Just a little public service announcement.

Rifle ammuniton containing bullets with 1% or greater lead content are prohibited for hunting.

So that basically means any of the Barnes Xs or Nosler E-tips are legal.

The effective date is July 1, 2008.



If it is hard to tell from the map. The Central Valley is excluded.

Mike, I think I know what you mean, but what you wrote could be taken a couple of ways.

When you wrote:

quote:

Rifle ammuniton containing bullets with 1% or greater lead content are prohibited for hunting.

So that basically means any of the Barnes Xs or Nosler E-tips

One could believe that you are stating that both the Etip and X bullets contain at least 1% lead or more, OR, which I know to be the case, you are stating that because of the ban, the X and Etip style bullets are the only ones hunters CAN use....or GS custom correct?

When I first read it, I thought you were implying that both bullets do in fact contain about 1% or more lead, which would sure be news to me.

Doc,

I edited the post. I was trying to say that those are the legal bullets.

Regarding GS Customs, if they are solid copper than yes they would be acceptable.

I've spoken with 3 local DFG wardens and they have NO CLUE how to enforce this.

How can a warden in the field tell an X or TSX from many different HP bullets? Or other than some differences in tip color how can a warden tell a Tipped TSX, MRX or E-Tip from any of the other polycarbonate tipped bullets? Will we get ALL of our ammo confiscated as potential evidence when we're checked?

The wardens are already thinking guys will just claim they were "target shooting" rather than hunting when caught with bullets containing lead.

More monkey business legislation that is trying to get PC votes but is impossible to enforce and will make no difference with the supposed "problem".

You folks that are laughing that it could only happen in CA better get your act together because this garbage is headed your way. Good luck getting ANY politician to come out as pro-lead.

Kyler

Also, people better realize that more dead condors with high lead content in their blood were found in Arizona than in California so I could easily see this spreading really quickly.

The DFG here is saying that possession of lead projectiles and a gun while you in the affected areas, if you have a deer tag (during the deer season)or pig tag at anytime will constitue a violation.

How does this effect .22 short, long, or long rifle hunting? I don't know of any rimfire ammunition that meets the requirements.

The short answer is lead is ok in 22 rimfires as long as you are hunting a game species.

Here is what is really "squirelly" (pun intended).

First some background.

There is no scientific research that actually shows condors are getting lead from gut piles. When you read through the reports, they mostly say, "Well it's just a logical place for it to come from."

They also state they have never observed (even with the use of radio tracking) a condor feeding on big game gut pile.

Now on to rimfires. This directly from the DFG Website:

"The Commission has not addressed the issue of hunting small game mammals because
that section of the regulations was not “opened†for potential change. Therefore, hunters can legally hunt jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel using lead projectiles, but not ground squirrels (non game species) in the same area. Part of the reasoning for this is that unlike nongame
animals that are hunted and usually left in the field, game species must be retrieved and
not wasted.

The Department and Commission are of the understanding that non-lead projectiles for
rimfire are not readily available or manufactured at this time and that the only non-lead rimfire is in .22 caliber magnum, and not for the very popular .22 short, long, or long rifle."

So in summary:

1) We have no real proof that big game carcasses are the source, but since there are non lead alternatives, we will ban the lead projectiles.

2) We don't have alternative ammuniton available for rimfires and since those regulations wern't due for review we won't address it.

3) Even though the likelihood that any portion of a lead bullet remains in a shot ground squirell is zero. You can't shoot them or any varmint (non game specieals with a any lead proejectile including 22 rimfire.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Also, people better realize that more dead condors with high lead content in their blood were found in Arizona than in California so I could easily see this spreading really quickly.

The DFG here is saying that possession of lead projectiles and a gun while you in the affected areas, if you have a deer tag (during the deer season)or pig tag at anytime will constitue a violation.

Yep, I'm just waiting for this to hit Arizona. At this point they "suggest" the use of lead free bullets but no legislation has been put forth...

As Mike stated, there has been ZERO proof that the lead is coming from bullets. But they'll pass legislation banning lead bullets to pacify the tree hugging gun grabbers ...

Ken....

What is unfortunate is if they would have taken a more consensus building approach, they would have gotten the full backing of the hunting community.

1) Voluntary compliance with non lead ammunition.

2) Requirement to either bury or cover in brush your gut pile.

