Well gang, I just unpacked my gear from my recent hunting trip, including my guns, and what a blow in the head. My most favorite rifle, and absolutely the most beautiful gunstock I have ever owned, on my Sauer 202 Takedown was shattered through the wrist. Air Tran and TSA screwing me mutually IMO. The rifle was packed in a soft case inside of a pelican double rifle case, as tough of a system as I can think of.

I include TSA in my hosing due to the fact that the case had been opened after the initial inspection upon check in and my signature of the 'firearms declaration' that goes inside of the case. The reason I know this is that my wood stocked 202 Takedown was inside of the soft case inside the pelican case, and the Synthetic Sauer 202, my other rifle for the trip was inside the pelican case, but not in a soft case as well. When I just opened the case the rifles had been swapped around, the wood stock alone in the pelican case, and the synthetic inside of the soft case. I don't really know if it would have mattered, but my wood stocked rifle definitely took a beating during it's transit. It was dinged up quite a bit, and of course the crack through the wrist.

I don't know how I'll ever get another buttstock only from Sauer over here in the states, it is a nightmare just to get a barrel (which I can't seem to do but every blue moon) or extra magazine, much less a new buttstock. I will call Air Tran later to see if it's just a lost cause, which I assume it is, but maybe my homeowners insurance could give me some relief????, I'm a life member of the NRA, maybe I'll shoot them an e-mail

Right now I think I'll just cry a little bit.....

I posted a bit of this on the medium bore forum as well, if anybody has ideas how to obtain a new buttstock, I would appreciate the input,

Thanks--Don

Don
I FEEL your PAIN.
See my post in the double rifle forum.
No doubt the baggage handlers could break an anvil with a tack hammer.

Don,

So sorry to hear that. I just made three trips with a new Pelican rifle case model 1750. One with my Sauer 202 and twice with my Remington ADL.

Pelican 1750 Case

Did you have the rifles loose in the case or cut into foam? Not sure how you got a soft case in there too with foam. Now I'm worried about travelling with my Sauer 202. I had thought this case was indestructible.

I hope you can replace the stock. I was able to buy an additional magazine and barrel for my rifle pretty easily but I'm sure getting a stock is a taller order.

sorry man

-Sean

NE 450 No2 and Sean, thanks for the comments. I read your post NE 450 No2, I hate you had a similar experience. Geez.....

Sean, my case is almost identical to the one you posted the link to, it's a double rifle version, and the center pieces of foam are out, and the rifle in a kinda thin soft case compacts in there real nice. A rifle not in a case doesn't move around either, I've marked them with a sharpie, and when opening the case, the rifles are just where they started at, I actually wonder if someone just got the gun out of the case and dropped it on the ground somehow and split the stock, but whatever they did after getting it out of the soft case inside the pelican case, I got hosed.....I'll try and post a pic later when I'm not so depressed.

So SAD!!!! Get in contact with Pelican. Maybe they have some relief for you. Being a premiem case manufacturer would probably be just as sad as you. I bet they will help you. Just a suggestion.

I only fly with guns about twice a year, but I thought once the airline inspected the gun that was it. When I have traveled with guns, the airline and/or TSA look at the gun, confirm that is unloaded, sign the orange card, then close and lock the case. Then the gun is sent to the plane.

I guess I don't understand how the airline and/or TSA got into the case without you present. I know TSA can search luggage at random, but I thought locked gun cases were different.

You still got screwed either way.

Don,

I agree, it sounds like someone took the rifle out of the case and dropped it.

I'd call TSA and see how far you can get. They are most likely the only idiots that would have opened the case and they should cough up some $$$ for repairs.

Reloader

Don,

Sorry to hear of your mess.

If it helps I know a gunsmith that used to work for Sauer and has done custom stocking on 202's since he went out on his own. If you don't want a custom buttstock he might still have connections at Sauer to help get a match.

Email me if you'd like his contact info.

Kyler

quote:

It was dinged up quite a bit, and of course the crack through the wrist.

Wouldn't something else inside the guncase also have to be dinged up? Also, were your locks chopped off? How else did anyone get to the contents?

It's a shame what happened. But I think you might have defeated the manufacturer's design by taking out their foam and putting your soft case in its place, ala TuffPak. And you know what happened to 500 grains and NE 450 No2's guns in soft cases in a TuffPak.

