Guess it depends on the animal as well as the cart and bullet used.

If we are talking whitetail, antelope, mulie, boar sized critters, Shoulder shots are not needed assuming you have the proper bullet. The plain ole' cup-n-core bullets at a reasonable speed placed through the back of the heart, the middle of the lungs, or the bottom of the spine behind the shoulderwhich gets the lungs as well will all take down those animals mentioned in very short order and most of the time instantly. The majority of game animals I've take were w/ lung heart shots in which many times the shoulders were just nicked but not damaged and most of them fell right there or only ran a few yards. A shot I've really come to love is the high behind the shoulder shottaking out the bottom of the spine and the top of the lungs, it drops them every time and no meat is damaged. You don't even have to touch the spine, if you are shooting a high velocity expansive bullet and just get close it will paralize them (IE Magnums and NBTs but, that's a whole nother' arguement ). I can see the need for shoulder shots on bigger animals when using solids or Xs but on the smaller animals these sort of arguements are silly to say the least.

Good Luck

Reloader

I am not certain what scientific studies you refer to, but, in my hunting/research work here in B.C. with, among others, the Phd. biologist formerly in charge of the Brit. Col. Wildlife Dept., I have seen the shot placement described damage both lungs and rupture the aorta. This brings on very rapid hypovolemic shock which stops bloodflow to the brain, which in turn causes rapid death.

My major objection to the Jack O'Connor "high lung" shots is that a slight error in aim/impact which is very easily done in mountain hunting conditions means a hit on the neural spines or vertebral processes; this can and does allow the animal to get up and bugger off. I had this happen a couple of times with deer and shot them again, but, it is kinda freaky when it happens, especially when you are using your .338 Win. on Columbian Blacktails.

I think that anecdotal information can be as empirical as deliberately staged, controlled experiments, IF, it is based on actual "hands-on" field experience. How else do scientific hypotheses originate, if not as a result of an anecdotal discussion/consideration of an observed event?

quote:

I am not certain what scientific studies you refer to

Kutenay, I think am DONE with this post. your statement above is indicative you didn't read the posts above as it clearly points out the scientific study I was referring to. It really doesn't matter, and while I envy the game rich environment you live in, just because one doesn't live there doesn't make them any less qualified to proffer an opinion. Professional hunters, almost to a man, prefer the shoulder shot, especialy on game that bites back which includes the big bears and like I've stated ad nauseam, there is no right or wrong here or unethical, just preferenes based on individual experiences. I don't care for animals running off. jorge

I know many hunters [?] who shoot them in the FRONT shoulder ! LOL

I hope the next few lines save countless hundreds or thousands of pounds of meat.

If a game animal is shot in the shoulder(s), the meat can easily be salvaged. Remove the affected shoulder or ham or whatever part is now bloodshot, and knead it in cold salt water. Change the water if necessary and in a short time you will have a shoulder or part with no bloodshot and the only thing lost will be the shredded meat right around the hole.

The sooner after death the better and easier the bloodshot comes out. The bloodshot part can also be soaked overnight without any harm if time or effort will not allow the kneading. It just has to be cold enough to retard spoilage, ice in the water works great.

I have personally used this many times and it works great with very little lost meat and the taste is not in any way affected. Year before last I salvaged two front shoulders that were almost completely bloodshot, in less than 20 minutes. Only lost a couple of pounds.

Long live the shoulder shot and a bucket of cold salt water.
Joe

I reiterate my suggestion that we be more precise in defining what each of us means by a "shoulder shot" on a broadside shot by orientation to internal landmarks that form the "vital triangle" as described by "Doctari" Robertson. The vertices are: the uppermost corner of the scapula; the shoulder joint between the scapula and the upper leg; and the elbow joint between the upper leg and the lower leg. "Behind the shoulder" should mean anything behind the triangle.

quote:

Originally posted by Versifier:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Hey, is it just me or does everyone mentally insert
crosshairs to the image whenever they see a picture of a game animal?

AllanD

No Alan, it's not just you. My brother and I used to enjoy watching those nature shows and try to estimate how much each of the bigger critters would dress out to.