3) Request to bring in carcasses or partial carcasses for testing.

I suspect the response from sportsman would have been overwhelming.

What will be interesting is any follow-up study. The research to date says that when condors are kept in a capitivity and their diet is controlled that their body flushes lead quickly, within weeks actually.

So if lead ammunition from big gmae animals is the cause, then within say 2 hunting seasons captured and tested condors will have dramatically reduced lead levels.

I am sure that report will be out promptly.

quote:

As Mike stated, there has been ZERO proof that the lead is coming from bullets.

Unfortunately that's not true.
Condors and Lead

Skinner,

I did a fair amount of research and found many similar articles and postings on websites.

I then went and read the underlying actual research reports. Remember, articles and web postings are interpretations of the reports.

When you read the underlying actual reports, they all seem to say the same thing..."we don't really know the cause". They all speculate that it is from lead ammunition.

I could not find 1 research document that said anything even close to:

1) We shot deer with lead and non lead bullets and measured actual fragementation and residual amounts of lead in gut piles and tissues.

2) We tracked condors and found that they actually feed on hunter taken game gut piles.

Think about how long a gut pile lasts in the wild. Not long. Most gut piles are consumed by animals other than condors.

3) We captured and blood tested game and looked at the amount of lead that is in their system because of lead in the environment.

I would love to see a research document not an article or web posting that shows any type of real testing.

quote:

I could not find 1 research document that said anything even close to:

1) We shot deer with lead and non lead bullets and measured actual fragementation and residual amounts of lead in cut piles and tissues.

OK, we'll get you started.

From the Wildlife Society Bulletin

Bullet Fragments in Deer Remains: Implications for Lead Exposure in Avian Scavengers

And to go with that,

supplemental Data and Images

Here's another, unfortunately just the abstract as I can't access the PDF document which shows the radiograph pics.

Carcasses of Shot Richardson's Ground Squirrels May Pose Lead Hazards to Scavenging Hawks

It's interesting because I'm not aware of similar research being done previously on bullet performance on game (probably a Hell of a lot on humans though) using flouroscopy or CT scan. So we really don't know just how much fragmentation there is with lead cored bullets, nor how far lead fragments travel in flesh or internal organs.

I'll dig you out some more as my time allows and I can access an online source for the journal articles.

Mike,

It's all grand conspiracy to eliminate hunting. Even the AZ G&F department is part of it. Heck, what's a few dollars lost from license and tag sales anyway.

Actually, there have been dozens of occasions where condors were observed feeding on dead deer remains and/or gut piles. The condors are probably the most "observed" thing in AZ next to the Hooter's gals.

In fact, the gal who runs CWT.com is an avid hunter and also a biologist. Last year on the Kaibab, she witnessed a condor on a gut pile of a buck. Here's the photo she took of it after she spooked it off its meal.

"One morning I went out scouting an area while Ray hunted another. I saw another hunter shoot this large buck right in front of me. Later in the day I scored it for him. It went about 180 with those two nontypical kickers.

Later I found this condor right near the gut pile from that buck. Took some pics of it while it was roosted in a tree nearby. You can see its wing tag and the radio transmitter on it also. It was pretty neat to see one so close. I digiscoped a few pics of it. They are pretty ugly, but they have a neat "mane" of black feathers with white highlights around the neck and chest. This bird had just finished feeding on the gut pile (which the hunter shot with a lead bullet, so I suppose it's highly likely that condor ingested some lead)"




Also, every successful hunter on the Kaibab must check out. Last year, they were asked to bring back their gut piles in plastic bags that were provided. In exchange, their name was entered in a $500 drawing for Cabela's merchandise. AND...through a VOLUNTEER program that provides FREE ammo with non-lead bullets, there was 80% compliance.

