The thread on button bucks got me thinking....( sometimes a dangerous thing)

I read years ago that:

Assuming good genetics and good nutrition a whitetail buck will sprout it's first rack at 18 months as a small but complete ten point rack!

It's real clear to me that this buck should be allowed a pass.....

However.....should we shoot spikes?....How about forkhorns at 18 months?

What's the opinions?

Interesting thread.

IMO we should shoot spikes and forkhorns. They will never become trophies as their genetics aren't conducive to that.

Further we need to not shoot trophy deer for a couple years to allow them to do more of the breeding. We're losing the genetics for nice racks by the way we're hunting.

It seems I see more of what we call scrub bucks every year but try to get the DOW to agree with it!

Auburn University has debunked the "spike myth". Many of their captive herd that began life as spikes grew into impressive older deer and often sported more impressive racks than their counterparts that were 8 points at 1.5. Thus, the shoot spikes theory is flawed.

Age, nutrition, and genetics are the key. You can control age and nutrition to some degree, but you cannot control genetics, period. How do you cull genetically inferior does in a free range setting. Answer? You cannot. And, that doe is 50% of your genetics. That is undeniable.

On my farm, my yearlings have spikes and my 1.5 year old deer will have a small branched rack. I rarely have a 1.5 that is a basket 8, 9, or 10. However, I am able to grow these deer into 4.5 year old deer in the 130 range and the occasional 5.5 year old deer up to 160.

When I was in Wyoming in 02 I saw a mule deer fawn with 3" spikes. That is the first time I have ever seen a spike still with the doe.

Rad

I've kind of come full circle on this. I used to shoot all spikes I could. Now I am more selective. If I age them at 3 years or older, they're dead meat. Young spikes walk.
GWB

Geedubya wrote: "If I age them at 3 years or older, they're dead meat. Young spikes walk."

+1 here. I've seen plenty of 1.5 year-old spikes grow into nice bucks. But the older spikes definitely become freezer fillers if the possibility presents itself.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
IMO we should shoot spikes and forkhorns. They will never become trophies as their genetics aren't conducive to that. ...

+1 Completely agree and fully support this as routine culling of poor Genetics.

Also agree with Will Parks that the Does contribute 50% to what will be. However, if we can keep the known inferior Genetics out of the herd, that works the best for us.

I'll "guess" that NONE of the HUGE WHOPPER TROPHY (Free Ranging) Bucks we have seen in the Hero Shots this year on the Board started life as a Spike or Fork Horn.

In my experience spike bucks do become decent deer given enough time to age. I have never seen one become a great deer. By great deer meaning 160+. Although I've shot over 100 spikes in my day none have ever aged 3.5. Very few have aged 2.5. I believe that 95% or more of spikes are 1.5 year old deer. I still shoot spikes but it depends on the previous years fawn crop. If the fawn crop was poor then I don't shoot them. It is my belief that you can kill off nearly an entire years age class of bucks by shooting all spikes.

Having tried culling for years on my ranches it reminds me of pissing in the wind. Yes it helps a little. But to get a monster buck the moon and stars need to align and the right buck breeds the right doe.

quote:

Auburn University has debunked the "spike myth". Many of their captive herd that began life as spikes grew into impressive older deer and often sported more impressive racks than their counterparts that were 8 points at 1.5. Thus, the shoot spikes theory is flawed.

I sure would like to read more about this study.

Frankly, all I have is opinion.....and that don't cut crap in the real world.

Can someone furnish a link?

there are so many variables that go into a bucks antler size that judging a bucks potential antler size when he is 1.5 is pointless.

age of spike...depends on birth date. He may just be a late born buck and will catch up...

health..he may of been sick as a small fawn and general body health directly affects antler size..in any age class but more so in young bucks.

individuality of antler growth..some bucks bloom early and never really reach what YOU thought they would...and others start slow and bloom at 4.5.

