Here's a nice debatable topic. I myself am a fan of shoulder shots, or even slightly in front of the shoulder. I'm also a fan of mass production bullets like Gamekings, and Speer boatails. I don't think "controled expantion" bullets are all they're cracked up to be. Give me a bullet through a shoulder and recovered under the hide on the off side. That's perfect shot placement for me. ~lokey

loKey,
Firstly, welcome to the Forum!
Assuming the hit location through the shoulder, yes, many bullets will perform satisfactorily. I think you will find, over time, that the controlled expansion premiums will provide more consistent results when shot presentation is not as ideal as that of your example.

I only use shoulder shots on moose that I wouldn't want to go far ( like in a SWAMP ) I prefer a nice clean lung shot, no wasted meat, animal seldom goes as far as 100yds, & leaves a good blood trail, also bullet does not need to exit for blood trail. I know I'll get replys from this statement but I see no reason for fancy bullets, I've found Rem core lock or Hornady SP to be excellent preforming bullets. I'm not talking dangerous game here either.

Forgive me, but I don't see how you can be a fan of shoulder shots, particularly on elk (?), and yet maintain that premium bullets are not all that they're cracked up to be.

I prefer shoulder shots myself, and while you can get by with standard bullets for game animals the size of most deer for this sort of shot placement much of the time, I don't think it's good practice on elk, moose, etc.

Without exception, the worst bullet performances I've ever seen have been on elk that were shot in the shoulder with standard Speer and Sierra bullets. Even Hornady bullets will not necessarily hold together if the jacket develops a verticle split that extends past the cannelure.

AD

On deer, even big mulies, I prefer to use small caliber, light for caliber, fast opening bullets (my favorite is .25-06 with 100 gr NBTs) and punch 'em thru the lungs just behind the shoulder. Best is a little low, where it takes off the aorta from the heart and destroys the lungs. They hit the ground pronto.

Anything bigger, especially elk, I like to use controlled expansion bullets (Speer Grand Slam in my -06) and break the shoulder. I don't want to have to chase an elk to the bottom of a canyon (Done that). That shot usually anchors them pretty good, yet sometimes, they travel a couple hundred yards anyway.

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Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

I PREFER shoulder shots and hope to hit the heart/lungs and preferably break a shoulder/leg bone on the way in or out. I also prefer two holes in an animal--entry AND exit...
However, perfect broadside shots don't always present themselves under hunting conditions. There are other humane and equally effective shots...frontal, quartering to and away, neck, and rear end shots. But these shots require quality bullets that can penetrate bone and other obstacles...sometimes for the entire length of the animal.
Thats why I use Partitions. Though I'm sure there are other quality controlled expansion bullets that work as well. Perhaps these bullets are unneccessary for most perfect broadside applications but just what the doctor ordered for those less than perfect opportunities.
I've put lots of animals down with shots other than the standing side shot. They can be extremely devastating and quick, especially when you break down major bone structures. It doesn't always make for a neat field dressing but it could spell the difference between taking home a trophey and going empty handed. FWIW