And..just in case you really do want to read some research that the AGFD is actually included in, here's a couple links that might help.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/w_c/condors/AOU.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59bTLh-KgFg&eurl=http://...iforniaCondors.shtml

Oh, and here are a few factoids, as well:

The first major condor lead exposure event in Arizona occurred in June 2000, resulting in the death of three condors (Woods et al. this volume). Since that time extensive trapping and testing of condors for lead exposure has occurred in Arizona. Condor blood tests have identified 176 cases of lead levels indicative of lead exposure, while in sixty-six cases, condors required chelation therapy to treat dangerously high lead levels. Further, ingested lead pellets or bullet fragments have been recovered from 14 individual condors

How do they know they were bullet fragments and not wheel weights or fishing sinkers? See below.
***

The fifth study is an ongoing lead isotope study funded by the AGFD and
conducted by the University of Arizona, Tucson, using biological samples provided by TPF condor biologists. This study aims to conclusively determine the pathway for lead exposure in condors. Lead isotope ratios of condor blood and lead removed from condor digestive tracts are being compared to lead isotope ratios of lead retrieved from carcasses on which condors feed, lead ammunition, and other possible lead sources (J. Chesley pers. comm.). Preliminary results have established a direct match between lead ammunition and lead found in condor blood and digestive tracts (J. Chesley pers. comm.). As they become available, data from this study are incorporated into the communication strategy and shared with the public.

-TONY

I have no problem believing that lead bullets are a cause of lead poisoning to these birds. It is reasonable and logical.

I do wonder how long it will take other states to consider a lead ban.

I did recently purchase 2500 Barnes bullets and plan on buying and trying the Etips.

quote:

and plan on buying and trying the Etips.

Which, BTW, are now available in .270 130gr., I ordered a few boxes from Midsouth Shooters Supply.

The cost was $0.05 more per box of 50 than 130gr. Partitions.

Let me to be the first to say if California hadn't outlawed the 50 BMG, this wouldn't be an issue. Wouldn't be much lead in the gut pile if the bullet passes clean through.

All kidding aside, the california buzzard (or condor) may be picking up lead from varmint gut piles I believe it is possible, but their is little evidence to back up the hunch. If there is lead in the gut piles, other animals within the eco-system should also have elevated blood-lead levels. I haven't heard of x-ray proof coyotes as of yet.

I try to be as ecologically sound when decimating squirrel populations, and would consider hitting 'em with 750 gr of spun copper if it would be available, but to have a law passed based on speculation seems to be a bad habit of the california legislature.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:

quote:

and plan on buying and trying the Etips.

Which, BTW, are now available in .270 130gr., I ordered a few boxes from Midsouth Shooters Supply.

The cost was $0.05 more per box of 50 than 130gr. Partitions.

REALLY?? I've been watching midsouth's site for awhile. I'll place an order tonight. Thanks.

quote:

If there is lead in the gut piles, other animals within the eco-system should also have elevated blood-lead levels. I haven't heard of x-ray proof coyotes as of yet.

Lead fragments will often pass through the digestive tracks of mammals such as canines and never get into the bloodstream, which is what causes lead poisoning. Also, humans with slugs or pellets embedded into their flesh can survive quite well without having them removed. They become encapsulated in scar tissue, and there's no chemical reaction to send lead into the circulatory system.

The problem with condors results because their food passes through their gizzards -- something mammals do not possess. And once the particles enter the gizzard, they pretty much stay there. Then various enzymes slowly break down the lead particles, thus allowing them to enter the bloodstream.

Ditto for waterfowl. Lead shot was killing millions of waterfowl because they ingest it like they would small pebbles to aid digestion. They weren't dying because a hunter hit them with a few stray pellets or two.

That said, there have been documented cases of coyotes and other scavengers with high lead levels. The difference is that such scavengers are not under constant surveilence as the condors are. Every condor in AZ has a radio collar and is constantly monitored. When the habits seemingly change, it sends up a red flag to the researchers. That's why they are able to capture and treat many before they die. -TONY

Reading alot of these research reports and still a lot of supposition and a lot of holes in the research. I am not saying that the suppositions are necessarily illogical.

There are still other sources of the lead that are not eliminated.

Don't get me wrong, I am not necessarily against the ban on lead in the condor range.

I am extremely concerned about the way they went about it.

quote:

There are still other sources of the lead that are not unlimited

And when it comes to condors, those are???

BTW, lead poisoning is quite widespread in terrestial birds (that's the non-waterfowl kind for the unscientific types) and has been well documented in more than 60 species, including both American eagle species, all raptors and yes, ravens, too. Many of these terrestial species are susceptable in two ways -- either by ingesting the lead fragments while feeding on game carcasses or entrails or by picking up lead shot when they do their normal pecking for small stones or gravel to aid digestion. Pheasants, quail, chukars and wild turkeys have all suffered from lead poisoning as a result of the latter.

