I'm currently planning a moose hunt to Newfoundland this fall and I'm loading 400 gr Swift A-Frames out of my long throated 45-70 (Ruger #1). As everyone knows these bullet$ are damned expensive. I'd like to use cast bullets next time out, but I have some issues with them. Why do people use them if they don't expand? It's like using FMJ bullets. No expansion=no shock value, yet some people swear by them. I would never want an animal to be wounded and have always used expanding bullets. Why are they so popular (besides cost)??

If a cast bullet has a large meplat, ie flat face, it will create a wound channel, just like an expanding bullet does, well, not necessarily as large a wound channel, but it won't pencil through.

Bullet design in regards to terminal performance is a balance between wound diameter, and wound length, ie penetration. Expanding rifle bullets generally perform best at 2000 -2700 fps. Most 45-70 loads are maxed out at 2000 fps at the muzzle. So, at the lower velocoties of the 45-70, a flat faced cast bullet can provide a better match in terminal performance. With muzzle velocities in the 1700-2000 fps range, a hardcast flat faced lead bullet can be an excellent killer.

I don't know how fast you are pushing the A-frames, but IMHO, if the muzzle velocity is less then 2400 fps, there is no need to use that bullet. I would either go to a heavy hardcast 450+ gr, or a lighter jacketed, 350 gr X.

4x4 -
I don't know why people would avoid using lead bullets. I use pure lead bullets - which you might also try. There is some expansion I suspect though not much judging by the exit hole. I also shoot them MUCH slower than you do, and even kill things like elk with them. I would never use a high dollar bullet like that in a lever action .45-70. I just don't see the need. A .45-70 lever rifle with lead bullets, cast, swaged, hard, soft, paper patched, grease grooved, will all do a super job on a moose. Use a nice blunt nose shape or flat point and you will bring home the meat.

Brent

O4X4,
There is no advantage in using jacketed bullets instead of cast bullets in a caliber as big as the 45/70.The right cast bullet,with a wide meplat,with an alloy as soft as can be passed through the barrel without leading,is just as deadly as any jacketed bullet.If you have to shoot higher velocities at longer ranges,you can paper patch the bullet.
I get one shot kills with a 30/30 carbine with paper patched cast bullets.
Be aware that there are more variables to contend with,whens hooting cast bullets.You will need to spend a little more time to develope an accurate load.
Frank

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Frank

Hey 4x4,

Check out this link to Beartooth Bullets, there are some pictures of some of the bullets, you can get a visual aid as to what the Meplat, or flat nose area looks like.

www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

I have used a similar bullet, but the Cast Bullet Performance brand in a 440 gr flat nose out of my 1886 Winchester, getting 2000 fps out of a 26 inch barrel easily. I think it would do a "number" on a moose. Plenty of penetration, the trick is to "steer" it through the vitals, then dead moose.

If you want I can email you a picture of one of my loaded rounds for reference.

For reference to the killing power of cast bullets:

Ross Seyfried used 345 grain hard cast slugs, at 1550 to kill a Cape Buffalo.

Are elk that tough?

Another old guy using a considerably smaller caliber, 9.62mm I think, killed an elephant, using a cast bullet, at 2200 fps. That was Paco Kelly. Of course in his day and age, EVERYONE used cast bullets, or military hardball, as the general rule.

From my general inquiry into the max velocity, with many of the new lubes, 2200-2400 is fine. No leading.

It helps if the bullets are cast very hard, but cast too hard, and they self distruct, if they hit anything hard.
Seems to me they need to be sized a bit larger then bore size...

By the way, the accuracy with lead bullets can be REALLY outstanding, in certain rifles.

Great thing about big bores:
The bullet is pre-expanded, and you don't have to worry about bullet expansion.

gs

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

I use hard cast bullets 350g-405g from BearTooth and CPBT in my scoped 14 inch Contender. Top end is in the 1600fps range. I have never felt undergunned with this setup. I don't use this 45-70 barrel very much because I haven't found anything that I can't do with my various .41s'. My oldest son just loves this caliber and it is the barrel he choses first on our many weekend shoots. He has used it to kill many deer and wild pigs. He used it this year in south TX to kill a very large 1600+lbs feral range bull. One shot, center shoulder, complete pass through at 40-50 yards. Animal droped in it's tracks. BIG slow moving flat faced bullets kill like lightening in my Contenders. I have used .41 caliber cast bullets (250g)to kill animals as large as 1800+lbs (again a feral bull). If the BR is kept around 22 there isn't any problem with breakup. They will break anything you put in front of them including engine blocks, phone poles and concret blocks.

