The 30-06 thread got me wondering what you 30-06 users are actually getting over the chrono with 180's.

**** Please give load data (if you want) and barrel length. Also include any factory 180 gr. chrono readings including "high energy" loads. Let's limit this to 180 grainers as that's the best weight to compare with the various 300's.

I'm not trying to stir up controversy, I genuinely want to know what folks are getting. I've owned only two 30-06's, one which I handloaded for years ago before I had a chronograph, and one Win 70 I currently have (and which I haven't shot) which will be turned into, as my friend Mark Dobrenski calls it, a "30-06 Improved" (aka 270 Win!).

Also, I've just started loading for a short-barreled 300 WSM (22") and want to see how it compares to the 30-06.

Thanks,

Brad

Brad,
I load for my son's .30-06, 60.5gr RL22 under a 180gr NP. From his 22" bbl. Ruger I get right @ 2750fps.Me. I prefer the .338-06 W/ a 210g NP @ the same vel. Godd hunting!

Brad,

Here's what I've done with my semi-custom M700 SS LH 30-06 (no longer made) with a medium weight 24 inch barrel.

210 Fed. primers
62 gr. RL 22
180 gr. Barnes XBT
2807-2824 fps per chrono

Here's what got using the same chrono but with factory Federal Premium HE's with 180 gr. Trophy Bear Claws.

2804-2809 fps per chrono.

Pretty much the same speed all around for me.
I don't feel the need pep-it up anymore for my use.

If I feel the need to hit any harder, I break out my .338 WM.

Brad, my current .30-06 was built by Darrell Holland on a Model 70 action with a 22" Hart barrel. With Winchester cases, IMR4831 powder, Federal 210M primers, and 180 gr. Nosler Partition bullets I get just over 2750 fps. This same rifle produces just over 2800 fps. with Federal's High-Energy 180 gr. Nosler Partition load. These velocities are what my old Oehler 33 chronograph (not a swami's crystal or wishful thinking) say that I'm getting. Those velocities are some 300 fps. slower than what I'm getting (also by actual chronograph test) out of my .300 Winchester (24" barrel) with identical bullets.

An yet the drugstore cowboys are still screaming that there's "nothing more versatile" than the .30-06. Yeah. Right!
If that rational holds true, then consistent logic should dictate that the '06 guys should trade their rifles in on guns chambered for the .300 Savage cartridge.......

AD

[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 03-05-2002).]

I have my personal chorongraph records going back to 1969 not counting the chronograph I made under my moms cellar stairs in the early 50's.

3-8-1969 30/06 180 gr Rem pt Corelokt factory load JC Higgins 22" bbl 2668 instrumental.

3-8-1969 30/06 180 gr Silvertip factory load. 2618 instrumental.

3-8-1969 30/06 180 Sierra RN 47.5 gr imr 4064 Rem Enfield P-17 24" bbl 2475 fps.

3-8-1969 30/06 180 Sierra Spitzer 60 gr 4831 24" bbl 2678 fps.

1-30-1971 30/06 180 Sierra Matchking 58 gr 4831 M-70 Match rifle 24" bbl. 2574 fps.

Over the decades these loads have proven to be plenty for my hunting. I have never needed even this much power.

But I bought a 300 Win mag anyway for the fun of it. A friend had it and I had shot the #1 with it's 26" bbl and it grouped well. He has the chrony records done on my new at the time Pact the other records are done with my old accucron.

The velocity with the .300 mag and the 180 gr is about 3000 fps with 72 gr of imr 4350. this is almost max with this rifle. I supppose that I could get 3100 out of it but I don't need that.

The 30/06 rifles I have for hunting now all have 22" bbls and weigh about 8 lbs with scopes. The Ruger 300 mag weighs 9.5 lbs with it's Leupold 3.5X10 and it's a really pretty rifle but it's heavy. I got it out of the safe to look at it while I type this and it has the ballistics taped to the butt stock with drop and drift data out to 600 yards. Looking at the numbers however I think it's all done at the 400 yard mark.

So when I go hunting I put at least a couple of rifles in the trunk. I reach for the ligher, handier 30/06's when any walking or climbing needs to be done. And if I plan on sitting and watching then the .300 Mag is ok but even then it's heavy and clumsy.

I really have no use for a .300 mag. I got it for the fun of it. If it was the only rifle I had I would cut the bbl to 22" and load it down to 30/06 ballistics. That's just right for most hunting.

There you have it. The 30/06 is the most versitile.

I really don't even know what a "drug store cowboy" is! Maybe it means a make believe person? I suppose all kinds of people own 30/06's but somehow I don't think their character is different than others who prefer other calibers for general hunting use. I am a life member of the NRA like my son and my father before me. I have won many matches on the highest levels and hunted down and killed my own game since 1954. I am an American Rifleman.

