The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Caliber for Coues deer?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
I read with interest the choices for calibers for antelope. What do you think about the 25-06 for Coues deer? I have a lot of other calibers that would work too, like 270, 284 Winchester, 7x57, 300 win mag etc. Just wondered what you thought. Bob257 | ||
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300-06 | |||
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| one of us |
have always used a 30-06 with 180gr ammo for everything i have hunted check out ballistics on web site federal, winchester, hornady etc good hunting whtailtaker | |||
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Any of those would be fine. My favorite load for our little blacktail (110-125 lb) is 150gr .308BT at 2750fps. I personally consider anything smaller than 308 to be suitable for nothing larger than gophers but to each his own. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} This year I used my 375H&H on a couple of them just to get ready for my safari. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} They didn't go far.Blacktailer | |||
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| one of us |
.257 Roberts with any decent 100gr bullet would be my choice. | |||
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| one of us |
I grew up on a ranch loaded with Coues deer in the Texas Big Bend and have hunted the little animal extensively...About any caliber will work but I always liked the 250-3000 with either 87 or 100 gr. bullets...and a good 85 gr. Barnes X should be great... David Miller shoots a 300 why or something on that order and shoots them at very long ranges in excess of 600 yards, I don't know how many he has wounded, but I suspect some if the truth were known..they are a very small target....I prefer to hunt them, and discourage anyone from taking such long shots, regardless of how good a shot one is.. Any decent caliber is effective on them and Jack O'Connor loved the 257 and 270, His wife used the 7x57, all good choices. | |||
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| One of Us |
i have hunted the coes deer. of the ones u listed i think that the .300 w.m. w/ 150 gr would be the best. the shots can go long. the .25.06 would be o.k. to about 400 yds., but if the recoil doesn't bother u why not use the .300? i.m.h.o. cold zero ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <allen day> |
Coues deer hunting has almost nothing in common with most other forms of deer hunting, and the size of these animals has nothing to do with proper cartridge selection whatsoever. The country they live in determines that criteria. In typical coues deer country, the shooting distances can get very long, and the desert canyons these deer inhabit can be very windy. An appropriate rig for hunting blacktails here in Oregon or whitetails in Virginia is likely NOT the right rig for coues deer. A cartridge that bucks the wind well, with a flat trajectory and plenty of punch on the receiving end is the right cartridge for the job. I have always used the .300 Win. Mag. for my coues deer hunting, and I'll be using it again in January for a combination mule deer/coues deer hunt in Sonora. The rifle I'll be using wears a Leupold 4.5-14X with horizontal stadia wires from Premier Reticles. Any of the .300 magnums are ideal coues deer rifles in my opinion, so long as you employ 165 or 180 gr. bullets of high ballistic coefficient and push them out at 3100 fps. or better, then zero for 250-300 yards. The 7mm magnums should be just as good. My friend Kirk Kelso, owner of Pusch Ridge Outfitters (Tucson, AZ), likely takes as many or more great trophy coues deer out of his camps in Mexico every year as any other outfitter, and his experience with trophy coues deer is without peer. His own personal coues deer trophy collection is simply fantastic, and he's hunted them under just about every conceivable circumstance. He uses a .300 WBY. almost exclusively. His comments about rifles for southwestern hunting are well-worth reading: www.puschridgeoutfitters.com AD [ 10-24-2003, 19:23: Message edited by: allen day ] | ||
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Bob, Below are some selected excerpts discussing calibers from the book, HOW TO HUNT COUES DEER, that noted guide Duwane Adams and I just published. A couple anecdotes were removed. -TONY *** CALIBERS Nearly any centerfire round that is legal will kill a Coues deer, and most � but sadly not all � hunters seemingly possess the common sense to use enough gun to get the job done properly. In fact, many of them usually lean toward the over-gunned side, winding up with plenty of power to spare. Over the last four decades, I�ve killed bucks with rifles chambered for the 22-250 up to a .300 Win. Mag. In between were the .243, .270 Win., .270 Weatherby, 7 mm Rem. Mag., 30-06 and of course my personal favorite deer slayer, the .264 Win. Mag. from my 38-year-old Winchester Model 70. Not surprisingly, none of the deer I have killed with any one of these calibers was any �deader� than