Since I've managed to cause a slightly heated discussion, I'll see if I can't really get peoples opinions.

Which 30cal and why? I have 2 .308's, but am probably getting rid of one. Neither are terribly accurate and I'm probably picking up a M70 in whatever cal I want. Which should I choose? (I'm going to run some numbers and maybe I'll post that tomorrow.)

Should I get a .30-06, since the mags only have a marginal gain?

Should I get a mag and which one?

This rifle is for traveling and hunting. My deer hunting is better done with a .45-70 or shotgun. Bear hunting with a pistol.

I don't want a short mag, because I want my rifles to have similar length actions.

Thanks,
QD

I have 2 .308's, but am probably getting rid of one. Neither are terribly accurate

{note to self do not buy used .308 from quickdraw...}

Before you go too far with your assumptions, ask yourself just one thing:

How do you know that the .300s only offer "marginal" gains over the .30-06?

I'd heard these same opinions before myself. The trouble is, the guys who voiced them hadn't managed to shoot anything with the .300s, and not very much with the .30-06, either........

The truth is, if the .300s are only marginally better than the .30-06, then you might as well forget the .30-06 as well as your .308 and get a .300 Savage - it oughta be just as good as the .30-06 if we're to follow this logic to its rightful conclusion!

AD

The 300 vs 30/06 is always contested by both sides, but there can be no question that the 300 wins the power and flat trajectory contest. For me the gain is very useful so I have no desire or need of anything like a 30/06.
For a traveling gun that can be used anywhere on just about everything I can't see a better choice than a 300 magnum of some persuasion.

[ 08-18-2002, 06:46: Message edited by: John S ]

let me pose a question to you, is there any particular round in the .30cal spectrum (from .300whisper - 30/378 wby mag) that you're particularly enamored about?

[ 08-18-2002, 06:47: Message edited by: Curtis_Lemay ]

From your post on the other thread:

Here's what I know I want: I want a .375H&H and a .30 cal (Haven't decided which caliber). I want controlled feeding, so that means Win M70 or Mauser.

If a 375 is on agenda then I think either the 300 H&H or 300 Wby are the good choices if the rifle is to be a Model 70.

The M70 in 30/06 or 300 Winchester has a shorter bolt thow than the 375, whereas the 300 H&H or 300 Wby will use the identical action.

It is true that you could shorten the bolt stop and ejector blade in either a 30/06 or 300 Win so the bolt travel will be the same as the 375 but in the process you compromise the CRF design. This occurs because when the bolt is pulled back it will uncover a cartridge in the magazine but will not have yet ejected the case or cartridge in the bolt. This can allow double feeding and hence jamming to occur.

I will leave it to others to debate 300 H&H/375 H&H Vs 300Wby/375 H&H

Mike

[ 08-18-2002, 06:53: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Sure the .300 Magnums have a little bit more energy and a slightly flatter trajectory than the 30/06 but the gain is very small for the cost.

The cost is heavier recoil that many find beyond their tolerance. The cost is a heavier, longer rifle. In your case I recall you want a SS rifle with a plastic stock so a .300 mag will weigh 1/4 lb more and be 2" longer.

Another consideration is that the typical magnums are belted and this means poor headpace control, lower case life, head separations and much higher powder cost.

The 30/06 Springfield is by far the most popular cartridge. It's for good reason.

But Curtis makes a point. What do you like? If you like a cartridge you can make it work. Sure the .300 mags have about the meanest recoil there is but like a boxer you can get hardened to it and get your trigger finger back with regular sessions with the .22 LR. The biggest I would go is the .300 WSM.

I would not be in the least concerned about having the same bolt travel. I go from one rifle to the next and it's all built into my subconcous.

Quickdraw:

300 vs. 30-06....advantage to 300 is 4" less drop @ 400 yds when both are zeroed @ 250. Worth it???

Killing power....since both shoot the same bullet, the only difference is impact velocity. If you beleive that kinetic energy kills animals, then you might consider a magnum. However most knowledgeable folks agree that bullet dia. and bullet performance (plus placement of course) far outweigh a couple hundred fps. of velocity. You will notice a bigger difference in killing power at some folks keyboards than in the field.

So...if you really "WANT" a 300 buy it and be happy, if you just want effeciency.....30-06

Your previous thread sparked a lot of "soapbox" opinions about lots of things. You (and especially they) talked about various levels of custom rifle.