I wouldn't put the Hornady bullets in the same class as the Coreloks myself. I've seen the results of both.
I guess if you get the perfect broadside shot every time, any old bullet will probably work- or will they? When Coreloks fail, they fail spectacularly. It only takes one to ruin a hunt, and maybe cost a lost trophy.
Example- a few years ago, my hunting party was hunting Elk in S.E. Oregon. We usually spread out over a long ridge that the Elk move around until pushed off it. I heard my brother shoot from about 1/2 mile away, so I called on the radio then went to help.
He had a perfect broadside shot on a big cow elk at about 70 yards and hit it in the shoulder. That is when things got interesting. That 150 Grain Corelok out of his 30-06 ( I know, too light) blew up on the shoulder bone and literally separated the leg from the elk, except for a small piece of skin on the inside. We trailed that elk for at least 5 miles in all kinds of terrain, no blood trail and very few tracks in the dry, grassy terrain and through the trees. Several hunters we ran into along the way reported seeing this elk with the leg flopping around, running on three legs. We lost the track in a patch of Salal about 3 acres in size and never could find it again, despite being out half the night with lanterns, flashlights, and anything else that would help. The coyotes ate good that night, I'm sure- all because a bullet failed at what some would consider a "perfect shot".
This isn't the only corelok failure we have had, but it is definitely the most spectacular.
My brother only shoots my handloads now, and no problems with putting elk, deer or anything else down with the Nosler Partitions and Hornady Spire Points I load for him. In fact, this year my son shot a Moose with the only shot he had- a Texas heart shot at 325 yards with a 300 H&H Improved. The bullet hit about 2" left of the anus, travelled through the ham, the lungs, and nicked the heart. When we got to it, it was still standing in the bush, but not for long. The bullet was a Hornady Spire Point Interlock. I doubt a Corelok would have performed as well in this shot.-
Funny you should mention Speer boattails also. I shot 2 Elk with Speer boatails with my 7 Mag. Both perfect broadside shots through the lungs. The bullets just pencilled through, resulting in very long, exhausting tracking and packing jobs with basically no blood trail. Both elk were recovered, but the evidence showed the bullets just didn't open up, even though you could easily see the bullet holes through both lungs. One was shot at approximately 75 yards, the other about 400 yards across a canyon. Each was hit at least twice. Just another case for the proper bullets for the job.-Sheister

[This message has been edited by Sheister (edited 12-04-2001).]

Sorry, hit the wrong button.

[This message has been edited by Sheister (edited 12-04-2001).]

I prefer to do my tracking before i shoot NOT after. Thats why i only Nosler Part. and this year i tried the Swift A-Frame. Same results, no tracking, just packing.

I don't think the 150gr core lokt failed. The hunter failed so theres no point in bad-mouthing the bullet. And sooner or later your story might well be told by every hunter that drives a hyper velocity, weinie bullet at an elk while chanting "speed kills, speed kills".

I've nuked more than one CoreLokt and don't recall chanting ANYTHING. They are a good bullet,if you observe the speed limit.

I tend to favor cartridges,that exceed the typical speed limit,of conventional projectiles. That is why I favor the X bullet and I prefer to break shoulders. BOTH shoulders,is better yet..........

Even on elk, and I've shot a bunch of them, I think a GameKing or B-Tip works quite well. However, I don't shoot belted magnums anymore, and "normal bullets" at "normal velocities" (under 3000 fps) simply are not going fast enough to destroy themselves. If I were hunting stuff I was afraid of, big bears or buff, then it would be quite a different story. But I'm just your average American hunter, I don't need anything more than a .308 and a run of the mill 150.
~lokey

beemanbeme, did you miss something in my post or do we have different definitions of hyper velocity? I stated the 150 corelok was from a 30-06, factory loaded. That should have been well within it's design parameters and yet it failed. I will agree it is a weinie bullet, but nothing the hunter did in this case should have caused this bullet to fail, if it was up to the task to begin with- IMHO.- Sheister

I agree with sxr6 on this one. Also, when hunting in bear country I only use the best bullets I can find, and select the ones that more than likely will zip right through moose. I have been using 230-grain FS bullets, and last year 250-grain NOS. Of all the moose I have killed, only one walked maybe 25 yards after the shot, and the rest have dropped pretty fast. I have only shot one moose through the shoulders, and the rest have been lung/heart shots (including quartering ones).

The moose shot through the shoulders dropped on the spot (like most others I have killed). A FS broke both shoulder bones, then exited. I have only recovered one FS bullet from moose so far. Something else: I don't like the new FS bullets, because they are Moly-coated. The original ones had some type of dry lubricant called "Lubalox" or something like that.

[This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 12-05-2001).]

I guess everbody has diff opinions because of what they've seen personally. I could tell a true story of my bud shooting a moose thru the lungs & tracking it quite some distance because of poor bullet performance. He was using a 7mm-300Weamag & 175 Nos Partions, bullet went right thru never striking a rib thus a very small entrance & exit wound. IS this poor performance or luck of the draw sort of. Is that the same as that certain core lock maybe stricking a heavy bone fair on. My point is maybe? that every bullet has it's bad points but I'll still try my behind the shoulder thru the lungs shots with core locks or Horn SP because they shoot SOO sweet in my .280 & because they have always worked for me.