Between the shoulders, the "boiler room". I think that anyone so concerned about "wasting meat" that he would be taking a marginal (read "unethical") shot on a game animal shouldn't be hunting. None of the meat in the supermarket is "wasted". Now, I know that there are a few that ARE good enough shots to take head and spine shots at reasonably close range, but judging by what I see every fall during "sight-in days", most are pieplate challenged off the bench at 100yds, never mind offhand. I shoot hundreds of rounds to get ready for deer season every year, and I can roll a soda can at 250yds with my peep sighted deer rifle, but I wouldn't even consider any shot but a shoulder shot unless the deer were within 50yds, and even then it probably wouldn't occur to me that I could have tried a different shot until I was pacing off the distance to where it fell.

I also tend to think how I'm going to cook an animal that's still walking around

given a choice I actually prefer a "quartering away" shot as it allows me to let the bullet's tendency to make a mess of the initial penetration area happen on parts I don't care about and spill off surplus energy before it gets to any part I might want to eat.

an uninterrupted path into the boiler room so to speak..

But the primary goal is to put the animal DOWN

BTW, that deer that someone else was tagging? it was about 15years ago and I let them have it, the deer that is, it was a young fork antler (four point eastern count) that would barely be legal under current hunting rules.
It was a young kid with his father on his very first hunt (opening day) and the kid did hit the running deer, with 2 rounds of buckshot from under 30 yards.
one of those 00buck pellets threaded it's way between the skull and the spine collapasing the deer instantly... (Though I honestly doubt the deer would have gone another 20 yards...)


The Kid seemed so excited and his dad wanted him to wait because he saw the 50cal exit hole
but I saw it was the kid that got it and waved the dad off from stopping his son....

his dd gave me a questioning look as I walked
up and I just shook my head and smiled)

I quietly told the dad to say nothing as we "supervised" his son dressing the animal.
the traditional "you shot it, you clean it"
situation

It was a situation covered by what I personally call "Public land rules" hitting the deer doesn't count, particularly if the deer is able to run any distance greater than you can throw a your hunting arm. anchoring it is the only thing that matters, the kid definatly anchored it.

Besides (Big Grin), I had FOUR over-the-counter Doe Tags in my pocket in addition to the buck tag on my back and the "draw" doe tag I also had, so I really didn't give a damn...

and besides watching that kid's excitment was well worth it

I never filled the buck tag that year
(and truth be told most years I don't even try)
but I filled four of the five doe tags, I could have filled the fifth but my brother also got three deer and between us we were completely out of freezer space. No point in shooting meat you can't store!

AllanD

quote:

The majority of game animals I've take were w/ lung heart shots in which many times the shoulders were just nicked but not damaged and most of them fell right there or only ran a few yards. A shot I've really come to love is the high behind the shoulder shottaking out the bottom of the spine and the top of the lungs, it drops them every time and no meat is damaged

Reloader, you described my favorite broadside shot to a tee...I like to just clip both shoulders. I does drop them right there..

This Diagram may help some folks out:



As you can see you can still get the heart and major arteries that supply the lungs w/o touching the shoulder bones.

I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest w/ shoulder shooters, I hunt w/ alot of shoulder shooters and I'd place a biug wager that the deer I shoot don't travel near as far as some of the deer they busted shoulders on. Take out the motor and they aren't gonna move far if any. I've busted shoulders on many animals and they still made it just as far as if they would have been hit behind the shoulders. The only surefire DRT kill is a spine shot.

Reloader

Jorge, it was not my intent to mock or denigrate you or your opinions, I simply am not clear on the scientific studies you mentioned. Take it easy, bud, I am not trying to hurt your feelings, insult you or Ross or anything like that.

On big bears, the shoulder shot is not the best option as they are still very mobile and dangerous with one shoulder broken, this is personal, up-close experience talking. If, you ask the older guides here in B.C., I think that the majority opinion will agree with this; I would ALWAYS prefer a shot into the heart/frontal/lower lungs on a bear and I have been "in at the death" of quite a few of them.

The skeletal diagram above illustrates what I mean, a shot of the Aagard type will rupture both lungs and the aortas as well as probably break one, at least, lower shoulder, that's all I am trying to say. The upper shoulder shot often misses the vitals and just nicks an upper lung, this allows a really tough animal like an Elk to get away and that's why I don't aim there. Each to his own, I always find you a good guy and am not into a slagging match with you.

