern, is whether the Premiums will expand at 30.06 velocities.
Let's hear your experiences.

I haven't had any "failures" with premiums, but will list the criteria I use when selecting a bullet:

The species to be hunted. The shot's I plan to make on the animal. The range I plan to take the shots. The muzzle velocity I expect to have.

Everything is a compromise, with a given muzzle velocity and bullet weight, you have to copromise the diameter of the wound channel with the depth.

The advantage the "premiums" have is deeper penetration. To put this to use, you can either take a light caliber against large/heavy game. The other tact is, if you are after the typical species for a given caliber, you use a ligther then normal bullet of "premium" construction, you still get the needed penetration, but the trajectory is flatter, and you get a higher impact velocity.

Define premium construction. I once put a barnes x to the test by shooting a 300 pound feral hog in his left hip as he was going away, the large bone deflected the bullet enough that it exited out the opposite side through the guts. 140 grain at 2700 fps (7x57) Bullet failure?

A grey area to be sure Rick.

By premium let's say....., oh Barnes X, Swift A-Frame or Scirocco, TBBC, Partition.

I've never had a Nosler partition fail to perform as advertised. I've never had any premium bullet do that, guess that is why I use them! In time, I might finally have one cross me up but the odds are against it. Regular tin foil jacketed bullets have failed me so I no longer use them. I just can't afford to take the chance.

The only "failure" I had with a partition was with a 150 gr. 7mm rem mag it blew a softball sized hole out the back side! But hey it killed the deer dead in its tracks. I just like eating the deer too much to clean up blood shot meat. Thats why I use the x bullets.

Johnny, I use Barnes X for whitetails and have not had any problems. I load some partition for a buddy and also no problems.
Whitetails are fairly easy to kill though and this might not help you out. My hunting buddies and I load whatever is most accurate in our whitetail rifles usually Barnes X, Partition, Hornady and some Sierra.

This past year my buddy shot a whitetail in Alberta Ca. with his .308 and 130 grain Barnes XBT's the shot was 275 yards. The whitetail dropped in his tracks. His hunting partner had problems with the magazine in his rifle and used the .308 from then on and shot a whitetail at 100 yards and that deer went only 15 feet from the point of impact and dropped dead. These deer where in the 200 lb.+ range.
What are you planning to kill? This will help in deciding what bullet to use.------Chainsaw

My wife had three 180 Gr. Partition out of 30-06 go right through a moose in 2000 with no expansion. The same thing happened to a friend in Canada about 10 years ago; the bullet was recovered from a tree and looked new except for rifling. I had a 200 X from a 35 Whelen go right through the chest cavity of a big bull elk; it didn't open up whatsoever. The bullet was found in the offside leg. The bull went down from the broken leg. Personally I think Swifts A-Frames expand very reliably; however, they don't seem to penetrate as well as I'd like on larger animals.

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JD

I have not personally experienced a premium bullet failure, but here is what I have heard of:

375 H&H Federal Premium with Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solids, shot a cape buffalo in the nose and the bullet lodged in his jaw bone. It appeared to be a squib load, penetrating a full 8".

Barnes X, various calibers, came out the same side they went in! Several stories of this. It seems that when a Barnes X upsets, it is very unstable. Maybe the bullets his twigs first, or the barrel twist was wrong for the bullet or whatever. Another failure of Barnes X is that I can't get them to shoot.

Woodleigh Weldcores, if driven too fast for their design specs will turn inside out like a badmitton birdie.

Nosler partitions will always lose their front core and 1/3 of their weight (almost always).

The partition is the bullet I have the most experience with and I have been very pleased with their performance in a variety of calibers. Don't worry about them performing at less than magmum velocities. I have used them in both 30-06 and .270 with excellent results on Whitetail through Elk. In my opinion, considering the cost and effort that goes into a hunting trip you can't afford not to use a premium bullet.

I have used Partitions and Barnes X bullets in 338 and 375, and I have used Partitions and Ballistic Tips in 257, never had a failure on deer elk or bear. I have loaded partitions for buddies 308 and 30-06 used for deer and elk, never had a failure there either. In my opinion, premium bullets are one of those cases where you really do get what you pay for. Shoot what you want.

When I shoot an animal, I shoot it so that the bullet path will do lethal damage in and of itself. I don't rely on any sort of after entry disruption or explosion or kinetic engery doing the job for me. I use partitions and Grand Slams interchangably depending on the rifles preference. The Grand Slam will sometimes act like a solid at close range on a small deer sized animal. (max velocity 3000fps) But then, a heavy for calibre solid thru the heart is going to leave behind a very dead animal.

We may be able to use a lighter bullet for a certain caliber. But we still can only fool physics to a certain degree.There is still no subsutite for mass to create momentum in penetration. The trick is to find the correct weight and velocity where we dont sacrifice tragectory and penetration.

