Gentlemen:

Sometime in the next few months I am going to have built a mountain mule deer rifle [which I hope is also capable of taking Elk in a pinch]. It will be built on a short action [Rem 700, Sako 75 or maybe a Kimber 84m?] and will have only a 20-21 inch barrel.

The question is what caliber should I go with? Assuming the gun can shoot a Barnes bullet accurately [an entirely unwarranted assumption, I know], a Barnes .264 cal. 120 grain bullet has about the same BC as a Barnes 130 grain .284 bullet. If I recall correctly, a .25 cal Barnes X at 100 grain is significantly lower in BC than the other two. The comparisons also hold true as between comparable Nosler bullets in those calibers and weights. Bullet efficiency is, for me, a consideration even if the practical effect at 300 yards is minimal---hence the emphasis here.

I really like the quarter-bore, but I continue to have reservations that 100 grain .25 cal bullet is going to put a deer down as well as a 130 grain 7mm bullet or a 120 grain .264 bullet. If I was settled on the quarter bore, obviously Duane Spooner's .257 DGR would be the cartridge of choice. In any event, as between the 7mm and .264, it seems to me that the .25 caliber is going to be somewhat disadvantaged---especially in a short barreled rifle. This is especially true if my maxium velocity is only about 3000 fps. With a 20-21 inch barrel length, I am hoping for 3000 fps [in whatever cartridge I decide upon]. Obviously, I would rather get to the target with a 120-130 grain bullet than a 100 grain bullet at that velocity.

All of this also raises the additional question as to whether or not an improved cartridge is necessary or worthwhile. My main rationale for improving the .260 [or going with a 7mm-08 Improved is to make absolutely sure I can get to 3000 fps from a 20-21 inch tube. This is perhaps not the most intelligent way to attack the problem, I realize, I am just pscyhologially committed to the 3000 fps barrier.

Any thoughts, anyone, as to the best cartridge choice among those I have suggested? Again, the essential criteria is to be able to kill mule deer cleanly at 300-350 yards [I know there are alot of variables, shot placement, shooter skill, etc., just indulge me please!] using an efficient, short-barreled mountain rifle with a 20-21 inch tube.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks,

Jordan

If you are going to go for Mule deer and Elk at longer range, I would personally want the 7mm-08 just because of the availability of so many good bullets and loads as well as the availability of heavier bullets. I am having a hard time understanding why you would want to go with the Ack. Imp. for this caliber because this is such an efficient cartridge right out of the box. Also, why have a custom rifle made? All you have to do is buy one of the good factory rifles in this caliber. If I remember correctly, Remington makes their Model 700 Mountain Rifle in 7mm-08 with a 22" barrel and it weighs just over 6 pounds. If, for some reason you don't like that particular one, all of the major manufacturers list rifles in that caliber. The one that has caught my eye is the Remington Titanium model at 5 1/4 pounds. That is right, just a touch over 5 pounds.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to talk you out of having a custom rifle built if you really want to, it is just that I cannot see the justification for having one done that would essentially mimic what is already available from the factory.

If you absolutely have to have 3000 fps muzzle velocity, I think you'd be better served with the .284 or the 6.5-.284. With the .25s the 115 to 120 grain bullets will suffice for elk, but are a bit heavily constructed for real fast expansion on deer. Nevertheless, several tons of venison have been brought to the table with them AND the 100 grain bullets. Therefore the .25-.284 isn't entirely out of the picture. Let us know what you end up with. With Norma factory ammo available I think the 6.5-.284 might just be the thing you want. A buddy of mine used 129-grain Hornadys in his 6.5 Rem Mag for everything. He never complained about lack of penetration.
Love the looks of that Kimber 84, too bad I'm left handed!

[This message has been edited by Slamfire (edited 06-13-2001).]

If you want a 20-21" barrel and still want reasonable velocities then go with the larger bore (7mm-08). When you go down to 26 caliber and smaller 20-21" is right on the line for being able to generate good velocities. This will not hurt the 7mm-08 that much when using a faster burning powder and 140 grain bullets.

You are splitting hairs. pick the one you like and enjoy.