The difference between the documentation between such birds and the highly controlled condor is the ability to KNOW when the poisoning or deaths occur. Obviously, the condors are closely monitored, which includes radios, etc. Eagles, raptors or other terrestial birds are happenstance discoveries, however. Thus, the magnitude of lead poisoning losses for individual terrestial species is difficult to quantify. -TONY

Tony,

First, I meant to say the sources have not been "eliminated" as opposed to "unlimited".

The other sources of lead that condors are exposed to (in nor particular ordr) are:

1) deposits into the atmosphere from industrial emmisions that are either directly or via vector (contained in the tissue of another animal that becomes carrion) comes into contact with the condor

2) lead in the soil from natural deposits that either directly or via vector (contained in the tissue of another animal that becomes carrion)comes into contact with the condor.

3) Solid lead waste deposits from disposal of items at dumps or other disposal sites.

One of the reasons I question the seriousness of the connection is that within California (even with extensive monitoring), I cannot find one documented observation by a scientist/technician/biologist ect of a condor feeding on game shot carrion.

Alternatively, there is this report.

http://www.birdersworld.com/brd/default.aspx?c=a&id=542#condor

"Adult condors are carrying microtrash - bits of metal, glass, plastic, and other junk - back to the nest, where their chicks are eating it, with dire consequences. The problem was illustrated dramatically in August, when biologists discovered a dump's worth of refuse in the crop and gut of a chick taken from a nest in Hopper Mountain National Wildlife Refuge in California.

The young condor had ingested bottle caps, remnants of plastic bags, electrical fittings, shell casings, broken glass and plastic, small pieces of fabric and rubber, and other indigestible items. Three hours of surgery at the Los Angeles Zoo were required to remove it all. The chick survived and was expected to recover, but another chick in California died after eating trash."

When I see this kind of report which I admit is unsubstantied, and then think about all of the things that have to occur for a condor to be exposed to lead from a hunter's bullet (1) has to be lead bullet, granted most of them are, 2) contaminated meat has to be left in the field, or 3) gut pile must contain lead fragments (remember most shots are heart long shots), 4)gut pile is not consumed by some other animal, 5)condor must eat the contaminated portion of the gut pile.

By the way, if the offending big game animal is a deer, there is the maximum of a two month exposure period in CA that this exposure occurs. If I recall correctly, when there is a lack of exposure the condors tissues cleanse themselves pretty well.

As it relates to pigs, the research I have read seems to show that condors avoid pig carrion because the skin is too tough. Then you say, okay well what about pig gut piles. The vast majority of pigs in CA are shot on private land which are road accessible and the pigs are cleaned at a cleaning station on the ranch and are disposed of in a pit. I don't know of any ranchers who have ever seen a condor in the wild.

I really wish it was so simple, as to ban lead ammunition.

I assume you got to SCI?. Let's due this, lets look ate the data in five years and see if California Condors have less lead in their systems. If they do, I buy dinner, If they don't, I still buy dinner.

Mike,

Some good thoughts that I want to thoroughly address them. BUT...I'm kinda under the gun with two article deadlines. So hang loose a day or so.

In the meantime, you might find this interesting. Just last week, I finished researching and writing an assignment for the National Shooting Sports Foundation's Range Report magazine. It was about an indoor rifle range in Delta Juntion, AK. Rather than recap it, the actual text is below. -TONY



GET THE LEAD OUT

When the adage "get the lead out" became popular during the 1930s, it was a way to tell someone to hurry or get moving. More recently, the saying took on a literal translation when potentially dangerous lead levels showed up at an indoor shooting range in Delta Junction, Alaska.

The smallbore range, operated by the 125-member Delta Sportsman's Association (DSA), serves as the venue for the high school's rifle team and the Delta Deadeyes -- a shooting club for youngsters below high-school age.

DSA president and rifle team coach Mike Bender said they accidentally discovered the lead problem when a routine test in the spring of 2007 showed elevated levels of lead in a 1-year-old child's blood.

Although well below the danger standard set by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) for the work place, the infant's higher-than-normal lead level became a concern. Finding the cause took some detective work, however.

"It just so happens that the child's dad was a volunteer worker at our range and often cleaned the floor after a shooting session. After eliminating many possibilities, they concluded the lead problem was related to the child's habit of chewing his dad's shoes," Bender said.