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Handgun Hunter
LOVE THOSE .41s'

"Why use PREEXPANDED lead bullets..."
Proper question...

gs

Socrates. If memory serves, Paco Kelly used that 9.3x62 in the late 1950's. 1958 I belive. There is nothing wrong with hunting with cast bullets. I have about 25 deer to my credit using a 30-30 and cast bullets. One of my 30-30 rifles has never seen a jacketed bullet since I bought it new.
As to a 45-70 on moose with a cast bullet? Why not. His load from a Ruger #1 will have a lot more velocity than the old time buffalo hunters and look what they did to the buffalo herds.
Check out Randy Garrett's 45-70 loads for thr Ruger #1 and Marlin rifles. Plenty of "ouch" factor on both ends there. I load 525 gr. cast bullets in my #1 to 1550 FPS, and I darn well don't want to be on the receiving end of one of those.
A buddy of mine borrowed my 45-70 for a black timber elk hunt. The shot hit the elk in the butt and the elk stopped on the spot, quivered a bit and dropped. he was less that 25 yards away when the bullet hit. he found the bullet lodge against the skin of the chest. You can almost relube and size it and shoot it again.
FWIW. I am having a custom mold maker duplicate the Lyman #3589 AKA 358008 seeing as Lyman refuses to make any more. I want to see how it does in a .35 Whelen, and if the results will be like what Paco Kelly got.
Paul B.

I have a plinking load for my .458 win, 420gr cast bullet at 1400fps. I think anything that got hit by that bullet would be dead.

4x4 exactly where in NFLND are you hunting ? Have you hunted there before ? Dont get me wrong, I think the ole grand 45/70 will be an excellent moose whopper, but you might have to accept its range limitations.

A 200+ yrd poke is a definate possibility in NFLND, much more so then.....say, Maine.

Barring that I think you'll have a great hunt with the 45/70. The best Bull moose, and BLK bear, I saw over there were both 400"+ yrds and there was no getting closer. I refused to take either shot, Newfie can be very open country.

Have a great hunt........10

10...My max shot up there will be about 175 yds. It is also my personal range limit. We'll be in St Paul Big Pond where I guess the 200 yd shot is the exception rather than the rule. We like to call 'em in....But you won't have to worry about me using those friggin' cast bullets. I have a Colt Anaconda that has lead in the barrel from years ago that I could NEVER remove and now, after 1 shot from my rifle with one of those damned things, I've been scrubbing it for 2 hours and the bore is still SILVER. Cast bullets are crap!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by old4x4 (edited 02-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by old4x4 (edited 02-11-2002).]

Old 4x4. Methinks your bullets are too soft.
Maybe this will help. Go to the store and buy a Chore Boy scouring pad. Get the one without soap. Take a tight fitting bore brush and wrap some of the strands from the scouring pad around the brush. Scrub your bore with that. I can usually clear a really badly leaded barrel in two to five minutes.
Even better, or worse depending on how you look at it, one really old timey way was to plug the bore tightly and fill it up with mercury. (Wouldn't the EPA love that one.) After about five minutes, drain the bore and wipe out with a tight patch. Nice clean lead free bore. This is what we did back in the "old days". Seriously though, it did work. Another "old days" trick was Blue Ointment, a popular cure for the "crabs." It was paste like and you could put some on a patch and scrub the bore with it. It's active ingredient was, you guessed it, mercury. It worked good too. Government took that one away from us as well.
Anyway, try the scouring pad trick. That should clear up your problem. Next time, try harder bullets that are about .002 larger than your bore diameter.
Steel wool on the brush will just polish the lead and make it shiny. The raggedy strands of the scouring pad will cut the lead and not harm your bore. Steel is stronger than copper or brass.
Paul B.

Any easy way to avoid leading:
Try ammunition from Buffalo Bore.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

Sundles site gives you 45/70 ballistics, and bullet weights, and what he gets out of them.

You can also get gas checked bullets, that don't lead, if you want to use softer lead.

Guys, what's the recipe for 22 BR?

21-22 parts anti-mony, and one part lead, or something like that???

gs

Socrates -
I think it's the other way around - 22 lead/1 antimony.

R-WEST

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"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son"
Dean Vernon Wormer - 'Animal House'

I can see no practical or ethical reason to use cast bullets on big game animals, jacketed bullets are better and faster killers, not to say that cast bullets will not kill with proper placement..remember jacketed bullets replaced cast bullets for that very reason..

If its nostalgia then fine, such is the bow and muzzleloader, and thats a legit option as are cast bullets..but anything a cast bullet can do a jacketed bullet, soft or solid can do better....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Paul,
Blue Ointment commonly sold at vet supply houses as Jensen Violet correct???

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I got the lead out ok and don't worry...I won't hunt with those things anyway. Turns out the Swifts won't shoot in my Ruger anyway. I'm getting rid of them. Got some North Forks on order. I think they'll shoot just fine (I hope). Thanks for all the tips.

PS I don't "buy" ammo...never have never will except for .22RF

[This message has been edited by old4x4 (edited 02-13-2002).]

Ray? Jensen Violet? I'll have to look into that. It sure would be nice if it is. I shoot so much lead that it sometimes gets to be a chore when a bad batch fouls up my barrels.
Thanks for the tip. I will look into it.
Paul B.