If I'm going to bust that shoulder knuckle then I sure want a premium bullet such as a Northfork, Woodleigh, Nosler..I have seen the rest fail on that difficult shot..A Speer hotcore or Sierra anything will come apart on that knuckle nearly every time. A Speer grandslam will work near evertime.

I think the Rem Corelokt is the best of the non premium bullets if you don't drive it too fast it will work on anything at about 2500 FPS but will fail at about 3000 on ocassions.

My question is why would you not use a premium if that is your choice shot, the difference in cost of Noslers and Speers is not much. Give yourself the edge..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I agree with a lot you say Ray, BUT if you look at the other side of the table, what if a guy tries that shoulder shot but hits to far back, say thru the lungs behind the shoulder then a highly expandable bullet would be much preferred. If I was consistantly aiming for a shoulder I might go to a premiun bullet but then I've recovered a few Hor interlocks from moose that had perfect looking perforance? If we go back to the first post I agree premium bullets in THAT situation.

sheister, while a factory loaded 150gr 30-06 would certainly not be a hyper velocity round, it certainly would be a weinie round when asked to kill an elk. While a corelokt bullet wouldn't be my first choice for elk hunting, if its what I had I wouldn't feel too badly. But the corelokt I would send to fetch an elk would weigh 200 or 220 grains. Yes, out of a 30-06 at @ 2550-2600fps.

I had a 180gr corelok out of a 30-06 blow up on a deer shoulder shooting straight down from the treestand. He had no shoulder whatsoever left, just the lower leg. I guess I hit the top of the shoulder blade and it traveled down the bone, blowing up. He didn't go far. I'll take the 180gr corelok every time, every shot angle, on a deer. I aim for the back edge of the shoulder blade, and expect them to drop.

I have to jump in on this one, I to am not in favor of Core-Loc or Speer Hot-Cores. I have taken deer with both and witnessed Elk Taken with both. I also have to say that I use standard lead core bullets in some rifles and don't in others. It mostly has to to with velocity and my thought of what type of shot is most likely in the area to be hunted.
I think a higher velocity round should be launching a stiffer ( controlled expansion) type bullet. The slower rounds do best with a heavier slug of standard construction. BUT there is a limit! My father once shot an Elk with an '06 and heavy round nose bullets a friend had loaded for him. They went through with little or no expansion. Later he (friend) admitted they were bullets left over he had been using in his 300 H&H. A poorly matched rifle bullet combo can be as bad as a poorly placed shot. I have not settled on a bullet that is perfect in every situation but have learned where to place my shots based on what bullet is in the load. I like heart lung shots but have taken four with head shots.The longest of these was just over one hundred yards and was done with a .22-250. I don't recommend a .22-250 for deer but admit this only to make the point that the rifleman who's ethical will understand the capability of himself and his firearm and place his shots accordingly. If there were no need for Premium bullets they would have gone out of business. I think the Rem and Speers have been the cause of Noslers and Barnes success.

I am a great fan of shoulder shots as long as you are using a premium bullet(Nosler part,Barns X, Swift Aframe). They destroy little meat. Also if you are aiming at the shoulder and you hit a little of the shoulder you have still made a good shot.

Happy Hunting

If you are hunting in conditions where you can always take the same angle of shot, you are a lucky bunch o' stiffs.

Everywhere I've ever hunted, an animal could appear at any angle. I'd rather not have to calculate, a la, "OK, he's quartering toward me so I can't make the broadside lung shot with this bullet." I'd like to be able to take any reasonable shot.

The elk I shot last year was first spotted facing me. I had no shot because there was a bunch of brush in front of him. I stalked around the side hoping for a broadside shot only to find that when he was in sight again he had turned his rump to me. I waited a bit, gambling that he'd turn again, and he did -- the shot was slightly quartering away so the bullet went in behind the left shoulder and lodged in the right.

I took the shot as soon as I had a clear path for the bullet and he wasn't facing straight away. I knew the bullet (180-gr. Partition from a .30-06) could handle any reasonable angle.