KT: I know that your intentions were fine. No problems there. We just have a different opinion. Reloader's diagram is a good one. I just aim to break bone in that area and it works for me, but I like any shot that falls into the vertical line running from the elbow to the top where the spine and shoulder meet. On a deer with "meat" over the bones, often times that area that really has no bone per se is mistankenly called the "shoulder" so that whole area works well.

Take a look at the impala below. Not the best picture as he is bending down, but were he standing straight up ( like the one behind him in the background), if you just follow the leg up and aim for the center of what can be called the shoulder (but recognizing that in some animals there is no bone there) you are essentially performng a high heart/lung area where the vitals lie and also tends to incapacitate the animal and keep him from running. Where I don't like to aim is the area behind the leg area often called the "crease" or where bowhunters tend to aim as that almost always results in a "death run" which I don't care for. So a case can be made for a semantics issue here like one poster cleverly alluded to. jorge

Count me in the lung shot/high heart shot group on all species except brown bears and elephants.

465H&H

I suspect that most people on this thread are talking about the exact same thing and don't even know it. That was the point of my post on the preceding page, but I could have been much more explicit. Thanks Reloader, for the skeleton diagram....a picture is worth a thousand words.

I am always surprised by the number of people that don't actually know the internal anatomy of their quarry, especially the location of the shoulder bones.

I suspect that most "shoulder shooters" are actually aiming for the center of the shoulder muscle, and not actually at any bones.

Aiming for the center of "shoulder mass" on a perfect broadside shot on almost all big game animals will not result in "broken shoulders". You'd have to hit in the upper third of the torso, too far forward, or in-line with the brisket to actually do that.

Quartering shots are different....easy to take out one shoulder (bone) and the vitals in that situation. And quartering away shots are where the "behind the shoulder" shot makes most sense. Placing a bullet just behind the shoulders on a fully broadside elk, moose or bison will often result in the animal being hit too far back to deflate both lungs. Lots of livers get hit on this shot.

I will also personally attest that high chest shots (scapula) are not a great idea on elk. I had an errant shot go there on a nice bull (the one in my signature banner) once. Too low to hit spine, to high to damage the lungs much and one little hole through the scapula on each side. I was using a 300 Win Mag with 200gr NPs and got good penetration. Unfortunately, that elk went A LONG bloody ways....6 hours and 800m of tracking later, I found it still alive but too weak to get away and had to give it one more.

On deer or sheep you can get away with it, but elk and moose you can't. And bison, well don't even get me started...there is a tonne of "dead space" in their upper chest.

FWIW,
Canuck

quote:

I suspect that most "shoulder shooters" are actually aiming for the center of the shoulder muscle, and not actually at any bones.

Bingo, Canuck, thanks, that gets us closer. The middle of the shoulder muscle works for me. Here's another picture. It's a buffalo, but that shot is about as center of the shoulder muscle as it gets, right below that white spot on the...shoulder jorge

Jorge,

Here's where I'd put my bullet...



...and in this particular instance, it probably would break the humerus (lower shoulder).

I agree with your comment about "the crease"...in this case it would not result in as swift a death. The "crease" is most effective on an animal quartering away.

If I took this shot with a bow, I'd actually try just a little higher that the red dot, to avoid any bone on the way in. A little left wouldn't hurt much either, but I wouldn't go all the way to the crease.

My 2c CAD,
Canuck

Yup, that's why I found that the famous "high lung shot" of JO'C was not always such a good idea, whereas the shot which is essentially into the lower-middle shoulder muscle by holding between the legs has given me more sudden drops without flops than anything else.I made a few liver and gut shots on deer by holding "behind" the shoulder and although I never lost an animal, I tracked a few until I was told where to whack 'em by a more experienced hunter.

I would bet that more bull Elk are lost by this than any other animal, my younger brother shot a B&C bull in the Kootenays with a shoulder shot almost twenty years back, it took off and was actually running on three legs when both he and my cousin shot it and finished it off. The head mount is in the old Brewery building in Nelson, B.C. and it is identical to one I almost got in the same place last Sept., a real beauty.

Jorge,

I think your shot placement on your buff was PERFECT, and I think Doctari would agree!

Here's a couple more pics of "shoulder" shots, that hit no bone, but where the animals expired VERY quickly (the were all heart shot)...

