What a shame that this board has turned into the beer muscle profanity fest that it has. It seems to be the case with most internet forums that are not moderated, a few nobodies with a need to prove themselves tougher, nastier, and smarter than everyone else in the world that could not possibly do anything better than they, drag down the level of discourse. As someone here once wisely posted "Don't argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." I would be nice to hear about some big game hunting experiences again.

[ 12-12-2002, 20:51: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

I agree, but as in life you are who you hang out with.

I choose not to engage those you describe in conversation just as I choose who I associate with on the street.

The only difference is when on the street I am armed with a bit more that just my keyboard (if ya knows what I mean).

Kevin, I agree.. this has gone down hill fast.. it amazes me a bunch of adults can actually act this way. I own and operate a family business. My wife and I finally became the owners outright.. Guys on here took it upon themselves to goto my webiste then start degrading my wife. MY WIFE, who has nothing to do with this forum. Just goes to show you how imature and cowardly these guys are. SO many egos and so little brains. I have to wonder about our future in this sport and the future of our rights if some of these guys have a family or children. I often wonder how some of these guys can look in the mirror and be happy with what they see...

I had the same issue a few months back. It's one thing to feel strongly about a position and fervently defend that position(that's what makes these forums enjoyable) but quite another to go to the lengths some do.

I actually sent a PM to Saeed as I was concerned about the potential fall-out to some of the very heated threads but he was comfortable with the free speech policy currently in place and felt the trouble-makers would go away and they did for the most part. When I thought about it some more, I'm glad he did what he did. If I had my way, certain members would have been banned or censured. Kind of queer thinking for someone from the U.S. don't ya think?? Like many have said before...."We'll defend your right to be wrong!".

The advice stated above about not participating seems the best advice to me as many of the flamers aren't really defending a position anyway, they're just so bored that they find entertainment in ongoing feuds.

WyoWhisper...I share your concern about our sport.

Dear WyoWhisper,

I can't tell you how distrubing it was to me to read your post. I'm sorry you or anyone of us could be a victum of that type cruelty. I've read where anti-hunting groups use these types of tactics? Do you think that could have been the case? Or was it one of us that perpetrated these violent acts?

We don't have to worry about outside forces when we disintegrate from the inside out.

I believe one person did that, and was quickly and toastily flamed for it, while others (like myself) checked out the website and put it on our list of possible places to visit someday. Wyo, you should consider the reactions others had to that fool before judging everyone.

It is best to single them out and not respond...

Scott,

I am not judging everyone, and if it came off that way I appologize. I was specifically speaking about the obvious 2-3 that were so desperatly trying to defamate my character. Good thing for me is that I have a statistics server that logs EVERYONE that visits my site. It is so specific that I can tell you which operation system you have. The person who manages my site is taking the necessary precautions and compiling the data needed.
Scott, I do hope you plan on visiting there are an overwhelming amount of things to see and do in this area of the country.

see what those guys don't know is my wife is a kickboxer and is really pissed... I don't have to tell you what a pissed off woman is like especially one that knows how to handle herself...

Wyoming Whisper, I'm sorry to read of the assault on your wife.

I take a lesson from the mafia (which, of course, doesn't really exist... *cough*), that "we never involve family."

I don't mind doing battle with people whom I feel are worth my time, and I don't particularly mind being singled out for an assault... but going after family, that's above and beyond.

There are two types of people on the planet, those with educated minds and those without. Understand, those with "educated minds" does NOT automatically include those who have been "exposed to education."

When I went to grade school, junior high school, and high school, I was FORCED to endure the cretins who were, by law, forced to be in my presence throughout my school years. I assure you, I do not associate with those people any longer and haven't from the day I was freed from high school. I was allowed, at that point, to pick and choose with whom I would associate.

I simply have no use for those who find humor in sexual comments, making fun of a person's appearance or physical disability, and those who go after family. I say in all honesty, before the FBI, CIA, BATF ninja turtles, and any other fucking "law enforcement" entity who might read this, that I would enjoy nothing more than bringing death to those oxygen wasters I just mentioned. I have no use for them, the planet has no use for them, and they cause more harm in MANY aspects of existence than any rare "good" they might do.

I really believe that the Lord My God is a wise and just God, and He will repay. Therefore, I know that, eventually, the assholes who have annoyed me -- and you -- will somehow meet their end in a violent and ruthless manner... like being crushed between two rail cars, crushed under a street paver, burned to death in a house fire... or being sliced to pieces, slowly, with a dull knife, by someone who wants to be the next Hannibal Lecter.

I'm sorry for the strife and unjustness you and your wife have recently had to bear.

Vaya con Dios, mi amigo.

