Many states and provinces offer special tags for sheep that are sold at auctions by the various sheep advocacy groups. Supposedly, the money goes to the state/province for sheep management. I would think that some goes to the sheep advocacy groups as well.

So, you are a resident of one of the sheep states/provinces. Your governor or agency hands out tags for auction while you are stuck applying for preference points or tags - usually for several years.

Question:
Do you support the auction process of valuable sheep tags?

Is there a better option to fund sheep management?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

I did it twice in Utah. Based upon what I was personally told by someone from the park on the last hunt, 100% of the money went to conservation of wildlife in the park.

How much better can it get?

I could have gone to Mexico for less money and gotten a bigger sheep. The fact that 100% of the money went to conservation was the deciding factor.

You need to fix your poll. You asked TWO questions but allowed for only one answer. I would answer yes for one and no for the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
You need to fix your poll. You asked TWO questions but allowed for only one answer. I would answer yes for one and no for the other.

Yep, It's either unintentionally or maliciously misleading to ask two opposing questions and allow only one answer.

I too would answer yes and no..


Zeke

Question #1:Yes Question #2:No My question: Do all funds raised by permit drawings go to benefit the specie for which the tag is being sought? I think not.

quote:

Originally posted by groundtender:
Question #1:Yes Question #2:No My question: Do all funds raised by permit drawings go to benefit the specie for which the tag is being sought? I think not.

Agreed. And though I have no data to support my speculation, I assume you are correct. My application fee for sheep tags (and the money for the tag itself if I ever actually drew one) surely don't go towards only sheep conservation. Most probably goes to Game and Fish admin, enforcement, and other random crap. The money from auctions probably has much more species-specific conservation impact.

Yes
No

If the tags are handled properly with all proceeds going back to help that particular animal and they are kept at a minimum, then I guess I can live with them. Utah, however, is an example where the DWR in cahoots with the SFW/MDF has gone nuts with all the auction tags they have at the Expo that is going on this week down in SLC! IMHO, the more I think about them it really goes against the NAM when only the upper class has the money to bid on them. It would probably be better to do away with them and have auction tags go to raffles where everyone has a legitimate chance at putting in for them by buying reasonably priced tickets in a raffle type situation with a limit on how many a person can purchase to keep the high rollers from buying more than most could afford.

Put all tags in the hopper, let the drawing begin.

I wish I could fix the poll but am allowed one question. I asked two as I was hoping to generate ideas with the second. Sorry to be confusing.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
If the tags are handled properly with all proceeds going back to help that particular animal and they are kept at a minimum, then I guess I can live with them. Utah, however, is an example where the DWR in cahoots with the SFW/MDF has gone nuts with all the auction tags they have at the Expo that is going on this week down in SLC! IMHO, the more I think about them it really goes against the NAM when only the upper class has the money to bid on them. It would probably be better to do away with them and have auction tags go to raffles where everyone has a legitimate chance at putting in for them by buying reasonably priced tickets in a raffle type situation with a limit on how many a person can purchase to keep the high rollers from buying more than most could afford.

This!

In reality I would just soon see them (auctions) all eliminated. I certainly have no ill will against those that buy them. I do have an issuing with the DWR giving so many away. A few would/could be OK and I would raffle them

quote:

You need to fix your poll. You asked TWO questions but allowed for only one answer. I would answer yes for one and no for the other.

Plus One on that.

Its pretty obvious from your word choices and the way you asked your questions that there is a good deal of sour grapes on your part. Do you seriously think the various sheep, et al, programs could be kept afloat with you buying some $3 across the counter tag?
The various auctions are pretty above board and open for public view. Have your taken advantage of that?

If a state has at least 10 tags for a species then I support one and only one tag to be offered through a raffle where you can buy one and only one entry for $10.

If a state has at least 20 tags for a species then I support also offering one and only one tag to be auctioned at the largest-attended wildlife outdoors show. The credit card fees can be paid out of the auction proceeds but otherwise all proceeds are sent to the State F&G that offered up the tag.

So, might be none or one or two tags but that is the cap for tags of a species taken out of the draw process.