Why are you considering custom? What is the goal? What do you want to improve over a factory piece? Remember, I'm not against customs (all my current rifles are custom) But what are you hoping to gain? It helps to have an idea of what you are trying to accomplish before you select a custom job of whatever level.

Hope ya get some help this time-JimF

I went from a 30-06 to the 300 Wby and have reverted back to the 30-06 class for now. To me, the trajectory wasn't worth the recoil. I had a 257 Wby before the 300 Wby and that was an entirely different story. It has the same trajectory with WAY less recoil. Since you're going to have a 375 for the big stuff, it might not be a bad idea to move down to a 257 or 280 for your other rifle.

[ 08-18-2002, 08:51: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

Thought I might add that I have a SS M70 in 270 (22" bbl. fwt contour) and a SS M70 338 WM (cut at 22")... these two rifles, according to their serial #'S, were made about one day apart in New Haven... very fortuitous... they obviously belong together! I think for NA that a 270 W paired with a 338 WM is about as practical a pairing as can be conceived... food for thought. The 300 Mag's, in my opinion, combine (in a compromise) the flat shooting quality of the 270 W and the hard-hitting quality of the 338 WM.

Brad

Yes, I guess some folks might see a bigger difference in killing power from their keyboards. Just like some folks might not believe a 'glass stock offers anything over a wooden model. Or the really well engineered custom rifle offering nothing over the high priced junk most factories are turning out these days. Or the short barreled lightweight rifle being no good for backpack hunting compared to a 9 pound standard model. How about the straight tubed scope gathering as much light as a scope with a 36mm objective lense? The premium bullet being totally unnecessary for elk or other large game?
IF they ever spent any hunting time to speak of in S.E. Alaska or the rain forests of Africa or the coastal areas of Oregon or Washington they might find a stable and weather proof 'glass stock to be much more practical and reliable. If they've ever actually backpack hunted the mountains for sheep or goat they'd see some merit for the lighter and shorter rifle, especially if they're a bit older like a good friend of mine who is in the NWT right now, doing exactly that type of hunt. If they'd sat in deer stands morning and evening for a number of years or spent 50+ mornings and evenings in an African leopard blind they'd possibly appreciate the superior light gathering abilities of a large objective lense. Had a conventional bullet or two break up and fail to kill an animal they'd invested much time and money in pursuit of. And, maybe if they'd actually hunted and killed enough game in their life they might be able to tell the difference in effectiveness between two cartridges!

[ 08-18-2002, 20:09: Message edited by: John S ]

Wow, John, that was a mouthful!

I guess if "all" the .300s manage to do is shoot a bit flatter than the old, iconic, Sacred Cow .30-06, then you could also say that "all" a .30-06 offers over a .300 Savage is a flatter trajectory as well. In truth, the .30-06 does much more that shoot flatter than the .300 Savage: It retains and delivers more energy at all ranges as well - materially aiding in killing power to a very significant degree. In other words, it hits harder at all ranges.

This is the edge that a .300 magnums bring to the table (besides a flatter trajectory) over the .30-06. They retain more energy and hit harder at all ranges. That's the sort of edge that can make the difference between a hit and a miss, or else a trophy on the ground in short order or else a long chase. Maybe that's why the vast preponderance of Weatherby Award winners have been .300 magnum shooters (many don't own a Weatherby rifle or choose the .300 Weatherby cartridge verison), and these fellows tend to have vast experience - far beyond anything most hunters will ever come close to in several lifetimes.

I started hunting with the '06 thirty years ago for mule deer and elk, as well as other cartridges later on. About twenty years ago, I used .300 Winchester for the first time on these same animals, and I've used the .300 for elk almost exclusively since 1994. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the .300s visibly whack elk a lot harder and put them on the ground much quicker than the .30-06 does, not to mention making hitting at longer distances a lot easier. From Alaska to Mexico, and from Oregon to Africa, I've taken over 100 big game animals of all sizes (up to 2,000 lbs.) with the .300 Winchester, and it's much, much more than a glorified .30-06, so don't let the pilgrims bullshit you that it's some other way: It isn't!

AD

Allen,
No way buddy. It just isn't like it seems! You've misinterpretted the results, spent way too much time in the bush. Basically, you've been sold a bill of goods by the manufacturers and custom gun makers and they're laughing all the way to the bank! Thanks to reading all of these hunting boards I've learned that all of my hunting experience didn't really teach me a damned thing!

[ 08-18-2002, 21:14: Message edited by: John S ]

As you can read Quickdraw there are as many opinions on cartridges as there are riflemen. Many are right answers and the overlap is there so as long as you pick something that you like it will do the job.