"Cull" bucks should be culled at age 4.5-5.5 when they are trophies in their own right. One cannot alter the genetic makeup in any free ranging herd of deer and it's damn hard to do in an enclosure with intensive management.

troy

Dtala,
I agree 100%.

I can see an almost two month difference in birth dates up here. Just my opinion, but I think that can make a big difference in 1.5 yo antler development.

Add in the nutrition variable, in non-agriculture areas it can make a big difference.

One thing is for certain though, if you shoot them at 1.5, they will never reach full potential, whatever that size may be. I have been more than happy to shoot mature 120-150" deer.

This year, for example, we had ample rain. What I have casually noticed is this year buck fawns with more visible buttons to small spikes (1-3"). The 1.5 yo deer are branched antlered this year, where typically they are 5-6" spikes.

I haven't looked at the Auburn study but here is a link to all you ever wanted to know and then some about Texas deer.

http://ckwri.tamuk.edu/researc...ch/current-research/

To brag a little, here's what were growing in NE Alabama. We cull no bucks (ever) and we shoot lots of 3.5 and older does.

145 at 4.5 years.


145 at 6.5 years.


160 at 5.5.


A good morning's hunt on one of our better clubs. The deer range from 135 to 150 and all are 4.5.

Mule deer management really can not be compared to whitetail management. Timing of hunts and rut, migration, winter range conditions, make mule deer management much different.

I do know that any yearling of either species may or may not show its antler potential. I view it pointless to "cull" yearlings on antler configuration. Killing them to reduce buck numbers/population seems fitting, but not to control genetics.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
To brag a little, here's what were growing in NE Alabama. We cull no bucks (ever) and we shoot lots of 3.5 and older does.

We cull a lot of bucks. Here's what we grow in South Texas. These are 5.5 years old.

182 gross 170 5/8 net. Book deer.



172 gross 27 inch spread

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

We cull a lot of bucks.

May I ask what criteria they are culled for...what characteristics cause you to cull them?

quote:

May I ask what criteria they are culled for...what characteristics cause you to cull them?

At the time I killed these deer we shot all spikes and all deer we aged on the hoof at 3.5 and had eight or less points.

Here's something from Texas Parks and Wildlife on a study done at the Kerr Wildlife Management Area a few years back. The short of it is that spikes can develop into decent to good deer but it takes a while and they tend to beget spikes.

Here's the complete study. It's 168 pages long so don't hit the print button unless you're serious!

Here's another study.

Here's a page compiling a bunch of studies done at the Kerr WMA.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
To brag a little, here's what were growing in NE Alabama. We cull no bucks (ever) and we shoot lots of 3.5 and older does.

145 at 4.5 years.


145 at 6.5 years.


160 at 5.5.


A good morning's hunt on one of our better clubs. The deer range from 135 to 150 and all are 4.5.

Those are some nice deer. 4.5 is young to be shooting trophies. Give those bucks two more years and you will have some slammers.

Perry

We do a lot of culling and it is all relative to what you have. Shoot the scrubs and leave the nicer deer to breed. In a bad year most yearlings are gonna be spikes. If 25% or less of your yearling are spikes it is geneetic and we take them out. Some are bucks of bred fawns but we take those out too. 3.5 year old with less than 8 points are culled, 4.5+ year old with 8 or 9 points are culled, mature bucks 150 or less are culled. Those are high standards but we have been at it for 15 years. Our herd is native, no TTT or DMP. Just age and nutrition.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Auburn University has debunked the "spike myth". Many of their captive herd that began life as spikes grew into impressive older deer and often sported more impressive racks than their counterparts that were 8 points at 1.5. Thus, the shoot spikes theory is flawed.

Age, nutrition, and genetics are the key. You can control age and nutrition to some degree, but you cannot control genetics, period. How do you cull genetically inferior does in a free range setting. Answer? You cannot. And, that doe is 50% of your genetics. That is undeniable.

On my farm, my yearlings have spikes and my 1.5 year old deer will have a small branched rack. I rarely have a 1.5 that is a basket 8, 9, or 10. However, I am able to grow these deer into 4.5 year old deer in the 130 range and the occasional 5.5 year old deer up to 160.