Russ

I enjoy telling stories about exciting or funny or unusual big game hunting expriences. Whether they happened to me or whether they were related to me by friends that guide big game hunts. I don't bother posting them because not many here are that interested in hearing about hunting experiences. A post like 'Jkl I'm gonna after you' will have a thread 50 posts long. A novice(or non-novice) will post a question or talk of a recent success and the thread is 5 posts long. IMO that shows me where the interest lies.

I am fortunate to live in a place that has wonderfull fishing and hunting oppertunities. Lots of space and areas that are seldom or never hunted. The scenery alone is incredible...
I am not the only one that is fortunate and I am not bragging. Many times on hunting trips, I often thought about the people on 'Accurate' and wished they could be there to share the experience. Any respectful hunter is welcome with me. No matter where we are from, If you hunt, we all share a common bond.

We don't always have to agree with each other, but some of the squabbling going on is a little too much. The members responsible, I am sure, are fine hunters. I wish that they would act like it.

Daryl

wyo,

I think I know at least two of the people you indicate. The shot at your family, and the shot about trust funds or whatever come to mind.

My wife loves horses, and if I can afford it one day, I would like to try your ranch. I'm not a horse person, but I wouldn't mind some gold panning or something.

as one of those novices alluded to, I actually find it humorous that people with real experience argue over the fine details of ethics, but concentrate only on how the game is taken, not how it is used. If you catch a deer in a leg trap, and butcher it to feed your hungry family, is that somehow less ethical than stalking a deer for two days, making a clean quick 10 meter shot, and then whacking off the antlers and leaving the carcass? See what I mean?

I did notice that you weren't putting down hunters who use stands, or bows, or whatever the rant of the week might be; that says a lot. Part of my initial hesitance to get into deer hunting has been this unspoken gnosticism about "how it should be done", which makes it way more complicated than it is. I think I'm over that, and ironically, it is because of the squabbling I read here. Either everything is wrong or nothing is wrong. Depends on the day of the week it seems. All I really know for sure is I would feel guilty if I took a shot I had no expectation of making, or if I took an animal and didn't attempt to make use of it.

Hell, I even tried to skin the last skunk I killed. Very educational

Great Sentimate,
Wyo, I too am sorry to read of the assault on your wife.

Yet, discussion frequently gets roudy on here. In the past few months? It's been the same for at least the last 2 years, that I've been watching and then posting

one of the unfortunate things that happens in posting (which I've been "posting" since days of the commadore 64) is that people say things that either they wouldn't say in person, or you can't read the tone/inflection.

If this is regards to the LD offhand shooting post (other than the slam on someone NOT on the forum), then tough. Lots of folks have strong feelings on the subject, myself being one of them.

If you can't disagree in public, then I don't see the point in having a forum..

BBesides,
i am certain several folks involved in the operations of this board as more than amused by our antics.

Yep, I KNOW i am not unbaised

jeffe

Mr. Taylor, you have a way with words...

Wyo, the bit of degrading your wife was obviously way over the line. If somebody thinks I'm an asshole, they can call me an asshole. That most certainly doesnt give them any right to drag my wife into it and I'd....I'd....... Well, I refer you to Mr. Taylor's post.

I agree with Yukoner. It's amazing that a flaming post will be 1,000,000 threads long (or however long that damn matchking thread was) but a legit story or experience will have the fewest visitors.

One feller posted his bear in the back of a truck with some pop cans and folks went ballistic. All he was trying to do was show us a nice bear and relay an experience but people started relating it to the holocaust.

Don't get wrong, the're a lot of great folks on here with good information, but some people just oughta keep their opinions to themselves. What ever happend to the days of politeness and common decency.

Then there are the fellers who post just to hear themselves talk, and offer no input to the thread. Folks also start the flaming post on purpose trying to start a fight, like the ones "what bullet would you use for...." or "is my 22lr good enough for elephant" etc. etc.

I normally try to avoid the flaming threads unless I have a VALID input as to experience, other than that I just read and feel sorry for the folks involved.

Whatever though, this is still one of the best sites around.

Jim

I think the only people really amused by the antics are those involved in them, and a minority of others. IMHO, the vast majority would rather not see that crap at all.

I also think the recent rash of wasted bandwidth is due to a few newbies that have little if any appreciation for what is being provided here. They swooped in to pick a fight with a regular poster here. He did not bite (and I thank him for that) but a few "innocent bystanders" did and...away we go.

I presume by their antics (everyone involved) that they do not realize that this is a non-commercial site provided by our friend Saeed, free of charge, for all of us to use to our mutual benefit and enjoyment. We are all invited guests. If they realized how ungrateful and rude it is to use this gift that way, perhaps they would "take it outside" so to speak.

To all those that are fed up with the crap, thanks for keepin the faith and hanging around.

Wyo, sorry to hear that someone had to go so far as to involve family. That is unforgivable in my book.