But if you spend $6,600 on a custom rifle you are going to be stuck with it. Yank the trigger once on game and spend all day into dark trailing some animal because the recoil was too much and you will remember these threads.

While I like .30 caliber rifles somehow I don't think they offer that much more real effect on game as a 7mm. I think you have to go up to .35 and maybe even .338 as others suggest to get that effect.

But if you husband your resources you can have it all as long as you don't blow it on a single gun!

Right now I have a couple of .300 Magnums. They are both belted cases so I have to watch the head separations and throw out much more brass. Rimless cases are the way to go if reloading is contemplated. I give the .375 H&H a pass on this as few shoot them much and new or like new cases should be loaded for a DGR anyway.

So here is my list of choices for a traveling cartridge in the .30 range. 30/06, .270 Win, 7mm WSM, 7mm Rem Mag and .300 WSM. if you are a tough guy with nerves of steel then try a .300 Mag. It does not matter how big you are. It's mind control on the mean .300 Mags. The development of the 7mm Rem mag came from a very experianced rifleman/outfitter who found that the very worse shooting was done by dudes with .300 mags. The worse record on coastal Brown Bears is held by the .300 mags also. The .300 mag dudes take the most shots of any cartridge to down their bear. Not a good thing.

Read this site http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html

And think ahead on future developments. Right now the technology jump may well be with stronger bullets like the Barnes XLC or GS types. This will mean that lighter bullets will do as much real work as the Partitions that we shoot now that loose so much weight on striking game. This could mean that .30 caliber ends up in the too big for long range game and too small for Africa catagory. That time might be today.

[ 08-18-2002, 22:43: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

Here is some objective performance data and recoil data. Hopefully this will help in your decision. Velocity data is from Nosler Manual #4, with 180 grain partition for all cartridges.

Muzzle velocity:
300Sav: 2502
308Win: 2718
30-06Sprg: 2872
300WinMag: 3160

300/400 yard energy (ft lbs):
300Sav: 1572/1330
308Win: 1887/1606
30-06: 2128/1819
300WM: 2616/2551

400yard traj(250yd zero).
300Sav: -22.5
308Win: -18.7
30-06: -16.5
300WM: -13.3

Recoil in ft/lbs (8 pound rifle)
300Sav: 14.2
308Win: 17.5
30-06: 22.9
300WM: 29.3

So there is your objective comparisons of ballistic performance. There are real differences in velocity, energy, trajectory, and recoil. No free lunches. Only you can decide which one will make you happy.

I enjoy my 30-06 and .308s. My .338WM is powerful, but just not much fun to shoot. To me.

Here are links to calculators used to come up with these figures. They give useful information on comparing ballitics of given cartridges.

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.htm

Good luck in your choice.

MM

[ 08-18-2002, 23:14: Message edited by: MontanaMarine ]

I say get the one you like. If you are a reloader then you can adjust the loads the way you like them. I have a 300Wby. For hunting I use 200gr NozlerPT's and for practice 150gr cast. There is a big differance from 3000fps and 1400fps.
Fuzz

Gentlemen

I guess the fight goes on
I have choosen the 300 wby mag because it offers a lot more that the 3006 league in reach and peformance. I can't see my gun vault without a 300 mag. 7mm is also a very interesting caliber that has alot going for it.

Belted cases lasts long if you have a camber that is not to big and doesn't full size cases every reload.
I have seen cases in 300 wsm that have expanded too much and almost impossible to get more than three reloads from, because of too large camber.

/ JOHAN

[ 08-19-2002, 00:15: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

quickdraw,

With 26 inch barrels on bench guns and using single base powders (that is, not Reloader powders) these are the peak velocities I have add with 180 grain bullets before accuracy fell off.

30/06 2850
300 Win 3150
300 Wby 3250

Pressures in the two magnums are bit higher. The reason for this is that it is common for calibers with big case capacities for the bore size to maintain peak accuracy to higher pressures.

In the real world of shooting, my experience has always been that velocities in the 3100 to 3200 area seem to provide much flatter trajectories than do velocities in the 2800 area.

Also, in general terms, calibers with bigger case capacities for the bore, such as 300 Mag Vs 30/06, are more likely to shoot different loads to the same point, more likely to shoot to the group from either a cold clean barrel or a barrel with cold hard fouling.