I happen to like all calibers but as I have matured I find that unless there is a major difference in their size and velocity that they are really all about the same in actual performance.

So for a special use my 300 mag suits me. But for day in and day out hunting I leave it in the trunk.

Allen it's not that difficult, the 30/06 offers a blend of velocity,that provides ample power for most N. american hooved animals out to 350 yards. All of this in a package that recoils less then a 300 mag,costs less then a 300mag and is just as effective at killing animals out to 350yards as the 300 mag.
Your comparison of the 30/06 to a 300 savage holds no water. For the simple fact that in a 300 mag that extra 300 fps over the 30/06,does very little to improve performance of a round that is used out to 350 yards. Yet the 300-500 fps gain that the 30/06 has over the 300savage is much more significant,in that it provides for sufficient velocity at the 300 yard mark, when a 180 grain bullet is used. Basicly that 300-500fps gain over a 300savage is what makes the 30/06 a solid 300 plus yard elk rifle,just like that 300 fps gain over the 30/06,makes the 300mag a better round past 400 yards.
When you consider that the vast majority of big game hunters shoot most game at 200 yards or less,and on top of that most can't even consistantly hit targets beyond 300 yards,the last thing they'll utilize is a 300 mag.
Back to the topic, I can safely reach 2850fps with 180gr partition 61grs of RL22 out of M721 30/06 with 24inch tube. I have a second 30/06 with 22inch barrel and it will average between 2800-2805 with the above load. I've shot the hornady light mags in the M721 and they chrony at anywhere from 2880-2885fps.Really not enough extra velocity to warrant the extra cost.
I've got a feeling this thread has something to do with your 300wsm brad.
I'd really like to see if a 300wsm chambered in a standard length action, would be able to safely produce real 300 mag velocities(3100fps with 180gr bullets),instead of the weak 2950. You can reach 2950 with the 30/06 ackley and not have a belt,use standard 06 rounds and only use around 62 or 63 grains of powder and the 30/06ackley is considered one of the worst ackley improved's.
Sorry,but I don't see the advantage of the 300wsm over what already exsists for hunting purposes. I believe the round may have some benefits to the bench rest crowd,but that extra accuracy wont benefit hunters,who already have tons of highly accurate 300win mags.This isn't to say it wont be a sales success,people are famous for buying things based on what they see advertised.

Brad

According to my notebook:

A 180gr NP pushed by 57gr of IMR4831 crosses my cronograph at 2719fps.

A 180gr NP pushed by 59gr of IMR4831 crosses my cronograph at 2803fps.

Both Remington and Winchester 180gr factory loads give just over 2700fps.

All above data is from a 22 inch shilen barrel on a 1909 action. COL was 3.330.

Jason

[This message has been edited by J Brown (edited 03-05-2002).]

Good morning Brad-my old G33/40 when it was a 06 had a 21" tube(I knew you'd love that)
Anyway it would pretty much day in and day out clock at 2650 with a 180 Hornady or Nozler Pt. I pretty much always used IMR 4350. I couldn't get much more speed than that but then again it always worked.

But as you know now that rifle is a 06 IMPROVED! Grins!!!

"GET TO THE HIILL"

Dog

(I'll be back in my house Sat-it'll feel darn good after 7 months on the road-I start with MRP on Monday)

one last thing, just for fun I'd love to put on a magnum length tube and see what I could run for speed out of a 06

[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 03-05-2002).]

In my 24" Sako, my comfortable load of IMR 4350 behind a 180 Nosler old-style solid base give 2800 fps over my Oehler screens.

I recently acquired a very similar Sako .300 Winchester with a 24" barrel. Although I haven't had time to work extensively with it, it looks like an additional 250 fps is the most you can expect from it, and at similar pressures, it may be more like 200 fps.

Admittedly, comparing two different barrels is apples and oranges, but I suspect that the 200 fps is an average improvement with the magnum, and 300 fps can only be achieved with higher pressures than used in the '06.

For reference, my working load with a 150 grain Nosler B.T. in this '06 gives 3000 fps.

Is the difference in the '06 and the .300 magnum significant? Depends on what you regard as significant. The magnum will deliver the same energy about 100 yards further away, and at the longer practical ranges requires an inch or two less elevation correction. You be the judge.

My Winchester M70 Ranger pushes a 180 PP at 2600fps. My Ruger M77MKII 300 Win Mag pushes the same bullet at 3050fps. Big difference. This is factory loaded ammo.