Regards,
Canuck

[ 12-13-2002, 00:39: Message edited by: Canuck ]

Guys,

Things have changed around here in just the short time I have been posting. Sure, there have always been the rowdy discussions but it seems to me that they have gotten to be downright mean spirited. I was basically told on one forum here that I should not participate due to my lack of experience. I guess the deire to learn more is not in the cards for some.

Anyway, I would have to agree with Ray Atkinson in that just ignoring the idiots, it takes time, but they usually just go away. We are lucky to have the experienced hunters that we do posting here and it would be a shame if they all decided to allow a few idiots to run them off. Respect is a rare commodity in today's society. If we can't respect each other, as hunters, well, lets at least show Saeed the respect he deserves for providing this site for all of us to share.

Best of health and season's greetings to you all.

Joe

This is still a great forum. I am from the eastern U.S. and that is where all of my hunting and shooting has so far been done but I have a love for both and that is why I am here. Most times I feel very low on the totem pole so to speak but I have learned alot from this forum and given advice only when speaking from experience. It does seem that there are a few who only use this forum to flame for there childish kicks but thankfully they are in the minority and seem to get bored and go away before the new batch arrives. The other 99% need to hang in there, try not to get to discouraged, and use the "back button" as needed cause I may need your advice someday

I post messages in several forums every day (technology, politics, hunting, programming etc.), and I have to say that here I have read the most numerous and worst insults. It's like people can't admit they are wrong, or just don't bother proving it when they are right. Not that I feel any hostility, it's just that "disagreeing" here usually means calling each other motherf*ckers.

Where I come from, opinions don't mean shit if don't have facts to back them up, and if you don't have any, you usually have the courtesy to keep quiet until you do. No shame in being wrong, though, as long as you can admit it.

I normally just ignore them

WyoWhisper
I just had a look through your website and it looks great. You have access to all the things I like to do. Congratulations on obtaining your operation. It's just the best situation when your favorite interests can be your source of income. I'm sorry to hear about the nonsense of a few IDIOTS!! I'm bookmarking your operation for future reference so keep good tabs on those trout.
Yukoner I think if they could have a hit counter on posts that you would find that for ten replies that there would be hundreds of readers for the post. Think of the posts that you have read and enjoyed or received good information through and have not posted on. So lets hear some of the stories you mentioned. I'll bet theere was four or five hundred readers splitting a gut over Bill Leepers Elk saga.
You guys take good care,
470 Mbogo

Wyowhisper

I agree you have a great web site and a wonderful place to live. Drove through your area many years ago and thought it was beautiful.

Sorry to hear about the ##%$#%^ attacking you and your family. Some groups feel that the end justifies the means and don't care what tactics they use, . Typically they are cowards that hide behind anonymity.

Publicize their names if you ever find out who they are.

It reminds me of an incident about a decade ago (before caller id) in Montana. apparently some anti-developer group published the home phone and address of a USFS ranger that they did not agree with a descision that was made by the USFS. His family recieved many threats from cowards that would not give their names. when I spoke with him some time later he was still livid.

I have been in similar situations though not to the extreme (family threats)as you and the ranger. I found that by bringing these folks to the public eye ( when I could) usually made them quietly slunk away with their tales between their legs.

If you find out who threatened you, pass their contact info to us here on the forum.

good luck

RH

Well it is the internet, for what that is worth. Still and all though specific questions do seem to get a lot of well thought out responses and the idiots seem to let you know they are idiots. What more could you want for free?

Despite the occasional warts, I find this to be the best hunting website on the Internet. I avoid the long extended verbal wars. Just lob a shell inside the perimeter then move on.

Frankly, I'm more disturbed by the other sites I visit. While the language may be cleaner, they seem to get "owned" by a certain clic of participants who feel they are the only ones worthy to post. I get the feeling they all shower together.

Other forums just wither and die due to lack of interest.

Personally, I have limited interest in people wanting prayers, kids wanting to comment about how cool Britney Speers is, rednecks that know more about NASCAR than hunting, "expert" moderators; but then that's just me. (Watch the people that get offended here by my using the words, Britney Speers, red neck and NASCAR. These are the people to avoid.)

I prefer the free-for-all atmosphere here. I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to learn, and make each future hunt I take as close to perfect as possible.

I like the way Saeed works the political thread. He reminds me of the typical East Texas kid. You find a pile of dirt. You know there are fire ants inside, so you kick the shit out of it just to watch them go nuts.

Either kick the pile, or walk on by.

Lastly, stop worrying about whether this forum has deteriorated, it's not your forum, it's everyone's forum. That's the way I look at it. Enjoy the parts of it you like.

I agree some wives and children may not be comfortable here, but no one is controling your computer access, except you.