John

I'm a big fan of the shoulder shot. I have used the Partition on shoulder shots with great success on hogs, deer, elk and bear. I lose some meat but game seldom goes far which is important to me anyways. The core lokts and sierras are prone to failure when driven really fast or close shots out of a magnuum. I prefer complete penetration, two holes are always better than one. When you have put down your fair share of big game you will arrive at this consensus as others have. A premium bullet will still kill on a lung shot as a conventional would, as Ray once said, " two holes, blood rushing out and air sucking in" that about sums it up boys!

Ray(Alaska), you can remove that coating on FS bullets fairly easy. Soak your bullets in Jasco paint remover(gold&red can) and after 5 min brush with a toothbrush(wear rubber gloves). Rinse off with water, dry and run thru your tumbler for final clean-up. You can try the tumbler method first but it may take awhile and you will ruin your media. sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 12-10-2001).]

sxr6,
I have never had a problem shooting elk through the lungs with a premium bullet or through the shoulder knuckle either..thats the advantage of a primium, they are just better bullets anyway you cut it, under any circumstances...The corelokts, hotcores, Sierra work a lot of the time, but I have seen all the non premiums fail over the years and more than once, and a few of the premiums.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'm a somewhat opinionated guy with over 50 years of shooting Whitetails,so I do have a favorite point of aim.
First,Sitka,I am amazed that your 180 grain Corelokt bullet "blew up" on the shoulder.I stopped using that bullet when I put Two(2) of them two inches apart in both lungs(broadside)of a spike Buck at 40 yards.They punctured him like a full metal patch,and I found him the next day.I believe that the 180 gr Corelokt is only a good choice if you prefer the "Texas" heart shot on Whitetails.
Most of my experience is with the Hornady Interlock(#3031),and it destroys the shoulder,so I avoid it,if I can.I try to hit the Opposite shoulder,after passing through the deer's body.It performs great on lung and heart shots.
This year,for the first time,I shot a buck with a 170 grain LEAD,paper patched bullet.As usual I aimed right behind the shoulder,missed my mark,,and hit the shoulder.The bullet passed through,exiting in front of the opposite shoulder.When I got to him,he was twitching,but unable to raise his head.There was very little loss of meat.
This is only a one shot experience,and proves NOTHING,but it's possible,that a lead bullet is just as good as a premium bullet,for Whitetails.
Frank

IMHO,
Deer and Elk are in two different classes. I don't shoot many deer as i mainly hunt elk and it would have to be a monster buck to get me to shoot it where i hunt elk!

All that said, I have too much respect for elk to hunt them with a ten cent bullet. When i was young i saw what could happen with a bad shot and today they are even harder to hunt.

IMHO, there is no better shot than the shot you got and you had better be prepared to put a bullet into the vitals from ANY angle. That can mean a lot of bone and tissue

The problem seems to me to be that deer and elk are as different as night and day. While most any heavy for caliber bullet will work for a lung shot on a whitetail, elk, even cows and spikes can be just plain tough.
I have shot deer with calibers from .224 to .358 using Speer, Sierra, Hornady and Core-loct bullets and they have all pretty much behaved the same. Either they drop to the shot or run (up to a hundred yards) and fall dead.
Elk, even with a lung penetrated and a shoulder broken, can cover a lot of ground before expiring.
Personally, I like to shoot as close behind the shoulder as possible, about a third of the way up from the brisket. On deer I'll use whatever bullet the gun likes as long as it isn't too light of weight and for anything bigger or tougher than deer a premium bullet is called for.
The Partition is awfully hard to beat though on anything.