Don_G and an impala...


Me and Zebra...hard to see entrance, but its right in the upside down V...this one dropped in its tracks...


Me and kudu...


Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Yup, that's why I found that the famous "high lung shot" of JO'C was not always such a good idea, whereas the shot which is essentially into the lower-middle shoulder muscle by holding between the legs has given me more sudden drops without flops than anything else.I made a few liver and gut shots on deer by holding "behind" the shoulder and although I never lost an animal, I tracked a few until I was told where to whack 'em by a more experienced hunter.

I would bet that more bull Elk are lost by this than any other animal, my younger brother shot a B&C bull in the Kootenays with a shoulder shot almost twenty years back, it took off and was actually running on three legs when both he and my cousin shot it and finished it off. The head mount is in the old Brewery building in Nelson, B.C. and it is identical to one I almost got in the same place last Sept., a real beauty.

Kutenay, you and I are on the exact same page.

I usually split the legs with my lower vertical crosshair, on any kind of a quartering shot. Or line the crosshair up with the front legs on a full broadside. Sometimes, like in Jorge's impala pic above, when the animal is at an odd angle, or one or both of the legs are in an odd position, I just imagine a basketball in the front of the chest cavity and shoot for the middle of it.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck: That's it!!! right there where the red dot is and where all the bullet holes are. Perfect for me and I think it's an accurate statement to call that a shoulder shot. agree? Great pictures BTW. jorge

I'm for the lung shot. It's a large target and a couple of shredded lungs is fatal FOR SURE. Being a chef I like to avoid meat damage as much as possible. I've seen massive meat damage from shoulder shots-that's not even arguable it's a fact. I always have bang flops with shoulder shots....well moose might be bang......... ...... .... flop. But they still don't go anywhere after the shot. With the lung shot you could shoot foreward and get the shoulder area or backward and get the liver...both will do the trick in a short time. A shoulder shot with poor penetration can be a bit of a problem. There is never a concern with penetration shooting through the ribs and hitting the lungs.

the chef

quote:

I think it's an accurate statement to call that a shoulder shot. agree?

I don't call it a "shoulder shot" per se, because I am not actually aiming for the shoulder...I aim for the top of the heart. On broadside shots the shoulders happen to be in the way. On quartering shots they may or may not be, depending on the angle.

If one did not understand physiology and mistakenly aimed for the near shoulder on an angled shot, it would likely have a crappy result.

I also do not like to confuse people with the impression I try to "break the shoulder", since that misunderstanding is one of my pet peeves.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

I've seen massive meat damage from shoulder shots-that's not even arguable it's a fact.

Chef, The fact that you witnessed it may not be arguable, but implying that it always happens or always could happen is very arguable, as it depends on a host of factors.

High velocity, frangible bullet, close shot....oh yeah, there'll be massive damage.

Slower moving, bonded bullet, medium to long range....far, far less damage. Eat right up to the hole in some cases.

I treasure meat as much as anyone, but first and foremost in my mind is reducing the risk of loss and any suffering. So I shoot for the heart. My preferred angle is quartering away, so that I can thread the needle and take out both lungs, the top of the heart and avoid damaging any meat in the shoulders. I have whacked a bunch of my Dad's bison that way and ruined almost no meat. Easy to do under semi-controlled circumstances. But in the field, hunting wild game, I take what is given to me, and sometimes that means ruining a little meat.

If you stick to only lung shots (ie. avoiding hitting any shoulder meat), you will severly limit your shot opportunities. The lungs don't go nearly as far past the crease behind the shoulder as a lot of people think. The animal will have to be directly broadside or very close to it, to get both lungs. If an elk, for example, is quartering slightly toward you, or stopped broadside-ish but has its head turned and looking at you, shooting behind the shoulder will probably mean you get only one lung, and if you're lucky the liver too. Probably a track job.

Aim for the heart in that example and you'll damage some meat on the near shoulder but miss the far one, and you'll center-punch both lungs. That elk won't get far at all and it'll dump 5 gallons of blood on its way there.

Anyhoo, this is just MHO, based on learning from some mistakes, a lot of successes and being a close study along the way.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:


I also do not like to confuse people with the impression I try to "break the shoulder", since that misunderstanding is one of my pet peeves.