Happy Hunting

Johnny Ringo, it is difficult to make broad generalizations about the performance of "premiums" so I will attempt to make smaller generalizations about specific designs.

Older premium bullets like the Speer Grand Slam and Nosler Partition share design and metallurgy with most conventional bullets. They have hard alloy jackets and hard alloy cores. What makes them "premium" is the partition in Nosler's case and the use of two hot poured cores in the case of the Speer design. Between the two, I am more impressed with the Partition, which is remakably consistent and will definitely expand at `06 velocities (down to around 1900 fps in fact, which is a pretty good lower limit by any measure).

The bonded core premiums like Trophy Bonded, Bitteroot, Swift, North Fork, etc. have very heavy but tapered jackets made of pure copper or else a very soft alloy. The lead cores are usually pure lead. They usually open up at roughly the same velocities as conventional bullets, meaning between 2000 and 2200 fps depending on the design. North Froks open up down to at least 1800 fps (some go to 1500 fps). Some particular brands do not open up well. I won't name names because I have seen only a few examples but the smaller outfits seemingly don't test their bullets for this. If they get high weight retention and big expanded diameters at 150 yards they think all is well. These may fail to perform well at 300 yards where the velocity is 2300 fps or less. Take a look at the June 1998 issue of Handloader for a hint.

Last are the monolithic construction bullets. The Barnes X-Bullet is advertised to expand down to 1900 fps or even less in some designs. From what I've seen that is a veritable claim. I think GS Custom bullets will behave similarly. I don't know about other types on the low end of the velocity spectrum.

So in general it isn't hardness that makes bullet a premium. It can be any of several things that help hold it together, including very low hardness. Some conventional bullet manufacturers have tried high hardness to make premium bullets and the result, from my observations, is inconsistency of performance and a high threshold for non-expansion. Everything said here has probably got at least one exception because similarity of design does not guarantee similar performance.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 02-06-2002).]

Harald, FYI, Speer has changed it's manufacturing of the Grand Slam, and it is no longer dual core, IIRC. HTH, Dutch.

Thanks, Dutch. I had not heard that. In that case I think it is probably no better than a Hornady Interlock (which costs a lot less).

Harald, we'll have to see how they work. I forgive them anyway, since they are offering the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. With the hot-core for the standard cals, that covers all the game out there. Dutch.

I had a 6 shot Impala kill that I have posted on this site before with a 7 Rem and the 160 Aframe. All the rounds went through the heart and/or lungs, the exit and entry holes were so small the animal lost very little blood.

Lesson learned, if you shoot light game with bonded bullets be sure to hit the shoulder.

I have killed a number of Boar in South America over the course of the last couple years with the Hornady Interlock, Partition and XC Bullet. All of the animals were at least 250 pounds, with the average weight being over 300. I found the Interlock to work as well if not better then both of the 'premium' bullets.

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www.rifleshooter.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 02-07-2002).]

A few years back I saw two bullets that failed to expand as I will explain below. I have decided not to tell the brand of bullet, because in my view the problem will happen to any bullet under the right conditions.

Both bullets were retrieved from moose. One was a 180-grain bullet shot within 150 yards with a .300 Weatherby. The other was a 225-grain bullet shot within 150 yards or so with a .338 WM.

I noticed that both bullets were dented on the side near the front by the ogive. The dents were large enough to cause the bullets to bend to one side, and was probably the result of hitting bone. My hunting partners and I concluded that the bullets could not expand because they didn't hit bone straight on. Both of these bullets hit shoulder bones, but not with their respective tips or "head-on."

In my view, any pointed bullet that for some reason hits a round shaped bone with the nose's side (by the ogive), could esily be deflected at an angle and fail to expand. As you may know, expansion will take place when the nose hits something head-on.

Even so there may be a great number of times times when bullets fail to expand and still kill the animals. We can see those bullets we retrieve from game, but how about those that zip right through? I have only retrieved one 230-grain FS from moose, and all the others have plowed right through.

So our definition of premium breaks down to any bullet that costs more than 25 cents apiece. It appears that "controlled" expanding bullets with some mechanical gimick are what is considered premium. Well If the performance of the ballistic tip is what your looking for then it is a premium bullet to you. One should use a bullet that works with the shot placement you like to use. If slamming bones to test your bullets is your thing then get a tough bullet, if you make neck or rib shots practically any bullet will fill the bill for you but "standard" bullets will probably make for quicker kills. When I consider all the bullets I have shot at game and can only come up with what I truly consider bullet failure twice then the average bullet does quite well.