the others.... In most cases, the actual caliber you choose will depend more on how you hunt Coues deer. If you choose to sit in a treestand, watch a waterhole or a crossing saddle or even still-hunt, you�ll likely not need as much velocity and power as you might when you�re glassing. Quite often in the latter situation, you�ll spot a bedded or feeding buck where a stalk is impossible and you must shoot from where you are. These instances normally result in long-range shots. With that in mind, going with more power than you might ever need is always a good idea. When it comes to Coues deer hunting, Duwane likes the .300 Win. Mag., and I really have no disagreement with that choice. The .300, like the 7mm Rem. Mag., with mid-weight bullets is an ideal long-range cartridge. It�s flat shooting yet still carries plenty of wallop downrange out to 500 yards or more. In contrast, other high-velocity, flat-shooting rounds such as the 22-250 or .243 that can utilize only lightweight bullets lose much of their punch at extreme ranges. Plus, the wind will affect these lighter bullets more. That doesn�t mean they aren�t effective calibers for Coues deer under the right conditions, however. The hunter merely needs to realize the limitations or he takes a chance on wounding a buck.... In reality most of the old standby cartridges that have been around for decades are all still quite effective for deer hunting. In addition to the calibers mentioned earlier, the 6mm Rem., 25-06, .257 Roberts, .260 Rem., 280 Rem., 7mm-08 Rem., .308 Win., and even the .300 Weatherby are good choices. As a general rule, a muzzle velocity of about 2,700 feet per second and up for a bullet of 120 grains or more will accomplish the task at hand. Up to 500 yards, that same bullet should produce enough knock-down power to anchor a buck that will rarely weigh more than 120 pounds on the hoof. | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, the deer don't really care what we call them, of course, but Big Bend deer are generally recognized as "Carmen Mt Whitetail" rather than "Coues' Whitetail", both by biologists and by scoring orgs (B&C; TBGA). Troy | |||
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| one of us |
Yup, no coues deer in Texas however if you want my honest opinion they are the same species(Carmen Mtn.and Coues)I think its just easier to draw the line here in Texas than is would be farther west. As for caliber, anything thats flat that you are comfortable shooting. As long as you know your limitations and the limitations of your rifle you will be good. That being said, there can be some long distances when trying to harvest a coues so you would really limit yourself with a smaller caliber, I would use at least a .270. Drummond | |||
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Drum, You should give Professor Paul Krauseman at the U of A a call. He studied the CM whitetail extensively and found enough anatomical differences to conclude they are not identical to Coues deer. -TONY | |||
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These small deer are best hunted with the small deer,long range calibers: 270 (130gr), 264 Win mag (100gr) and 7mm Rem Mag (140 gr). | |||
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I will relate to you a story, that the "experts would like to ignore" since they didn't know it an naturally hate to admit it. I have written letters to some of them over the years and received no reply. None of them seems willing to discuss it. In the old CCC camp days when Roosevelt was trying to get people to work, my dad, and uncles drove the trucks that brought the Coues deer to the Big Bend country in some sort of a trade deal with Mexico and/or Arizona....My family and friends have ranched that country for decades...the Del Carmin "fan tail or hog nosed deer" of the Del Carmin mountains of Mexico ajacent to the Big Bend Nat'l. park has always had whitetail deer that resemble a coues deer and may well be for all I know but the deer in the glass mountains near Marathon and the Black gap and Chisos basin were put there in the early 40's... Elba and Euless Adams who owned the Adams ranch on the river also drove those trucks and have told me about those deer on several ocassions.. I guess I was 5 or 6 years old then and I saw them unload those deer and apparantly got really excited according to my mom.... Now the "experts" have found differences??, maybe they seek only recognition, made a mistake, perhaps the deer interbred with some whitetail, or perhaps they are just full of beans... | |||
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TONY- I am sure that there may be some differences but that would be the case throughout the range of the whitetail. How many sub-species of whitetail are there yet there is only 2 classifications in B&C, Coues and Whitetail. Do you think that a desert mule deer in Sonora and a rocky mountain mule deer in Colorado are the exact same? I dont, in fact I know that there are many differences however B&C does not differentiate between the two. I have hunted coues a bunch and have observed carmen mtn deer on numerous occassions I think that they are so close to the same thing that the main reason that they are classified seperately due to the fact that the carmen mtn deers range is extremely close to a "whitetails" range out here in west Texas. My .02. Drummond | |||