Brad-
It's been several years since I have done any 30/06 testing but my notes indicate that I achieved 2770fps with 180gr Noslers, using 58grs IMR-4831. My rifle is an old M70 FWT with a 22" barrel.
Another 30/06 I used to own had a Douglass 22" barrel and it showed 2790fps with that same load. Notes indicate these were the most accurate tested and pressure was okay.
I think you're previous description of the 300mag was one of the best I have heard! " 300s offer the trajectory of a 270 with the punch of a 338" or something to that effect. Quite true and that is why I like using one so much!

1937 VZ-24 W/24" Kimber bbl, 180g nosler balistic tip/59.0g IMR4831/ CCI250 = 2836fps (Oehler33)

OOP'S

[This message has been edited by tsturm (edited 03-07-2002).]

3836 fps?! Wow, I want me one of those Kimber barrels! Do you mean 2836?

Folks keep getting me in trouble when I post loads, but my 24" M70 can safely get 2825 fps with IMR4831 and Hornady 180 grain Spire Points or 180 Nosler Partitions. But I usually load 180's to around 2750-2775 fps - there isn't but a fraction of an inch difference in trajectory and it kills stuff just as dead at that level.

Ranger Dave: That's cheating. You're using 2 (or is it 4?) inches more barrel in your Magnum, and, although you don't specify exactly which factory loads, it is common for the '06 to be loaded 5,000 to 7,500 psi below the .300 Magnum. The reason for this, of course, is that the '06 has some guns nearly 100 years old chambered for it and also appears in a variety of weaker actions (for example, Model 95 Winchester lever) than the .300 Magnum.

Loaded to the same pressures and fired from the same barrels, as I said, the average difference is probably about 200, maybe 250 fps in favor of the .300 Winchester Magnum. Also as I said, some people (including me) may consider this of some significance.

By the way, I suspect that 3050 with factory loads in the .300 mag is well above the norm.

Thanks for the replies guys.

When I get a moment I tally it all up and post the information here.

"You can reach 2,950 with the 30-06 Ackley and not have a belt."

The 30-06 Ackley is still a semi-wildcat while the 300 WSM, which unless it grew one overnight, still DOESN'T have a belt. Also, it achieves 2,950 fps with a 22" bbl. (over 3,000 ft with a 24" bbl) in a STANDARD FACTROY (non-wildcat) guise. The Winchester SA accomodates cartridges out to 3.00" and as of now is loaded by Olin and Federal as well as Norma... not bad for a round just released.

BA

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 03-06-2002).]

OK... here's the velocity tally:

180 Grain Handloads:

21" bbl... (one, and of course, always different, Mark D's) 2,650 fps

22" bbl's... 2,750, 2,750, 2,802, 2,770, 2,790, 2,803 (average: 2,778 fps)

24" bbl's... 2,816, 2,678, 2,850, 2,836, 2,800, 2825 (average: 2,801 fps, 2,825 less the lightest load)

180 Grain High Energy and Light Magnum loads:

22" bbl's... 2,800

24" bbl's... 2,807, 2,883, (average: 2,845 fps)

I didn't include regualr (non-HE) factory loads as most of them were pretty slow. Also, when one individual gave multiple handloads for the 180's, I only included the fastest load. If an individual gave a "velocity spread" for a load, I just averaged it.

Interestingly, we had six handloads in 22" barrels and six in 24" barrels to average. Don's load skewed the data for the 24" tube's a bit as he obviously runs his loads slow. Dropping Don's load, the average went to 2,825 fps for 24" tubes... that's basically 50 fps more than 22" tubes, or 25 fps per inch of barrel... where have I heard that before!?

Sooo, a 22" bbl'd 30-06 can reasonably be expected to run at 2,775 fps with 180 gr. handloads and a 24" bbl'd 30-06 at 2,825 fps with 180 gr. handloads.

Best Regards,

Brad

BTW... my 19" bbl'd 308 Win carbine would run 180's at a smidge over 2,600 fps (RL15) and the Federal 180 NP HE load went just (barely) over 2,700 fps.

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 03-14-2002).]

One more to add to the mix: This week I had to load some Nosler Partitions to replace the Nosler Solid Base 180's which I had run out of. I was also short on IMR 4350, so I used VV N160.

Where 58 grains of 4350 had given 2800 fps in a 24" barrel, 58 grains of N160 yielded 2750 fps. Slighly more N160 would easily match the 4350 in velocity, but I wanted to hold the pressure on these down because they might be used in warm weather in South Texas for nilgai. Also, N 160 is somewhat new to me, so I didn't want to push it on the pressure side. For a comparison, a trial load of 60 grains of original surplus 4831 gave 2785 fps with the same bullet.