Mike

This "Only a marginal gain" line of thought is BS. With my 300 RUM I'm shooting 240's faster than a 30-06 can shoot 180's. Seems like more than a "marginal" gain to me.

It's almost as bad as the "The 300 Magnums are all the same" line of thought. I can easily shoot 220's faster than a 300 WSM can shoot 180's. That's about the same difference as there is between a 300 Wby and a 308 Win.

To add another data point to the comparison made above:

300 RUM, 240 SMK:

Muzzle velocity: 2978

300/400 yd energy: 3568/3237

400 yd trajectory: -13.5"

Recoil energy: 48.9

As you can see from that last stat, there is a price to be paid. How well/if you can handle double the recoil will be up to you. With all the 30's available you should be able to find one that suits your performance/recoil needs perfectly.

Good info Jon,

Your 300 RUM hits as hard at 400 yards as a 30-06 at the muzzle. With over twice the recoil.

No one in their right mind could construe THAT as a marginal gain.

MM

30-06 EVERY TIME !

I don't give a hoot if a ".300 Ultra Quick Latest and Greatest" will give better performance! With proper bullets, the .30-06 is capable of taking any animal on the North American continent (and most anything on any other). P L U S , if the situation dictates, I can go down the road to ANY place in any po-dunk town that sells ammunition and find a VARIETY of 30-06 ammunition rather than having my hunting trip end because they don't happen to stock my chosen calibre or they have a grande total of one bullet weight option. If I wan't REAL performance, I will just buy a .416 and load it with 300 grain bullets.

Personally, I don't think people should be able to vote in this country if they can't prove that they own or have access to three things . . .

1) a Colt 1911
2) a Ruger 10/22
3) ANY 30-06 (preferably a Winchester)

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-19-2002, 02:46: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

The fact is the 300 RUM is a awesome round trouble is that the 06 generally hits plenty hard for the hunting I do, Mule deer, whitetails and Elk. For the first two plenty out to at least 400 yards and elk to 300 yards for sure. I try to even guess where I would need what a 300 RUM puts out with reloads and I feel my 300 win mag fills t he 400 yard elk load problem fine. The RUMs are just gun nut cartridges to burn barrels with and have their fun.

.....next?

GEE:

I guess the obvious conclusion is that an animal killed by a 300 Ultrawhammyboomer is more dead than one killed by a 30-06. I've owned two 300 wby rifles and two 30-06. I've shot more game with the 300's than the '06's and they all died equally dead.

Over the years and after over 80 head of game of deer size and up, with many different calibers, I've simply tired of the cannons and become more fond of moderate calibers and lighter rifles than in the past. I don't own anything burning over 60 gr. of powder and don't plan on going there.

I think for your world battery, the 375 is a given, and any 'ol 30 or 7mm caliber is fine as the second (more useful) rifle. I'd personally pick an '06 but as I mentioned earlier, if a sexy 300 is what blows your skirt up....rock on.

Practical rifles to the right, magic wands to the left.

JimF

[ 08-19-2002, 07:02: Message edited by: JimF ]

Someone may be interested in this article.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading_subpage.htm

JonA,

I agree with you but my point was that there is some performance you just don't need. If I'm gonna go hunting, I'm gonna go hunting. I will not take the 700 yard elk shot because that's not what I go into the field for. Hunting means getting closer as far as I'm concerned and the .300 ULTRAQUICKANDFLAT just has a way of destroying peoples' ability to make shot selections and it gives them little incentive to improve their fieldcraft.
Hell, maybe I should just buy a bow, I'm startin' to talk like those crazy buggers!

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

JohnTheGreek

One thing that puzzled me about your earlier post was that one your main points for the 30/06 was ammo availability.

On that basis I don't know why for a bigger gun you would go 416 rather than 375.

Mike

"This rifle is for traveling and hunting. My deer hunting is better done with a .45-70 or shotgun. Bear hunting with a pistol.

I don't want a short mag, because I want my rifles to have similar length actions."
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna consolidate my gun collection in the next year and clean out some unproductive guns for a nice over / under and two fine hunting rifles. I want these two rifles to be my main rifles for the rest of my life! (And I'm 21.) I'm going to a good gunshow this weekend and might pick up some rifles.

Here's what I know I want: I want a .375H&H and a .30 cal (Haven't decided which caliber). I want controlled feeding, so that means Win M70 or Mauser.

My game plan is to eventually have the rifles refinished in a teflon matte finish. I'm going to put them in good synthetic stocks. (I want to minimize maintenance and I'm hard on things.) Of course they'll either end up w/ nice Leupolds or fine European optics in good rings and bases.