I went on a Bison hunt last year with a friend who used a Browning Semi Auto 30-06, I advised him to get WW 180Grain Fail Safes for this hunt. I had used handloaded 300 Failsafes in my 375 H&H on a moose hunt a couple of years ago and was impressed with the performance. 150 yd 45 angle complete penetration down in its tracks one shot. The buffalo he shot was of similar size approx 1300- 1400 lbs. Shot at 70 yards, 5 shots from broadside to maybe 30 degree angle, no knock downs but a cumalative TKO. This animal was probably at least 40 or so inches in width and all bullets did complete penetration. From what I have read this is what this bullet was designed for. I have read a report which showed that this particular bullet had the deepest penetration of several premium bullets. This is both good and bad, if you need that type of penetration then great. How it works is it is a hollow point that peals back like a banana and then sheds these pedal leaving a solid bullet to complete the penetration.

[This message has been edited by raamw (edited 02-08-2002).]

About everything has been said,except if you are blowing the front off of your Nosler, and it bothers you then use the next weight up...I was blowing some fronts off the 180's with my hot loaded 300 H&H so I went to the 200 and now I get nice mushrooms..That is the way the Nosler is designed...I does kill well when the front explodes and they allways expand to some degree even with heavy bullets on lighter game. Noslers are a little soft up front and thats a plus I think.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray in AK, is it possible that those two bullets entered the animal in a slightly yawed state from striking a twig? I saw an incredible keyhole entrance in 10 or 15 yards from a 200 gr .308 X-Bullet at 2700 fps. It also did not expand, though it did kill very well.

Ray in Alaska, unless those bullets did hit with a yaw, they should surely have expanded. But even then, the flesh they plowed through should have expanded them. My definition of a premium bullet would be one that always expands nicely even at low velocities and yet retains enough shank at high velocity to penetrate deeply. A partitioned bullet with a soft nose would fit that definition.

My take on the premiums is, use them if you can afford them, if you can't take your chances with failure, in the Magnum rifles. Standard rifles shoot anything you want except match bullets. My top pick is North Fork, super accurate in all the sizes I have shot, as tough as Swift A-Frame, the two of them being second only to Barnes in toughness. Next Nosler Partition or Gold, and Barnes or XLC, whichever shoots best in my rifle. Next Swift A-Frame, very tough but for me not as accurate as North Fork, Nosler and Barnes. I will shoot at an animal only with a premium bullet that will give me a one hole group in the best of conditions. If you say a premium is not as accurate as a standard bullet you have not shot enough with the premiums, if you are a reloader. If you don't reload you are restricted to the factory stuff that today is very good, but costly if you are seeking the right bullet for your rifle and shoot it enough to find it. Good shooting.

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Barnes X bullets failed in my .270, they failed to give decent accuracy so I dumped them.

I will accept accuracy of 1.5 inches from a hunting bullet. From my 7x57 The Barnes bullet shot that well for ten shots then groups opened up a little. This bullet need a really clean bore. I have had more trouble getting the partition to group acceptably than anything else.

I was shooting a LRT 140grn out of my 280AI at 3150fps. I shot a mule deer at 340 yards, in the chest. The bullet went completely through the length of the deer and exited above the tail. The deer was still standing, so I put another round threw the lungs which put him down but not dead. Dressing the deer out, it was apparent that the bullets did not expand. Maybe I did not have enough velocity. To bad, this bullet was the most accurate bullet I have ever fired in this gun and was so flat shooting it compared to a 300 magnum.

Frank,

What is an LRT bullet?

Lost River Technologies

I have yet to find a bullet that will reliably hit the target, even when I get real close. I believe they are all defective in that regard

The bottom line is all bullets will fail from time to time under adverse conditions, but the premium will fail much less than a conventional bullet....except for the Hawks and BarnesX, bullets I personally do not care for, as I have had many failures with both..Others have had good luck with them, but thats what makes a horserace.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Interesting posts, personally I like to use NP's for hunting any game because I trust them, in any and all circumstances.
A bullet is the least expensive component of any hunt I have ever been on, yet it is the one component I completly rely on. I can't see the advantage of saving a few cents on a bullet when you may compromise the results of a hunting trip.

Tom

Bullets rarely fail if used at the right range and velocity. Tough bullets up close and not so tough ones for longrange use, if you don't believe in pass through shots.

If you think two holes bleed better than one, use one that almost always exits, and maybe in a little larger caliber for the bigger hole.

Here's a couple good ones,

416wby 400gr Swift with at 200yds= 365gr recovered in far side under skin through mainly meat taking part of the shoulder blade was a picture perfect mushroom, not missing the front 3rd either.

Same load at 640yds took both front shoulders out and exited compleatly.

Same gun with 400XLC at 50 feet, nearly severed the head with complete penitration this year.

All were large moose.

Either load will discourage large bear up close, that's a fact about these two bullets in my gun.

In my opinion, a premium bonded is good for the first hundred yards, after that use the most accurate bullet/load, your confidence in the load will make more of a differance now.

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Brent