??? Yearling are 1.5. Am I reading this wrong.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Auburn University has debunked the "spike myth". Many of their captive herd that began life as spikes grew into impressive older deer and often sported more impressive racks than their counterparts that were 8 points at 1.5. Thus, the shoot spikes theory is flawed.

Age, nutrition, and genetics are the key. You can control age and nutrition to some degree, but you cannot control genetics, period. How do you cull genetically inferior does in a free range setting. Answer? You cannot. And, that doe is 50% of your genetics. That is undeniable.

On my farm, my yearlings have spikes and my 1.5 year old deer will have a small branched rack. I rarely have a 1.5 that is a basket 8, 9, or 10. However, I am able to grow these deer into 4.5 year old deer in the 130 range and the occasional 5.5 year old deer up to 160.

??? Yearling are 1.5. Am I reading this wrong.

Perry

Yep. Should have been 2.5, not 1.5.

Good example here:

Right to left: 1.5 spike, 2.5 6pt, 3.5 8pt, 4.5 non-typical 8 pt. Obviously, these are not the same deer, but this is about what we believe our deer reasonably attain from immaturity to maturity. After 4.5, we very rarely get one on a camera survey.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Those are some nice deer. 4.5 is young to be shooting trophies. Give those bucks two more years and you will have some slammers.

Perry

I hope we get there some day. Truth be told, we are 50 years behind Texas and most other states when it comes to deer herd management. As a state, we are only two years into a three buck per year limit. Before that, a guy could shoot a buck of any size EVERY day as well as a doe, for almost 100 days of the season. Our herd's sex and age ratios are screwed up and we are years and years from letting 4.5s walk. The three bucks pictured above are my best three from the past 20 years. Deer like that are HARD to come by in North Alabama.

Very interesting thread. Here, it seems that with our roe deer (Capreolus) quite closely related to your new world deer species, antler development first of all depends on the supply of food and thus, both on habitat quality and deer density as long as you don't feed additionally.

In other words, keep the density low and the relation between age classes and sexes belanced to get nice bucks, even though not many of them. This might not be the most profitabel approach for commercial operations, though.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Those are some nice deer. 4.5 is young to be shooting trophies. Give those bucks two more years and you will have some slammers.

Perry

I hope we get there some day. Truth be told, we are 50 years behind Texas and most other states when it comes to deer herd management. As a state, we are only two years into a three buck per year limit. Before that, a guy could shoot a buck of any size EVERY day as well as a doe, for almost 100 days of the season. Our herd's sex and age ratios are screwed up and we are years and years from letting 4.5s walk. The three bucks pictured above are my best three from the past 20 years. Deer like that are HARD to come by in North Alabama.

Looks like y'all aren't behind at all as far as your place goes, those are great deer. I would really encourage you to give your deer 2 more years. Those 135-150 class bucks in the pics have the potential to REALLY blow up. That last pic of the 3 bucks, all have/had the potential to be HUGE. I'm talking record book huge. Your genetics are GREAT, nutrition seems good, last component of a trophy is age and that part is up to y'all.

You mention you are years from letting "4.5 year olds walk". As culls or trophies? The temptation to take a 140-150 class buck is a hard urge to resist, especially if they are hanging out in front of you for any length of time. The satisfaction of letting him walk and then finding him the next year or two as a 160+ far out weighs killing another 4.5 year old 140" deer.
We were flying the ranch I hunt on Monday and those of us on the ground were talking about how much fun we have had watching the herd grow in quality. We reminisced about what we were seeing 10-15 years ago verses today. And how rewarding it has been to see the quality go up so high with just culling, age and nutrition.

Anyway. I'm not telling you how to run your program I am simply telling you what we did and how it worked. I encourage y'all to do the same, you'll love the results.