If a states premium wildlife population can support a raffle AND an auction I'm all for it.
If the state sells 10,000 Moose raffle tickets for $25 each then they just got a shot in the arm of $250,000. If they can do that AND sell one at auction the benefits are obvious.
I see this as a win win for all hunters.
I don't know of any states that offer tags at auction that those same tags can't be won in a raffle by the average working man not to mention the basic drawing process.
It would be easy for me to be "sour grapes" about this but I'm not. Been trying for a Colorado Moose tag since 1986, (before preference points) my brother and some friends have drawn Moose tags but no luck for me. I enter the drawing every year, I buy hundreds of dollars in raffle tickets every year and no luck.
If the state were to auction a Moose tag and it was beyond my finances then good for the high bidder and good for the state of Colorado just because I don't get a tag doesn't mean its a bad deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

raffles where everyone has a legitimate chance at putting in for them by buying reasonably priced tickets in a raffle type situation with a limit on how many a person can purchase to keep the high rollers from buying more than most could afford.

This sounds like Socialism for the hunting world.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

raffles where everyone has a legitimate chance at putting in for them by buying reasonably priced tickets in a raffle type situation with a limit on how many a person can purchase to keep the high rollers from buying more than most could afford.

This sounds like Socialism for the hunting world.

You obviously have never read the NAM (North American Model), or maybe don't even know what it is, but in our country it's the basis for proper game management and suggests that everyone have a chance to hunt compared to the European method of whomever has the most money gets to hunt and the hell with everyone else. Call it whatever you want, but it's what separates the US from a lot of Europe and other countries around the globe where only the rich can hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Its pretty obvious from your word choices and the way you asked your questions that there is a good deal of sour grapes on your part. Do you seriously think the various sheep, et al, programs could be kept afloat with you buying some $3 across the counter tag?
The various auctions are pretty above board and open for public view. Have your taken advantage of that?

Wasbeeman,
No, no sour grapes on my part. I can afford nearly any of the auction tags and have bought a couple. The issue for me is that waiting 20 years with preference points for a tag is a lifetime for many of us.

I am truly wondering if there is a better way to "put more sheep on the mountain" AND "put more hunters out there sheep hunting".

It seems the high dollar auction tags go to hunters that have assets and have done a lot of sheep hunting. The guys that sweat out preference points rarely get more than one or two chances to hunt sheep.

The raffle type of sales are interesting as well and I am not sure if the odds are higher or lower with raffles.

The true auction at Wild Sheep Show or GSCO or SCI are high dollar events for very few folks.

Anyway, I have no heartburn either way. I was just looking for ideas of other ways to raise money for sheep management AND get people out hunting them.

Here in Montana , I believe all the money goes to sheep conservation via establishing new herds
Biggest obstacle is that damn pneumonia, which does set back individual areas easily 5-10 years
I do support the highest bidder auctions, why not, so what that people have more money?
Good for them and let them spend it
I have been putting in for almost 30 years and I have not drawn and so what
Plenty of my friends drew over the years and I simply live the hunts through them
Besides I can and do go to Europe and hunt their wild sheep on occasion
They are all curly in the end...

Good post Ross

Given the way some states operate, who knows.

The options are either charge what the market will bear or make it a lottery.

I think the current situation is about as bad as it gets. A mixture of the two with games played behind the scenes that make the chance worse for the majority of folks who would like to hunt them.

If it’s all about money, get rid of differences in resident vs nonresident options for the draw and put everyone in the same pot. Charge a fair fee. Get rid of preference points.

Two reasons I haven’t tried sheep hunting yet... one is I haven’t drawn a tag, two is the very high cost for a non draw hunt to shoot only one animal.

I'm not going to comment on what goes on in other states in regards to special permits because I've only covered them lightly over the years. But...I have been writing about what has gone on here in AZ with the special permits since they were first brought into being in 1984.

Some specific FACTS (not opinions or speculation):

1. The permits for all game species here have raised millions of dollars. That's millions of dollars hunters didn't have to pay through increased license/tag fees.

2. ALL the money raised for each permit MUST, by STATE LAW, be returned directly to AGFD. Any organization auctioning/raffling a permit must absorb all the costs involved.

3. The money from each permit can only be used to benefit the game animal for any given permit.

4. In the case of desert sheep, the relocations have resulted in the number of permits more than doubling since the special permit program went into effect. That translates to MORE permits in the general draw for the poor slobs like me who couldn't afford to bid thousands for an auction tag.

5. The raffle permits allow anyone, no matter your financial of social status, a chance to win the tag.

6. I haven't checked in years, but in the 1980s, it cost nearly $1K to relocate a single sheep. I'm guessing it's quite a bit higher now.