Cheers,
Canuck

This is exactly what I think causes the arguments! To me, using the pic above with the red dot, this is a "heart" shot, or what I would call top of the heart. When someone says "shoulder shot" to me they're aiming for the joint of the shoulder and spine. This is proven by the following statement about "breaking it down".

I think this is the first thread about shoulder shooting thats reached a point of major agreement! Nate

quote:

This is exactly what I think causes the arguments! To me, using the pic above with the red dot, this is a "heart" shot, or what I would call top of the heart. When someone says "shoulder shot" to me they're aiming for the joint of the shoulder and spine. This is proven by the following statement about "breaking it down".

Yes! Exactly my point.

Now, shooting for the junction of the spine and scapula is a legit shot, but I don't think thats what most people actually mean when they say shoulder shot. And "breaking" both shoulders is virtually impossible. In general, I think one is better served in most cases to perforate the middle of the boilerroom, and live with what bone or meat damage goes along with it. "Behind the shoulder" or "shoulder-spine" shots really only work like they are intended if the quarry is perfectly broadside. And there is less margin for error.

Cheers,
Canuck

This is where I am so long as I have a solid rest, am comfortable/confident with the distance:

Those pix show what I was trying to convey in my initial post on this, no animal struck in that spot by an appropriate caliber using a suitable bullet will go far; nothing kills like hypovolemic shock, except a direct brain hit. Most northern Moose I have seen shot took one in that spot, laid down and quickly sighed, gurgled and peacefully became roasts. The Elk I shot there have taken about 20-30 steps, laid down and died a bit slower while the deer have seemingly died as they fell. I never shoot anywhere else now as I find this works so consistently.

Bob; Thanks for the pictures. Botto line is for the most part we were all talking about the same spot more or less as the Canuck's "red dot' clearly illustrated. Myself and most here call that the shoulder, albeit it's only the muscular part. Save for one or two, this has been a great thread, at least as far as I'm concerned. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
This is where I am so long as I have a solid rest, am comfortable/confident with the distance:

When a "shoulder" shot is mentioned, this is what it should be talking about. Clearly illustrated like this it defines a shoulder shot.

When aiming lower you will be hitting shoulder muscles but your true aiming point is the top of the heart.

We should save this thread to repost the next time the shoulder shooting argument starts! Nate

You mean to tell me that we are getting a mutual agreement....


I guess we are gonna have to spark up a NBT thread so it doesn't get to calm around the fire

Ya'll have a gooden'

Reloader

Grew up shooting behind the shoulder, halfway up. Works well.

Minnesota DNR recommended shooting deer in front of the shoulder for quick kills. I tried that on one buck that fall that fell so fast I lost him on recoil and spent about 30 min looking for him in the swamp grass. Thay stated the lung shot was for cast bullets.

If I can get a shot between the shoulders as Saeed said that is what I perfer. Both of our recent black bears were taken that way behind the close shoulder and out in front of the off shoulder. They dropped in their tracks.

I like the heart intact, pumping blood out of the holes I just placed in the animal. I believe this helps speed up blood pressure drop in the animal.

What Canuck said!

I think the red dot shot would be perfect.

The upside down V their legs make points to the spot everytime.

Snapper,

I don't know how much larger game you have shot, but just in case you didn't know, shooting half way up on moose or elk can be a big mistake. A shot so placed on larger game will get you high lung (takes longer for the game to go down). Throw in a bobble and you are shooting into nothing but meat.

I try to shoot for the "orange" centered between the shoulders one third of the way up. I just ignore the bone.

I shot too far back a few times trying to hit the back of the lungs (attempting to save meat) and decided to commit to shooting for the vital center. If there are some bone frags and blood shot meat I clean it up when I dress the animal.

Snapper is right about unplugging the top of the heart...Death follows shortly thereafter!

I vote for ethical shots to vitals, DRT if possible while minimizing meat- loss.

It's fun when it works that way.