My choice is the 7-08IMP. My gun is a sako m-592 20 inch barrel. I get over 3000fps with 140 grn bullets. Kills deer like lightning. I killed a 350lb boar with this gun using bear claw 140grn bullets. I also have a 280 IMP 24 inch barrel it only beats the 7-08imp by 85fps with 4 more inches of pipe.Every gun is different but if you shoot the barnes 130 X I am sure you will get 3000fps. I love those medium action 20 inch guns they handle so well. One more point the 7-08IMP cannot keep up with my 280IMP with heavier bullets.

Actually looking for something similar myself (for the kids), but have been leaning towards the 6.5 as I had the perception they would be better (high BC) long-range than the 7mm (and a bit less recoil in light rifles).

I know the 7-08 (have one already) is a great cartridge but what is the difference between the 7-08IMP - and a normal 7-08. How much more velocity do you get out of the improved version. Can you still shoot factory 7-08 in the improved ?
Rgds., Peter

Peter, you can shoot regular factory ammo out of an improved rilfe. The whole point behind their design was if you ran out ammo, you could just chamber factory ammo and blow it out to the chamber size, thus improving it.

Hope this helps

So how come noone has pointed out that "improvements" to the basic .308 case are minimal at best.

I would take the 257DGR of course, but then I all ready own one! I really don't think that an elk shot in the lungs/heart could tell you any difference between the 3. Just for your info though, I chronographed a 284 today with a 20" Ruger factory barrel, IMR 4831, and a 140gr bullet- 2860fps.

Since you are going to build a rifle which I assume will be a custom rig. One option you have left out is the 308 win. Great range of bullet options and will diffently do over 3000 fps with 135 grain pills. In a 308 go with an 308 Obermeyer chamber which fits Lapua 308 brass very nicely. If you go with a 12 twist barrel you can shoot the heavier pills upto 180 grains. Which will satisfy you Elk requirement.

Going into a completely different direction. Your requirement for this rifle say 270 Winchester allover it. The one expection is the short action. The 270 is a proven game getter and in a 22 in barrel is balance really well. 130 over 3000 and 150 for elk that 2900 fps.

Don't overlook the obvious and dont think you have to go to an improved cartridge to get the performance. The 308 and 270 fill alot of voids with a lot less headaches.

Ciao

Mike

Mike,

What the heck is an "Obermeyer chamber"
and why is it so suitable for Laupa brass??

I have Sako L591 in .308 and my local range is doing a good deal on laupa brass and bullets hence my interest??

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 06-17-2001).]

Pete

The 308 Win (Obermeyer Chamber) is based on the reamer Boots Obermeyer spec'd for Palma matches. It has a 2-30-00 leade and std neck dia. is 0.346". The reason the Lapua brass work well is it is a little fatter than Rem and Win brass. I believe it is 0.472 @ 0.200 from rim and the lapua brass is 0.470. Whereas the rest is 0.468".

JGS sells this reamer.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Jordan, you know my answer, yea the 7mm08. If you want a 20"-21" barrel stick with the factory case. All the imp. versions based on the 308 case show significant velocity increases with at least a 22" barrel. I'm talking 150-200fps gains in the 7mm08AI using 120gr or 140gr bullets. You could build your rifle using a 22" barrel on a Rem 700SA. Go with a 2, 2.5 or 3 barrel contour depending on your desired rifle weight. I would go with an 11 twist barrel which would allow you to shoot up to 150gr bullets under all shooting conditions. My personal choice is a 2.5 contour,SS 11 twist in a Pac-Nor, Schnieder, Hart or Lilja match grade barrel. The stock you want is the McMillan Rem Mountain rifle or the Rem Mod 7. Be sure to specify you want weatherby -fill in the action area. These stocks are light, under 2lbs, the Mod 7 being lighter of the two. You will work up a load using 140gr Nosler BT to determine your custom rifle's accuracy potential. Most 7mmo8s I've worked with shoot the Noslers just fine. If you want to shoot elk, use the 140gr Nosler Partition. Both of these bullets are generally interchangeable with the same zero. Expect 2700-2850fps with 140gr in the factory version using a 20" barrel. Go to the imp version using at least a 22" barrel and you will pick another 150-200fps. I'm partial to Hodgden's Varget in this cartridge. Excellent velocity,accuracy and stable. Mr. Swickard is pretty right on about the 308win., a fine choice also using 150-165gr out of a 12 twist barrel. Pick your smith' carefully. sure-shot

Mike,

Thanks for the explaination!

Pete

Thanks, everyone for the very helpful suggestions. I appreciate it.

Regards,

Jordan