I have oodles of various columns and/or articles that have covered facets of this program. It's what I did for a living over the last 40 years.

Below is one of my columns from 1984 that I wrote in Outdoor Life. The amount bid for the permit is miniscule compared to what they go for these days.

PROCEEDS WILL BENEFIT AZ BIGHORNS

A few months ago, the first of two desert bighorn sheep permits had been auctioned to a California resident for an astonishing $64,000. Maybe this figure is not really "astonishing" to Don Pocapalia of Rancho Palos Verde who won the final bidding, but for me, raising the hundred and fifty bucks to apply for a normal sheep drawing can sometimes be a chore.

This month the second permit donated to the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society will be given away to the lucky person whose name is drawn from the hundreds of $25 raffle tickets sold. Sale of the chances ended on August 1, and when the final tally is made, the Arizona Bighorn Sheep Society (ADBSS) hopes to amass between $20,000 to $30,000 more in funds to go into an interest bearing account along with the earlier auction money.

Where is this all going? Quite a while ago, when I first learned of the donation of the two sheep permits to the ADBSS, I was thoroughly incensed by the whole affair.

My anger really peaked when I heard about the selling price for that first permit. I simply could not understand why the game department had the right to donate two permits to an organization for the purpose of raising money, especially since my license money has been contributing to sheep research and department salaries for 25 years. And, during those years, I had never been drawn to hunt the desert bighorn.

Now, before someone starts shouting "sour grapes", let me say that over the last few months, my feelings toward this practice have mellowed considerably. In fact, I am now totally in favor of and support it.

After some investigation, many things surfaced which altered my position. Conversations with personnel at the Game and Fish headquarters explained some of the reasons behind their actions, but the most enlightening facts came through Don Johnson, a past-president of the ADBSS and the current chairman of the committee entrusted with the disposal of the two "fundraising" permits.

According to Johnson, this is the best thing to ever happen for the desert bighorn in the state of Arizona. For him to feel that way is quite surprising since he, like myself, has never drawn a sheep permit!

Because all of the money spent on wildlife research and habitat improvement in the state comes from department funds and not from any general tax funds, traditionally, money for sheep projects has been hard to raise. However, with the dollars from the two permits, research on the bighorn will be vastly expanded.

The desert bighorn has experienced a troubled existence in Arizona since the late 1800's. Miners, prospectors, soldiers and others overhunted the sheep for food and trophies. Because of additional habitat loss, new diseases and the indiscriminate hunting, the bighorns experienced a major decline in their historic ranges.

Finally, folks began to realize the need for some protection, and in 1939 the Kofa Game Range and the Cabeza Prieta Wildlife Refuge were established to help save the animals from extinction.

In 1958, Game and Fish moved 16 sheep into the Aravaipa Canyon from the Kofa Range, the first transplant management effort. The permit being raffled this month will allow the lucky winner to hunt this area, Unit 31. Although Aravaipa was not opened to hunting till 1980, it has consistently produced record heads including a huge ram taken in 1982 by John Harris.

Recognizing the need for additional management of the bighorn, people who were concerned for the animals long-term welfare organized the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society in 1967. Over the years, this group has donated many hours and countless dollars, the main ingredients for successful management.

Unlike some of the other so-called "wildlife organizations", there are not any "fat-cats" who sit behind a desk reaping a profit at the ADBSS; everyone is strictly a volunteer concerned with the welfare of the sheep; nobody draws a salary!

This fact is evident in the administration of the two donated permits; all of the costs involved in the auction and raffle are being underwritten by the Society. Not one single dollar of the monies from either will be used for anything but to help the desert bighorn survive.

In order to obtain the permits for their endeavor, the ADBSS had to fight an uphill struggle with the Game Commission and the legislature to make the donation possible since it was illegal until new legislation was enacted.

"When we first approached the game department, they had mixed emotions. They thought there would be a huge public outcry against such a move", Johnson says. "We finally convinced the department to present our plan to the commission, and they instructed Game and Fish to further investigate the matter from a legal standpoint, the public's opinion and the way other states did it and how it worked."

After the matter became public, it was found that the opinions on such a move were favorable leading to the legislation making the donation possible.