Thanks for the contributions, y'all--

Here are some further big game shot placement tips and diagrams:

Deer

http://www.chuckhawks.com/where_to_shoot.htm

Bear

http://www.inberg.ca/hunting_e...ack_bear_anatomy.htm

Elk-- inc good diagrams for Where to Aim - Quartering Toward / Away, etc

http://www.dundeesportsmansclu...elkshotplacement.pdf

AK Game: bear, moose, caribou

http://wildlife.alaska.gov/ind...adfg=huntalaska.shot

Here are some great considerations for African game, esp when bow hunting

http://www.archery-engineering...e_shot_placement.pdf

Lions

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/af...e/lion_part02_01.htm

Elephants

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/af...ephant_part03_01.htm

Or, one could carry this field guide on the next trip to Africa:

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/af...unter/store/spfg.htm

Happy Hunting!

On the whitetail deer the shoulders (shoulder joints) are actually forward from the front legs (towards the head) of the animal. The shoulder blades are high and, too, a bit forward from the front legs. To me, the shot that gives the most room for error is to line the vertical reticle up with the front leg and the cross 1/3 to 1/2 way up from the bottom of the deer. This is right in the region of the heart with all its arteries with lungs all around it. You will definitely hit lungs with this shot and maybe the heart or its arteries. If you happen to hit a bit farther back than you aimed you have more lung and the liver. If you hit a little higher than you aimed you have lung and or shoulder blade and back. If you shoot a little forward of where you aimed you still have lungs and the shoulder joint itself. If you hit a little lower than you aim you still have heart and lungs. I have never lost a whitetail deer shooting where I've outlined above and they usually travel a very short distance, and sometimes falling right there. Well, that's my nickels worth.

Oh, by the way, that's my aim point with a bow as well, and it works well.

On the big stuff that will hurt you the shoulders are always the best bet but on things I like to eat always the very rear of the shoulder and a little low. Hard to run far with destroyed lungs and blood spewing out of the nose.

Let's all get together for a rowsing rendition of "Kumbiya".

This same basic question, on a mainly Texas Forum would have turned in to the
great, "All That Should Be Taken Are Head And Neck Shots' diatribe.

Counting myself, of the people that list where they are from, it appears only 3 Texans have voiced an opinion on this.

I don't remember where or when I saw them, but my fuzzy recollection, brings images to mind of a series of pictures/diagrams that someone produced at some point in the past, that showed the "Kill Zone" of several different animals, and while certainly a properly placed bullet into the neck or head will drop most stuff on the spot DRT, in the real world of hunting, we don't always have the option of that perfect, broadside shot at a standing, relaxed animal.

I started out in 1970 with my first deer with a shoulder/behind the shoulder shot at an 8 point buck that ran about 25 or 30 yards before piling up.

In the 38 years since that shot was made, I have never seen any compelling reason to change my aim point.

When I look at an animal, any animal thru the scope or across the irons, I aim for somewhere in the box formed by where the neck leaves the front of the shoulder, up to what would be considered the withers on a horse, back to an area about 3 to 5 inches behind the shoulder, and down to with in 2 to 3 inches or so of the floor of the chest cavity.

Yes, I have had animals die on the spot, depending on just exactly where in that box I placed the bullet, and I have had animals cover 100 yards before realizing they were running on empty, again depending on where in that box my bullet was placed, but the key point, is that I have NEVER lost an animal if I put the bullet, regardless the caliber or brand, into that box. JMO.

If I needed to try and anchor the animal or at least keep it from going far, I shoot toward the front of the box, trying to break the front shoulders/legs and get the animal off its feet for a finisher.

One thing I have noticed, and this may be just a Texas thing, no one seems to have the stomach for breaking an animal down, if necessary, and then putting in a finisher.

I am not sure if this is an "Ego" thing, or the fact that some hunters have just never had to take an offered shot and make the best of it, but have always been in a situation to take what are basically bench rest shots. AJMO.

I go for the behind the shoulder heart/lung shot on whitetails.This shot,30-06,150 gr @ 2700 fps,@ 150 yds took out the arteries on top of the heart,DRT,not even a twitch,no edible meat ruined.I would consider a shoulder shot to be a bad shot in this instance.I can make a lot of jerky out of a shoulder.
This year,I passed on a few marginal shots ,ended up getting skunked,but I had a few chances.I would rather hold my fire, than ruin alot of meat.
On something bigger,A shoulder shot would be called for.

If I'm hunting in open terrain where a bullet-struck animal can run and I can easily find it, I don't mind lung shots. However, if I'm hunting somewhere thick, or near cliffs, if I can, the bullet is going to hit the shoulder.