Subsequent blood tests for the father and a teenage son who shoots on the high school team also revealed above-average lead contamination in their systems. That prompted further testing of all those involved in activities at the DSA range. Nearly everyone, including Bender's teenage son Ryan, showed elevated lead levels.

"Right then we knew we had a problem that needed immediate attention if we wanted to continue operating the range," Bender said.

With all the recent recalls of consumer products, especially toys with lead paint on them, the dangers of lead poisoning has garnered plenty of media attention, thus making the public more aware of the possible health problems that include anemia, nervous system dysfunction, kidney problems, hypertension and infertility. For youngsters, even low lead levels can cause neurological damage leading to learning disabilities and short attention spans.

The lead bullets and primer compounds used at an improperly managed indoor range provides the potential for someone to either inhale lead from the air or to ingest it accidentally after handling firearms and other lead-covered items and then eating, smoking or drinking before washing one’s hands. And that lead will eventually work its way into a person's blood stream.

The National Association of Shooting Ranges (NASR) has been at the forefront of tackling the lead contamination issue for a long time. In 1991, NASR, OSHA and the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) established an alliance to promote safe and healthful working conditions for workers in target shooting facilities.

NASR executive director Rick Patterson feels the lead danger presented by an indoor range is real but is easily prevented using proper management techniques as outlined in the NASR booklet, Airborne Lead Management & OSHA Compliance for Indoor Shooting Ranges.

"We have worked with OSHA not only to develop proper management practices but to also educate range operators," Patterson said. "We encourage all ranges to examine their practices and address the key issues of proper ventilation and maintenance methods to avoid elevated lead levels. Our publication outlines all this and is available to any range for the asking."

The DSA took quick action, finding several items that likely contributed to the high lead levels.

"The first thing we did was install a retractable target system so shooters no longer had to walk downrange to change their targets. We also stopped the kids from sweeping the floor, which was a major cause of the lead dust getting into the air. They probably inhaled plenty of it, too. But even though adults took over the sweeping duty, our main goal was to eliminate it altogether. So my wife wrote up a grant request to the Friends of the NRA. They gave us $4,600, and we immediately looked at solving the floor-sweeping situation," Bender said.

To that end, the club purchased a sophisticated Micromatic 14E Scrubber from a firm in Minneapolis, Minn. The $2,200, walk-behind machine puts down a metal-cutting cleaning solution, scrubs the floor with a rotary brush and immediately sucks up the dirt-laden liquid.

"I first used one of the scrubbing machines at the University of Alaska's range in Fairbanks. So I already knew it would be a good solution for us. It picks up everything as it goes along, and by the time the operator puts his feet down behind the scrubber, the floor is almost dry," Bender said.

An environmental assessment at the range in Oct. 2007 confirmed the scrubber was doing its job.

"When they checked the air quality, the parts per million of lead to air was well below the federal guidelines for a residential house. That's significant, considering the circumstances and amount of lead used at an indoor shooting range compared to a home," Bender said.

Another improvement took the form of personal hygiene habits and the products used. Everyone who uses the range must wash their hands before leaving with UniqueTek's D-Lead® Hand Soap. As the name implies, the special cleaning agent actually provides for the safe and complete removal of lead and other heavy metals.

Bender's club also has several improvements either in progress or planned for the future.

The Delta Junction city council awarded a $40,000 grant to DSA for upgrades to the rifle range's ventilation system. So far, part of that grant has gone to installing two industrial exhaust fans downrange near the targets to help remove dust-laden air during shooting sessions.

"In addition to better insulation, we installed a heater that brings fresh air to the uprange side, and this summer we're putting in an industrial size heat-recovery ventilator so we don't have to throw so much money out into Alaska's cold," Bender said.

The DSA members think their effort is well worth it. Although the high-school rifle team consists of only nine teens, three of them -- Ryan Dunham Bender, Amanda Fisher and Hun Tak -- competed at the USA Shooting's National Junior Olympic Rifle Championships in Colorado Springs in April.

As Bender put it, "That's a pretty good representation from a town with a population of only 800."

Tony,

As long ago as 15 years ago and probably more, standard law enforcement range saftey protocols included.

No eating or smoking with out first washing your hands.

Shower as soon as reasobly possible after range sessions and change clothes.

This is obvioulsy more critical for firearms instrcutors or and other range personnel.