The bill became law in July 1983 and includes all big game species, not only sheep. These tags will only be issued to incorporated, non-profit, wildlife conservation organizations with the stipulation that all of the proceeds be used in Arizona for management of the animal for which the tag is designated. Any group requesting these tags must also agree to underwrite all of the costs involved in their sale and transfer.

Of course, there are some people who are still against this fundraising effort, especially in the Tuscon area. These folks are miffed because one of the permits allocated for the Aravaipa Canyon hunt is being used for the raffle.

"Some people felt that these permits would magically appear as extra permits. Of course, this is not the case. If the areas involved could support the extra permit, it should have existed last year. If there are two permits in an area, and one of those is allocated to the raffle, that leaves one available for the general drawing," Johnson states.

If a person really thought about it, he would realize that without the management efforts, there would not be any permits available in Aravaipa. He would also realize because of the extra money and concentrated efforts of the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the other government agencies involved, that in the future, permits never before possible will be made available for the general drawing. Proper management, needed waterholes, transplants of sheep into historic habitat now devoid of any, will all lead to herd improvement. In fact, many of the biologists involved feel that the population could easily double in no time.

If this happens, who knows, maybe both Don Johnson and I may eventually get a permit to hunt the bighorn sheep.

quote:

"Some people felt that these permits would magically appear as extra permits. Of course, this is not the case. If the areas involved could support the extra permit, it should have existed last year. If there are two permits in an area, and one of those is allocated to the raffle, that leaves one available for the general drawing," Johnson states.

I should have mentioned that this part is no longer relevant as the permits are pretty much state-wide and not relegated to a single unit.

This is an excerpt (circa mid-1980s) from a much longer article on conservation efforts in AZ.

**************************************

At one time the desert bighorn inhabited most of Arizona's mountain ranges. Human encroachment, the enigma of the elk, played a major role in their decline, too. Meat hunters, not particular as to what type of game graced the table, haphazardly slaughtered hundreds of sheep.

In addition, hordes of domestic livestock competed with the bighorns for the sometimes scarce, available food and water. Disease, introduced and transmitted by the livestock, decimated entire herds.

Finally, interested citizens, who feared the demise of the bighorn, sought to protect it. To prevent the sheep's extinction, government agencies established the Kofa Game Range and Cabeza Prieta Wildlife Refuge in 1939.

Located in southeastern Arizona, they constituted the last remaining strongholds for the bighorn. In time, the two areas provided a nucleus herd, subsequently permitting game researchers to undertake transplants into other historical bighorn areas.

The AGFD selected Aravaipa Canyon, near Klondyke, as the site for the initial restocking. They constructed a 112-acre enclosure in 1957 and released 8 sheep within the following two years. The herd failed to reproduce and dwindled to two rams by 1964. Determined personnel transferred eight more bighorns from the Kofa Game Range. The second effort produced the desired results when the herd grew to 22. Hopeful the sheep would adapt, game specialists released them from the control area.

Sheep in Aravaipa steadily increased to the present estimated population of 100. In 1980, permits to hunt desert bighorn in the canyon became a reality. The unit has produced exceptional rams, including a record book head taken in 1982 by John Harris. In December, Jim Ferguson of Yuma, who won a raffled permit that the state had donated to the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, pursued a ram at Aravaipa.

Elated with the apparent success of the first bighorn transplant, the Arizona Game and Fish Department, with the aid of advanced trapping techniques, has continued to reestablish the sheep. Since 1980 it has relocated animals into the Superstition, Virgin, Galiuro and Eagletail Mountains; the Paria Canyon Primitive Area, the Grand Wash Cliffs and Goat Mountain.

Some of these ranges have had recent, supplemental stockings. In November, 1984 the Kofa Game Range supplied 30 sheep for release at Coffee Flat in the Superstitions. Redfield Canyon, in the Galiuros, received 10 bighorns taken from the Plamosa Mountains.

Long-term plans include more than 20 sites already designated as ideal habitat for future releases.

Because transplants are extremely expensive, funding sometimes creates an obstacle; it takes $850 to move one sheep. Multiplying this amount times the 54 sheep captured near Lake Mead last year comes to $45,900 --- give or take a few cents!

The Arizona Game and Fish Department, a self-supporting entity, found it extremely difficult to budget all of the needed funds for transplant efforts. Even though beneficial, some were postponed, while more urgent matters emptied the department's coffers.