Perry

In in S. TX also and we try to manage our deer. The conditions have been very good this year and most of my doe have twins. That shows that my deer are healthy, but healthy and quality are not the same. Vapo, we try to keep our doe numbers in check and it's a difficult task. As for bucks, any jessie gets shot on site for being the pos it is. Young spikes walk, older spikes are at the bottom of the jessie(shit) level.

Just about everywhere Whitetails live there can be at least 2 months of difference in newborn fawns. This itself limits the size of the first rack. I know because I have raised some of these little buggers on bottles. DONT shoot small bodied spikes period. They have the same genetics as the larger ones and are just behind a few months. The 180" class deer we all want had the same genetics when they were with their first rack. The genetics doesn't change with age; just size changes with age.

God Bless, Louis

GREAT THREAD. I just got back from my first hunt in TX (kerr co). It was like deer heaven to a white tail novice like me.

The bodies of the bucks I've seen and taken in Wy seem bigger than the bodies of the deer I saw in Tx, but I saw more mature bucks (4.5+) in one day in Tx than I've seen in the 3 years I've hunted in Wy put together.

My hat is off to you Texans.

The WYG&F management of WT is to pretty much wipe them out. Seasons are long and limits are liberal. I enjoy WT hunting and think they taste better than our native muleys.

Kudu....Wyoming has been trying to kill of the whitetail all my life it seems. In the early '70s we hunted them around Devil's Tower and east of there. New Castle, Buelah, Sundance, Gilette, and other towns are where we hunted for many years.

Seems killing them off hasn't fared too well.....they are still there

I haven't hunted in Wyoming for a long time.....and it's my favorite place to hunt by far.....the most beautiful state in the lower 48!

If you need some help cleaning out more whitetails let me know.....I'm always happy to perform my civic duty!

quote:

The bodies of the bucks I've seen and taken in Wy seem bigger than the bodies of the deer I saw in Tx,

The deer in the hill country where you were hunting are small bodied deer. If you hunt further south deer bodies and antlers are much bigger on average. I kill two or three bucks every year on my ranch that field dress over 200 pounds.

Great thread Vapo.

I have a buddy who has a place in Laredo. Now I have some understanding of what goes on.

Very interesting

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Great thread Vapo.

I have a buddy who has a place in Laredo. Now I have some understanding of what goes on.

Very interesting

I'm learning a lot here I assure you.

Before this thread, I'd have shot a spike on sight.....no more!

I wish there was a way to get every state to manage their wildlife....It seems some only manage the fees!

I believe that "a spike is not always a spike". That is to say that there are old spikes and there are young first year deer that are not old enough to have grown anything but short "billy goat" spikes.

As far as I am concered, if a buck can grow 12-14" cow-horn spikes that are as slick as a peeled peach limb, he doesn't have the genetics to ever be anything but junk, and he needs the air let out of him.

I've read both sides of the spike issue. If it's his first set of horns I pass, if he's a 2 1/2 y/o deer, it's really good tender eatin.

As far as trophys. I only shoot short legged deer -> 5+ y/o.

A 4 1/2 y/o I do not consider mature, actually no one I know does. Now a 4 1/2 y/o that is an 8 pointer or basket horned deer needs to be culled. Nut he ain't a trophy class deer.



Now, there is one caveat. If a deer has one nice side and the other is realy goofy....tough call as that side could have been fd up in velvet. You may want to pass.



The deer below had a really goofy palmated left side the year before I shot him, well next year he grew 4 points- inferior yes, but still a good deer. Don't remember stats other than in the 60s.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJPZeTH_x1Q[/url]

Not a darn thing wrong with that buck....

Mass over comes points in my book any day!

Just added a youtube video of his last few steps.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

The bodies of the bucks I've seen and taken in Wy seem bigger than the bodies of the deer I saw in Tx,

The deer in the hill country where you were hunting are small bodied deer. If you hunt further south deer bodies and antlers are much bigger on average. I kill two or three bucks every year on my ranch that field dress over 200 pounds.

Sounds like a sweet setup you have.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Just added a youtube video of his last few steps.

Nice!