470Mbogo and Rockhead,

I hope you guys do plan to visit someday.. I read here more than I post and it would be great to match an name with a face. We have a great shooting complex here that has just about everything there is to do in shooting from cowboy action to sporting clays...
Alot of wildlife in the summer to shoot at ( camera ) and just a real exciting an neat town with and awesome park ( Yellowstone ) ... keep us in mind..

wyo whisper
I agree that the attack on your wife was ignorant to say the least.
One thing I would never do is post a pic of my wife on the net, That is just an invite for assholes to make asses out of themselves, ESPECIALLY if she is good looking.

I visit several boards, Mon mullies, hunt talk, 24 hour, jazzfanz, laker board, they are all about the same when it comes to idiots.

You are always going to have people that look at things from a different angle than you, Big deal, say your peace and move on.

um for the record.. OUR picture is on our business website...a long with tons of other pics. This is where these idiots went to.

and yes she is beautiful.. i got lucky!!

Wyo, Don't know your web site, but I've seen your prose. I'll watch your 6 any old day. Take care.

Wyo,I agree,you got lucky

I have also had my family attacked for no reason. I have never given one word of anything on these boards to suggest anything about my mother, but someone felt the need to attack her and say she is a bad bother and is divorced, works as a cheap waitress, ect. My mother has been married to my dad for over 30 years, actually in a couple almost 40, and has led a good real estate career as well.

I have had quite a few heated battles, but have never attacked anyone without ground or who didn't first lay some attack on me.

There are a lot of people who attack others for no reason and are only out to ruin a persons name. Look at what is going on to Randy Garrett and the 45-70. It is shameful to see people attacking someone who has made is their lifes work to making a quality hunting product- something of a rarity these days- and to have them drug through the mud just because some jackass has a differing opinion. The fights I have gotten into on here never involved such tactics. Yes, someone can call me a name, I might call them a name back, but thats generally as far as it goes.

Onto this board, I would hope that people if they are going to battle eachother, they should do it because they honestly believe firmly in their stance, not to cause trouble or throw gas into a bonfire as I have noticed.

Well, good night.

Buell

Buell,

Here is part of a posting that was addressed to me:

I'm having problems fucking myself, so could I borrow your mother? Or is the old bitch tired after a long night of barking at the moon?

That did not worry me as these are discussion boards.

In the case of Mr Garret he chose to have his comments published on the forum and via a member.

Mike

Mike, don't forget Rustle Tailor and his e-mail death threats... and he has "a way with words"... Lord, I've read it all now!

KevinNY

I concur in your judgment completely. Regrettably, the quality of discourse on this board, more precisely, the manners and etiquette of many who post here has declined markedly over the past year or two. It seems that we now have a good sized handful of dicussants who are unable to discuss an issue without lacing their prose with profane epithets and obscene ad homimem invective.

This site was once known for its intelligent, civil, witty and well-informed discourse. It used to be that one felt a sense of pride in being a hunter and shooter as one sensed the quality of similarly inclined folk who frequented this site. Increasingly this site is polluted by the "contributions" of a collection of vulgar, ill-mannered rubes with whom I believe I would not want to spend a millisecond in a hunting camp.

As an example, while I am not necessarily adverse to seeing the odd naked gal now and again [at my choosing] I note that posting nudity is now a commmon and unquestioned practice on this site. The most cruel and often obscene personal attacks are frequently indulged here. I find that to be a regrettable commentary on our standards.

Conversely, I am pleased that Saeed has chosen not to censor this site. I still regard AccurateReloading as a place frequented by some fantastic people who do our sport proud, but also, unfortunately, by increasing numbers of rabble [I will use the term "white trash"] in whom I take no pride whatsoever.

There, I said it.

Jordan

KevinNY,

About 99% of the threads and postings on this site relate to hunting and guns/ammo/reloading/ballistics etc.

The trolls only exist because people either:

1) Support the threads.

2) Make a thread like you have.

For you to make this thread you must have been reading a lot of the stuff the trolls are putting up.

Why do you read it if you don't like it? Why do the troll's activity cause you such problems that you need to start a thread about it.

Mike

TO ALL,
I agree that this site has been dragged down hill by a few who post their garbage. Wyo and Mike375, I am not the person who made such rotten attacks on your family members, but I feel that someone should apologize. No person should be subjected to such a vile insult. I have enjoyed most of the postings, and have not agreed with everything they contained. The only time, I recall, being upset to the point of confrontation was due to the scurrilous attack on the U.S. by a few posters. If I have ever insulted or offended anyone else I apologize for it now. If I didn't at the time.
Wyo, You do live in a beautiful part of the world. The story behind Dead Indian Pass has always tickled me. I grew very fond of Sunlight Basin. I think I saw a grizzly there once. It was heading north and all I really saw was its south end. I hope your wives accept this apology.

This forum has been a great source of information for me. The education I have received here is unmatched. There does seem to be a few individuals who like to fight with each other. Be patient and this too will pass.

Ditto to what Kensco said.

Have a good one!!!