A group of hunters and conservationists, aware of the need for better sheep management programs, banded together and organized the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society in 1967. Since then, the society has raised thousands of dollars, and members, none of whom receive money for their efforts, have spent hours improving and building waterholes; assisting at sheep captures and releases and donating time for adminstrative work.

Last year the ADBSS persuaded the Game Commission to donate two permits for fund-raising efforts. Because no provision for this unprecedented request was ever enacted, the legislature passed an amended law in July 1983.

The first permit, auctioned on February 24, 1984 in California at a benefit conducted by the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep, raised $64,000 --- the amount bid by Don Pocapalia of Ranchos Palos Verdes, California. The second one, mentioned earlier, brought another $82,450. The total monies from both permits, along with other fund-raising activities, amounted to $149,000. Since all of this money will help safeguard the bighorn's welfare, the department can use other funds on non-sheep projects.

There are several States that have Governors raffles for the big game of your choice.I enter them every year with the hopes of winning but consider the money as a donation for wildlife.If I had the shekels to bid on some of these big game tags,I would bid on them.I do not begrudge a person who can afford to bid that chance for a Super tag.I also look as that money as a donation to wildlife.This is money that resident and non resident hunters do not have to come up with.We are all Americans and anyone if they have the gumption can make something of them selves.If you don`t take advantage of what we have here STFU!!

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
There are several States that have Governors raffles for the big game of your choice.I enter them every year with the hopes of winning but consider the money as a donation for wildlife.If I had the shekels to bid on some of these big game tags,I would bid on them.I do not begrudge a person who can afford to bid that chance for a Super tag.I also look as that money as a donation to wildlife.This is money that resident and non resident hunters do not have to come up with.We are all Americans and anyone if they have the gumption can make something of them selves.If you don`t take advantage of what we have here STFU!!

You and I can agree on this! Well said....

Perhaps the laws of supply and demand should apply, and sheep tags should be considerably more expensive than they are.

I must say I can get behind the way PA does it with their 2 special elk tags:

1 is auctioned to the highest bidder
1 is raffled so the average hunter still has a shot

in both instances the money is going back to supporting the elk herd in the state

For those that have noted the new world record bighorn from Montana's Wild Horse Island, the auction tag money for the Governor's tag helps relocate those sheep when the population gets too large for the island. No flies on that.

400 plus have been relocated. 400 with those flared tip genes unique to those sheep.

I used to fish around that island and it is a special place for sheep, and mule deer. There are also a few horses left which I loved to watch. I find wild mustangs to be very graceful creatures.

Auction tags, and raffle tags are a critical part of funding our wildlife's future.

As many have stated elsewhere, PETA sure a hell isn't funding anything that is truly good for animals. HSUS? Bunch of self important asshats. We've (hunters) got to fund it, and this is just one way we can.

Sheep are, sadly, a fragile group. They don't adapt and they don't handle disease well. Evolution was unfair in that way, but their beauty is unmistakable. I prefer to keep them around as long as possible.

Jeremy

I’ll bet a governors tag raffle would bring in just as much of not more money.

farbedo, really great response on this discussion.

"I’ll bet a governors tag raffle would bring in just as much of not more money."

ismith, unfortunately, that's not usually the case.
Two states off the top of my head that only do one auction and one raffle tag are Arizona and Idaho.

Last three years in Arizona the desert sheep raffle tag has brought in around an average of $165k.
The auction tag has averaged $300k.

Idaho's rocky mountain bighorn raffle tag brought in $83k last year.
The auction tag has averaged $117k the last two years.

This is a touchy subject with a lot of people.
It's a public resource, being sold to the highest bidder.

My opinion is that what Utah has done is an abomination. The public, in general, are sheeple. They will follow the flock and not poke their head up to see where in the hell they are going, so they just go along with it.

For me, an auction tag should have at least 95-98% of the money go back to helping the species proliferate. Having one auction tag and one raffle tag, with the same seasons and rules, just seems like a fair and balanced model to generate funds for the wildlife.
Utah sold, I believe, 10 sheep tags last year, while offering 81 in the public draw. (Two more were made available at the convention in drawings.) That's almost 11% of all the sheep tags in Utah being sold to the highest bidder, who represents 1% of society. I don't think that's right.

I would hesitate to answer such a question without doing a lot of research on it..I can see where it could put a lot of money in the right places, and there usually is a better way to do about anything..