The California DFG also said that there was no definitive proof of condor fatality from spent lead ammunition, but they were overruled. "Project gutpile" and other misinformed anti-gun anti-hunting groups pushed this nonsense through the legislature.

Lead is naturally found in the environment. It is also the result of human activity. Primary among the human causes are automobile exhaust and industrial gases.

The condor, like the dodo bird, are doomed not because of lead, but evolution. The smaller turkey vulture thrives and eats the same diet. The condor feeds on larger game such as the once vast Tule Elk herds. No large roaming creatures means no food. That is not my humble opinion but that of respected biologists in the field.

As chemists and doctors, who are on this board know, lead poisoning requires the lead make its way into the bloodstream. That requires a different physical type of lead than fragmented bullets. Simply because a bird has lead fragments in its intestine does not mean it is the cause of the lead in its blood.

The study that claimed the radioactive isotope of the lead was matched has been debunked. Bullet matching through this and similar processes was rejected as scientifically unsound years ago. It was the subject of 60 minutes story about wrongly accused recently.

Then there is the practice of firearm hunting in the Andean Condor range for the past several hundred years. Had bullet fragments been the cause of lead poisoning, it would have been found in all of So. America, let alone North America.

The range of Condors is tremendous, e.g. 100-200 miles in a day. The current area banned is arbitrary and do not believe it will not expand.

Copper is at historic highs and if it continues to increase, you will pay dearly for this save a vulture program. The Condor program already is one of the most expensive and least successful animal programs in US history. So you will pay at the sporting goods store and to the taxman.

Enforcement of the ban seems to be nearly impossible. We have fewer Game wardens in California per thousand hunters than at anyy other time.

I do not think appeasement or cooperation will help. The aim is to prohibit hunting and make owning and using a firearm prohibitively expensive by outlawing various types of ammunition.

See who is fighting this and other attempts to attack your sport and firearms.

The, vote with your wallet as well as the ballot this fall.
FWIW,
Dave

quote:

Ditto for waterfowl. Lead shot was killing millions of waterfowl because they ingest it like they would small pebbles to aid digestion. They weren't dying because a hunter hit them with a few stray pellets or two.

Please show me the study on millions of waterfowl dieing not a estimate or a guess but facts.

That said my wife's godson is a biologist here in Ca. worked on the Condor project 6 years ago for 1 year and got off of it, he told me then that there plan of attack was lead and the main reason was money $$$ millons where being spent Federal, State, Private, and they could not turn his words THE DUMBEST BIRD IN THE WORLD pop. around he stated to me most working the project felt the only way a bird as dumb as the condor could survive in today world would be in captivaty not in the wild, the people running this program senior Bio. would have nothing to do with that thought as many saw this as there golden egg to retirement.

The sooner these birds die off in the wild the better because i'm sure they will find another scape goat the next go round and i'm sure it will be human trespass or hunting in general as they have had nothing to show for the millons spent on these birds for the last 30+ years.

JUST MAYBE GOD AND MOTHER NATURE HAS SAID THESE BIRDS ARE PAST THERE TIME.

July 1st has came and passed... lead ban is in full effect. So how many California condors have been saved this week?

As most of us realize, this is all a bunch of bullshit. It is a about grant $$$$$$$$ and an opportunity for the anti-hunters to hit us from a different angle.

Many, including some on here, have been duped into believing shitty research. Speaking as both a both a physician and scientist, even Ray Charles could see the gaps in the studies conducted about the adverse effects of lead on condors.

Seriously, think about it. If your lab is bringing in $3 million to study lead levels in a cohort of birds, the incentive to draw favorable conclusions so that ANOTHER grant may be subsequently secured is obviously too tempting to pass up... the cycle continues generating salaries and securing a future for themselves, not the Ca. Condor. With the added support of anti-hunters desperately fueling their agenda via propaganda and bullshit "scientific" studies, they've got a "Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner!"

I'm discussed about not being able to legally shoot a ground squirrels in the foothills with a .22 long rifle. BULLSHIT! I guess I'll just have to become an "outlaw" then...

-Kenati

P.S. My brother and I ran around for years as kids with a mouthful of Sheridan and Crossman pellets shooting vermin, swallowing that soupy saliva of lead and sweet oil. Guess what? I'm alive and doing well. Even had my lead levels checked; A-okay! This chickin' is still kickin'!