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Last I looked, there are over 30 subspecies of whitetail in this hemisphere if we count all of those south of the border. The reason for the separate listing for Coues is three fold -- intense lobbying of B&C that occurred years ago, easy geographical separation from most other subspecies whitetail and those anatomical differences I mentioned. The same distinctions are made for moose, caribou and elk, though genetically the differences are just as minimal as those between a Coues or a TX whitetail. And remember, close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. If I recall, the CENTRAL barren ground 'bou (NWT)was the last critter to be singled out by B&C for a separate listing, and that occurred just months before I killed mine. Although I never officially entered mine, it would have been in the top 10 for quite a while. Now, I doubt it would even make the book. By the way, the endangered Keys deer of FL looks very much like a Coues deer, too. -TONY [ 10-25-2003, 02:31: Message edited by: Outdoor Writer ] | |||
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Ray, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of your story . . . however, any Coues' deer that were brought in would have interbred with regular TX whitetail that have been moving in from the east over the latter half of the past century, as the habitat in the Glass Mts is contiguous with the deer habitat (inhabited by TX whitetails) in the Sanderson area). Of course, they also would have interbred with the native Carmen Mt deer in the Chisos and Sierra del Carmen, too. Whatever you want to call them, they surely are by now no longer "pure Coues' deer, at least not in the sense that AZ/NM/Sonora deer are . . . whatever that really means, biologically. Troy | |||
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Troy, I think you will find a buffer zone from Sanderson to Marathon and those deer never have gotten much beyond Sanderson...The coues in the Glass mountains are all alone and have been for years, surrounded by Mule Deer populations..Then the Chisos Mt. Deer are also isolated by a Buffer of Mule Deer and those Whitetail, locally known as fantail don't even get on neighboring ranches or even much out of the Chisos basin itself..I leased for cattle and hunting, one of those ranches, the Rosillas, for some years... The Carmen Mountain Deer as far as I know are in the Del Carmin Mountains of Mexico and are probably the same deer as they have in Del Rio, Texas, since there is a huge dry Senorian desert between the Del Carmens and the Big Bend Nat'l. Park and a million hungry Mexicans in that area... The Whitetail deer in the Chenati Mts out of Presidio are pretty much isolated in that area...All of thise isolated whitetail have been there forever and were deposited there for the most part with the exception of the Chenati deer, which appear to be Coues..No miagration has gone in that direction, rather it has gone up and East of there in the vicinity of Midland, Odessa, Pecos and Kermit where 15 years ago there were no deer at all to speak off...all this as a result of over population caused by the killing of the screw worm fly... It is my opinnion that the Carmen Mt. whitetail commonly known for years in the Big Bend country as fantail or hog nose deer are pure coues and of the stock that was put there...The Chenati deer are very simular to them and Coues, and I have no clue as to their origin, but can only speculate... The Sanderson deer are definatly just common Texas Whitetail and in that area they kill a number of Mule Deer whitail crosses and that has been varified by Texas Fish and Game.. I know several Texans that are selling Coues Deer hunts in the Glass Mountain area and have been for many years and some of the heads have been entered in the record book??? One such outfit was the famous knife maker form Ft. stockton, but he has moved someplace else... | |||
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| <Don Martin> |
I do a bit of guiding for coues deer North of Hermosillo and like to see clients "over-gunned" for coues deer. Mexican deer of both the coues and mule variety tend to take some extra killing in my experience. I've been fortunate enough to hunt 40 different species of big game and guide for 7 and Mexican deer have given me the most headaches!!! .30 Caliber magnums are a good choice! But ultimately, I guess, I'm just another parrot squawking rhetoric like, "Take the gun you shoot most accurately, UUUUUAAAWWWKKKK!!!!" or... "Know your rifle and your limitations UUUUUAAAWWWKKK!!!" Okay, okay...enough comedy! Good luck, have a great hunt! Don Martin www.EndlessSafari.com | ||