Any suggestions on actions? Should I buy new or buy used and plan on having them rebarreled down the road? Will CZ rifles last my lifetime?

Beartooth Bullets ran an excellent article on the minimal gain of the 300 mags. Beartooth Article Should I just stick w/ the .30-06?"

So, what are you using the 30 caliber for?

You use a 45/70 or shotgun on deer. What else do you use the light rife, or for that matter, the heavy rifle, for?

Maybe I missed something, but this post looks like just another designed to stir up some trouble.

You want a 2.85 length 30 caliber. That means 300 H&H. 2.82 is the 300 Wby. And, I think the RUMS are also 2.85.

Pick one. Ain't a hill of beans difference in their performance, or handloaded performance.

Better get that rock chucker working, because with those calibers, you are going broke unless you reload.

Come to think of it, you are going to burn up a hell of a lot of powder.

Where are you "traveling and hunting" and for what game?

The boys have done a pretty good job of stating the major points of the mags. If you are hunting big bears, or elk, they didn't get that way by getting close to humans, with rifles, during hunting season. If you want to bag a big one, minimum shot range is probably going to be 375-400 yards, unless, you are either lucky, or, if it's a bear, he's hungry, and you are dinner.

So, you might consider either a couple H&H's, which are a bit short of the velocity of the rums, or, a couple rums. You give up magazine capacity with the rums, however.

You ask about CZ rifles. I have two, and they are built like bank vaults. Wonder why all these wildcat guys use the 550 Magnum action??

The 22 I have from them is one hole, when I do my part, at 25-50 yards.
First time I shot it, at 25, couldn't see the second hole. Since the first one was in the middle of the x, I was thinking I pulled it. Spotter put it in the same hole.

Don't know if there 30 fire like that, but savages are supposed to be the most accurate rifles on the market.

Think with a glass stock, a CZ in 30 might be pretty good, too.

How much do you want to shoot the rifles?

Do you have time to reload a bunch, and if so, how often do you shoot?

Great thing about 308 and 30-06 is you can buy ammo for cheaper then you can reload it, and, a lot of it shoots REAL well.

However, if you want that elk at 400 yards, and can't figure out the difference between 17 inches of drop, and 9 inches of drop, and you are young, love recoil, and don't flinch, then the 30-378 and RUM are your rifles.

s

s

Mike375

I have a who lot of .416 available because I reload and there is always, in a worst case scenario, .375 brass about to build .416 Rem. If I reloaded smaller calibres, I would be less concerned with ammo availability but I can't justify it because of what one can buy .308 or 30-06 ammunition for. When hunting, I always take A LOT of .416s just in case. I think I took 150 rounds with me to Zim last November. The young Mr. Barnard (my PH) must have thought I planned on ridding the area of the vets.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

Really not much more to be said,, Except to ask the important and relevant questions when deciding on any rifle/cartidge combo.

Type of cover hills
Size and type of game/trophy size?
Amount of range time aquired?
Sensitivity to recoil?

For example the 308 made a perfect rifle in a M70 fwt for my nephew a afirst rifle. and for the type of close cover moose hunting he will do it is stillll fine.
I tend to hunt Elk and moose on more mountainous country where the 3000/180 gr load from a 300 Win Mag or Wby is needed. I shoot 600 rounds of centetrfire a year and my nephew shoots 50. He shoots a small,handy rifle well. As a dedicated deer rifle, I am not a fan of 30 cal of any sort as you do not need the recoil or power of a belted 30 and a 270-280 gives all the goods at any range under any conditions I encounter across the whole province.

BR

I shoot an older 1960 MarkV in 300Wby cause I just like shooting it. I don't care if an '06 kills as well or not, to me the '06 just boring.

My advice to anyone looking for a rifle is to find someone who has one, in the caliber and make that you want, then go shoot it. If you can't handle the recoil or it just isn't your cup of tea, you ain't out any cash.

I think alot of hunters buy the larger mangums because their smaller rifle just crippled last year. I always tell my hunters to learn to shoot first then buy a gun you can handle.

Beware of the man who owns just one rifle because he knows how to use it.

Barny
__________________________________________________

PRATICE, PRATICE, PRATICE THEN PRATICE AGAIN

[ 08-20-2002, 07:11: Message edited by: barny ]

John: There are a few things in Zimbabwe that the country would be better off without, and a 416 might well be the answer...



s