I belive the same fake logic for waterfowl is use for gobal warming. The study that started it all I belive back in the 50's.

A researcher took 400 dead ducks given him by hunters. He cut out the gizzards found some lead in them and said well with these lead levels millions of ducks must be dieing of lead poisoning.

Well the start was on being good sportsman wanting the best for are game we jumbed on the ban wagon and pushed for banning lead shot.

How many more millions of ducks and other game birds have died and were wasted because of the lacking of killing power of steel shot.

The banners said well we only have to ban it were there are high numbers of hunter and high numbers of birds in a small area. Then only over water.
Now they want a ban every where. Well BS the chances of a up land game bird in most areas first off finding then eating a lead pellet is slim. Here in the northwoods I would bet a lot of money that 99 percent of a load of lead shot ends up stuck into trees. where they can't not axcess it.

Lead bullet bans and lead shot bans are now the farvorite tatics of the anti hunters knowing that if they make it harder to hunt the less people well do it.

p dog shooter

AGREE 100%

Back in the early 70's I was asked by feds at a state run waterfowl area for the gizzards out of my ducks they where looking for lead pellets they did over 700 ducks in a week and never found a pellet.

Back in the early 80's USFWS was asking for steel in selected areas not nation wide anti hunting group threatend to sue over bald eagles which were on ESL eating dead ducks which they said ingested lead USFWS never went to court just accepted nation wide change to steel.

So why is there not huge die off's of waterfowl now that come back north from Mexico, or waterfowl in SA, DON'T GIVE ME THIS LOW HUNTER NUMBERS CRAP

I hunt d7 when I get around to hunting. my stepfather has been hunting that area for 49 years, and has never seen a condor, ever. in my opinion whomever originated the idea for this bill should be sued for the cost of one box of ammo for every single hunter having to switch.

I consider myself a great fan of nature, and a good steward. I also believe that we are the top of the chain man, God gave man dominion, not owls, condors or big eared mice. when a handful of animals dictate the actions and choices of millions we have gone too far.

I see this as being a great thing really, it's going to get WAY out of hand. you have a lot of older hunters out there that get their rifle out once a year to hunt, they buy ammo wherever they can get it or use old boxes they had. they don't know where to get, or want to pay for, the no lead stuff. they're going to be hunting anyways, and that's going to open up two doors of wickedness I think. 1. warden's who insist on enforcing the stupid rule are going to give the guys a hard time, try to confiscate things. old, angry guys aren't going to want to. you do the math.
2. guys that do see condors are going to put 2 and 2 together and realize "Hey, if there are no more condors maybe they'll undo this moronic rule" bang, there goes an endangered bird. what'll be the ironic thing is when they find birds killed with non-lead ammunition.

I just talked to a friend that hunts every single year, he's angry, he can't find the ammo for his rifle anywhere.

Me, I've got solids for my 375h&h, I guess I'll just have to use that

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I hunt d7 when I get around to hunting. my stepfather has been hunting that area for 49 years, and has never seen a condor, ever. in my opinion whomever originated the idea for this bill should be sued for the cost of one box of ammo for every single hunter having to switch.

I consider myself a great fan of nature, and a good steward. I also believe that we are the top of the chain man, God gave man dominion, not owls, condors or big eared mice. when a handful of animals dictate the actions and choices of millions we have gone too far.

I see this as being a great thing really, it's going to get WAY out of hand. you have a lot of older hunters out there that get their rifle out once a year to hunt, they buy ammo wherever they can get it or use old boxes they had. they don't know where to get, or want to pay for, the no lead stuff. they're going to be hunting anyways, and that's going to open up two doors of wickedness I think. 1. warden's who insist on enforcing the stupid rule are going to give the guys a hard time, try to confiscate things. old, angry guys aren't going to want to. you do the math.
2. guys that do see condors are going to put 2 and 2 together and realize "Hey, if there are no more condors maybe they'll undo this moronic rule" bang, there goes an endangered bird. what'll be the ironic thing is when they find birds killed with non-lead ammunition.

I just talked to a friend that hunts every single year, he's angry, he can't find the ammo for his rifle anywhere.

Me, I've got solids for my 375h&h, I guess I'll just have to use that

Red

Red, too bad solids even in a 375 are illegal.