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I have not found them at all hard to kill, other than they are high strung and tend to run a bit further... Most people shoot at them too far off instead of getting closer and end up shooting them a little shallow or just plain wounding them...Most bullets are a little tough for coues that are hardly 8 inches across the rib cage.. I am looking at a 116 plus and a 114 plus B&C that I shot in the Glass Mountains as I type this post...They are my favorite deer, I hunt them horseback and my Coues rifle is a 250-3000 Savage with 87 gr. Corelokts, it works for me... Some of the hunts in Arizona by David Miller for instance are a totally different sport or type of Coues hunting than we do in The Big Bend or in our part of Mexico..They use spotting scopes, binocs, 4x14 Scopes on 30" barreled simi varmint rifles with benchrest type set ups and apparantly they are very effectively at ranges up to 1500 yards I am told...I have not hunted that way so couldn't say...It seems to me a recipe for wounding...It sure wouldn't take much error to break a leg... | |||
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One of Us |
Back in the seventies I built a .222 on a Sako L-469 action...I added a Fajen aristocrat stock and made a triple taper-half round/half octagon with a full length vent rib integral to the 16 1/4" barrel. I machined on that barrel for over 200 hours to get that way and was very surprised when it actually turned out to be accurate. To this day it holds my personal prairie dog record with 39 consecutive hits. I took it along with a Mauser actioned .25-06 on a texas deer hunt west of SanAntonio. We was allowed to shoot eight deer and eight turkeys and eight hogs. (four hunters) I shot my two deer with two shots and never had to shoot over 60 yards. The other hunters all wanted to borrow it and in total it killed 7 deer in 7 shots and not a one of them took a step. Yes, they was small deer and the longest shot was probably under 75 yards. If I was to redo the trip, I'd use my 6X45 in a heartbeat and my .25-06 would still be there as a backup in case the shots was a lot longer. The first deer I shot didn't weigh 60 pounds on the hoof!!....the largest, a fine buck, was no more than 120 pounds live weight. It still was a very good time | |||
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Ray, I practically live out there in the summers - you can see Whitetail in the Davis Mts from time to time, athough they are not as common as mule deer. As far as whitetail being continuous from Sanderson into the Glass, I haven't been on the ranches to be sure, but my Dad hunted near Bakersfield to the NE of the Glass and had a lease off of FM 2400 in extreme N Terrell county - all the deer on the Terrell Co place were whitetails, and the Bakersfield place had both species. I haven't been on the ranches between the two ranges, but the whitetails I have seen in the glass (at Gap Tank, off US 385) looked no different than any other whitetail. Biologists in the state continue to represent the Chisos deer as Carmen Mt deer (rightly or wrongly). I've only been through the Chinati's once or twice and have only seen Mule Deer there. However, as far as B&C is concerned, there are not Coues Deer east of the Gila Mts (Black Range) NW of Las Cruces. No Texas deer have been entered as Coues Deer (this I know for a fact, having the most recent B&C record books on the shelf). Troy | |||
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quote:He's killed and recovered enough to monkey with 'em. B&C Issues Statement Regarding David Miller June 19, 2003 By B&C Headquarters Missoula, MT The Boone and Crockett Club recently released the following statement in response to David Miller�s comments regarding his Coues� whitetail trophy entries posted on several message boards on the Internet: ... David Miller has a long history with the Boone and Crockett Club�s North American Big Game Awards Program and has entered his Coues� deer trophies over many years. As a former Lifetime Boone and Crockett Associate and trophy owner, David is well-known to Club members and associates, especially those who are interested in Coues� deer. Finally, David is very familiar with the requirements of the Club�s scoring system and the Club�s expectations regarding the integrity of the Club�s Awards Programs. When the Club received information that questioned the integrity of one of David�s trophies we followed our normal procedures of contacting the trophy owner and requesting information about the trophy that would address the allegation(s). Once it was confirmed that a point had been removed from his trophy, whether intentionally or inadvertently after it was shot, the Records Committee had no option but to remove that trophy from the Awards Programs and drop it from listing in future records books. Simply put, this trophy was not eligible for continued listing in future records books. The Records Committee could have removed all of David�s trophies based on the removal of the trophy mentioned above, but it gave David the benefit of the doubt. Rather than removing all of David�s trophies, the committee gave David the option to have his other trophies x-rayed at his convenience and location at the Club�s expense to see if there were any irregularities with his other trophies as alleged. This examination of his trophies would have provided conclusive facts. Faced with this offer, David chose to withdraw his trophies from the Awards Program. ... | |||