I have to agree with jmac. My experience on elk with the shoulder shot is that once the bullet negotiates that large bone anywhere near the shoulder blade it has lost a lot of it's destructive power. The nosler partition will clear this bone but will often change direction and will have practically no mushroom left to damage lung tissue. End result is a long hike after an elk that can still outclimb a man on any mountain. I thought that once I went to a 300 magnum and used heavy noslers all would be easystreet but I still get quicker kills with behind the shoulder shots and if possible I always take neck shots.

quote:

He had a perfect broadside shot on a big cow elk at about 70 yards and hit it in the shoulder. That is when things got interesting. That 150 Grain Corelok out of his 30-06 ( I know, too light) blew up on the shoulder bone and literally separated the leg from the elk, except for a small piece of skin on the inside. We trailed that elk for at least 5 miles in all kinds of terrain, no blood trail and very few tracks in the dry, grassy terrain and through the trees. Several hunters we ran into along the way reported seeing this elk with the leg flopping around, running on three legs. We lost the track in a patch of Salal about 3 acres in size and never could find it again, despite being out half the night with lanterns, flashlights, and anything else that would help. The coyotes ate good that night, I'm sure- all because a bullet failed at what some would consider a "perfect shot". This isn't the only corelok failure we have had, but it is definitely the most spectacular.

The Core-Lokt bullet design is essentially still a conventional type bullet, somewhat improved in its progressively tapered jacket that is "locked" in but it still breaks up at higher velocities. That is why Remington brought out an improved version; the Core-Lokt Ultra with a bonded lead core with more controlled expantion and a higher weight retention ratio. The bonding process keeps the bullet from fragmenting on close-range high-velocity impacts, but the expansion still does not get arrested at some point like in bullets with a solid shank or partition (TBBC's, NF's and Swift A-Frames, etc).

Conventional bullets shatter most of the time when thick bone is encountered and often you have a wounded animal.

Warrior

Hey Warrior
This thread has been dead since 2001.
Northfork is no longer making bullets.
You forgot to mention Hot Core.

Warrior is working on a new record for dredging up old threads. His last was 6 1/2 years old, this tops it by a few months.

Ken....

quote:

sheister, while a factory loaded 150gr 30-06 would certainly not be a hyper velocity round, it certainly would be a weinie round when asked to kill an elk. While a corelokt bullet wouldn't be my first choice for elk hunting, if its what I had I wouldn't feel too badly. But the corelokt I would send to fetch an elk would weigh 200 or 220 grains. Yes, out of a 30-06 at @ 2550-2600fps.

To each his own, but I totally disagree with your assessment on the 150 gr. bullet out of an '06 on elk.

I witnessed a hunter kill a 5x5 with one shot at slightly over 500 yards with a 150 gr. bullet from a 270.

I watched the hunter make the shot and went with the outfitter and one of the other guides and field dressed that bull.

That bullet broke both shoulders and exited.

Don't take me wrong, because I prefer using a 35 Whelen and a 375 H&H for all of my hunting, 225 gr. Barnes "X" out of the Whelen and 250 gr. "X" bullets out of the 375.

But from personal experience a 150 gr. bullet out of a 270, 308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag or 300 Weatherby Mag will get the job done.

Just behind the shoulder and a little lower than the shoulder. This shot has really served me well through my many years of deer hunting. Usually provides pass through shots and lots of blood. If the deer is quartered facing or away from me I'll shoot so the bullet passes through the area my favorite shot passes through.

Yup, Crazyhorse, that was quite a shot. Much further than anything I've ever attempted except on varmints. You sometimes hear about some spectacular results from the light for calibre bullets, altho I don't think a 150 from a .270 is "light for calibre" but you also see some pretty spectacular failures that never make it into print.

Notice, I was not the one that took the shot. Also I don't and won't own a 270, I like bigger guns.

But I also don't or won't blanket dismiss a gun/caliber, simply because it does not meet with what I prefer to use.

Bullet placement is a major part of making a clean kill, knowing what to expect out of that bullet with proper placement is also a big part, and that means knowing what that bullet is going to be doing at various ranges.

Yes, there are some incredibly disasterous failures that don't make it into print as you stated, and they are not always because of "light for caliber bullets".

The outfitter I hunt elk with in Colorado flatly claims that he has witnessed more elk being shot and lost with 175 grain bullets out of a 7mm. Rem Mag, than any other caliber/bullet combination.

I have seen lots of fol;ks that lacked the experience make some really piss poor shots on critters, simply because they thought that "X" number of grains of bullet weight traveling at super sonic speed was going to drop an animal simply by passing thru the general vicinity.

Aim for the exit hole.