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Troy, Go take a look at the Whitetails on the old Cap Yates ranch out of Marathon, they are classic Coues, others are between Alpine Ft. Stockton cut off and Ft Stockton....They are the "hognosed" deer that weigh 75 lbs.or less and thats Coues IMO....regardless of what they are called...Jim B?, the knife maker is selling them as Coues.. I don't have much trust in biologist that come up with these reports, it is such an in-exact science and noone questions them. All the deer in the Sanderson, Bakersfield are common whitetail, and have been there forever...The Davis Mt. Deer are also common whitetail and I don't know how they got there, probably wondered in from Ft. Stockton... The one thing I'm sure of is how the Big Bend whitetail got there and that was Coues via truck..They are still prevelent in the Park from Boquillas Canyon to Stillwell crossing on the Adams ranch, behind Persimmon gap ranch (Ben Love) and that area on the left of the hiway as you enter the park at Persimmon Gap...I have always assumed those "fantail" in the Chisos Basin were remenants of those deer and I still think that as I have shot some of them that came across onto my land at the Rosillas where I had a respectable herd at one time...I understand that drouth and hard hunting since I left has pretty much desimated those Rosillas and Grapevine hills herd of whitetail... At any rate thats what I know about the whitetail deer in that are for whatever its worth...which is a cup of coffe if you got a dollar to go with it... But I was under the impression that the Del Carmen Whitetail was only recognized by Safari Club International, and not B&C.... | |||
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quote:I'm sorry, I am not very well versed on trophy hunting. Could someone please explain what it means "a point had been removed from his trophy" ? Also, the article seems to imply he turned down having his other trophys X-rayed because something similar had been done to those as well. Am I reading that right? | |||
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| <Kirk> |
killsoft, Boone and Crockett had photographic proof that a point on the deers rack had been removed from the time the field photo's were taken and the head was entered in their record book. Miller claimed that it was broken off by a guide or cowboy or someone, so Boone and Crockett gave him the benifit of the doubt and removed that head alone and didn't remove any of his other heads until such time that they would be X-rayed to satisfy them of other allegations made about his other heads being altered. He refused to have his other heads x-rayed and chose at that time to pull his remaining heads out of the clubs record book. | ||
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| one of us |
I am curious now, and I have never commented on this thing but I'd like to know, did the "guide or cowboy" file and sand and blend the horn much like a gunsmith would a stock repair job???? Those skilled cowboys did such a good job that it took an x-ray to detect it!!!!... I think I would have pulled all my heads out too, if I were David Miller... I would have demanded a full scale investigaion, had all my heads x-rayed if I were him.. By his reluctance he basically pleaded guilty to fraud IMO... Am I wrong in my thinking??? | |||
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| one of us |
Ok, I'm partway there but I still don't get it. Why would you REMOVE a point? I thought more points were good?? If he had added points with chicken wire and Bondo that would be understandable to me ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <Don Martin> |
The length of non-typical points on a rack scored for the "typical" category, are subtracted from a buck's "Gross score". So the removal of a non-typical point would yield a higher "net score" placing the buck higher in the record book. Don Martin www.EndlessSafari.com | ||
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| new member |
Ray, Miller refused to let Boone and Crockett examine the head that had the broken abnormal point or any of his other heads. I'm with you, why wouldn't you let them look at the heads if you had nothing to hide? If they were legit, then that would have cleared evrything. Carpman | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Ok, I get it now. Thanks. He should have entered the buck in the "modified" category | |||
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| one of us |
My rifle for Coues is a Sako Forrester with a 20 in.bbl. in 243Win.primarily due to it's weight and handling. My hunting partner shoots a Sako in 6x47,shooting 85gr.Partitions.Neither of us feel under gunned,however most of our shots are up close and personal.The longest shot I remember was 120yards and so far everything has been a one shot kill. Bravo | |||
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