If TSA opened the case at all, they are supposed to put their printed information card inside as well. I've had them do this even if I am standing there watching. If there isn't any card, then I would doubt TSA opened the case.

Bill

This is another good reason to check your guns before you leave the terminal.... I collect mine and go to the "lost luggage" area and tell the clerk I'm going to open my gun case to make sure they haven't sustained any damage during shipment.....the only time I had problem with a nervouse clerk I just ask her to call Security so they could watch.

I started doing this after a friend got home and found out his 2-rifle case only held one rifle and the airlines told him he should have checked before he left the terminal.

DB Bill, that is a good practice, which I will implement oon future travels.

There was a card from TSA in the case, which wasn't there when the bag was left at the check in. Ga Hunter, I thought that was the case as well, but now I know better.

I just assume that it was rough bag handling after the gun was swapped position with the other rifle. Trust me, the rifle in the soft case inside of the pelican case ain't going anywhere inside of that case, it taking a blow or whatever though, who knows--it does seem a decent theory that someone may have dropped the rifle when out of the case, which someone definitely did.

I think DB Bill, has the answer though, I should have inspected the rifles before I got out of the airport with them---I'll try and post a pic later, this case is about as solid of a setup as I can imagine.......in the meantime, I'll be trying to get a new Sauer buttstock I guess.

Thanks for the feedback guys--Don

I believe bolt rifles have a higher possibility of being damaged in the wrist area of the stock by leaving the bolt in the action when traveling. I think the travel case can be bent by an uneven piling on of other heavy luggage this allowing the bolt handle to act as a fulcrum snapping the wrist area. Therefore, I take the bolt out of my rifle when flying.

Sorry that happened to you Fish. Good advice from DB Bill about taking time to check your rifles before leaving the terminal. I have not done that before but plan to start. How did they get into your case without destroying the locks on your travel case?

Buliwyf

Great idea DB. The other thing all of you should do is ask for extra insurance from the airline. They will bitch & say it's not available but it's something like $20/$1000 las time I went across the pond. You can also carry seperate ins. through SCI or add it to trip insurance. It doesn't stop the pain but doies take the edge off.

Fred.....all of my guns are insured thru an insurance agency affiliated with the ATA. The NSSA, and SCA. The rate is about 1.25 to 1.5% of value per year and current production guns are insured for full retail price. Other firearms are insured for a mutually agreed upon value. Insured risks include theft/damage during travel and shipment (includes UPS, Post Office, AirLines etc) anywhere in the world you may go.

About the only thing that isn't covered is theft from an unlocked vehicle --- they need some sort of proof of illegal entry if stolen from a vehicle.

I've had two claims over the past 20 years -- a pair of engraved Perazzi shotguns were stolen from my car at a trap shoot ---- jimmied the trunk in broad daylight in a big parking lot. I had a check in my hand within 2 weeks of submitting the paperwork.

The second occured when another Perazzi was stolen from a gun rack at the local gun club -- I was about 15 feet away talking to some other shooters and when I went to get my gun it was gone. Again payment was prompt. These occured about 3 years apart almost 15 years ago.

Because of the number and value of the guns I own the check I write each year is substantial but well worth the peace of mind.

Buliwyf, that's and interesting point, I'm open to suggestions, and I will take the bolt out from now on--never thought of that before.....

DB Bill, I would be interested in contact info on that insurance program, I would definitely consider that.

Here are some pics of my case/soft case setup, and the rifle itself.




I think you can see the split stock here pretty clearly.

Fish,

I'll play the devil's advocate here and suggest that your stock appears to be broken due to recoil (poor stock/action bedding) rather than being mishandled by the baggage handlers.

You never did answer this that I can find... Were your locks broken? If not... How did someone get into the case to damage the stock?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not accusing you of anything... Jus trying to get you to think "outside the box".

$bob$

I had peep sights bent and a scope broken while flying. I gave the TSA asswipe the keys, he unlocked the case and wiped the rifles for gunpowder residue, or so he told me. Then verified the rifles were unloaded. As he was putting the rifles in I asked him to put the rifles back in the same place in the same position and make sure they weren't touching the sides. He stopped, looked at me, told me I couldn't stand where I was standing and made me move to a place where I couldn't see him. He brought me back my keys in a little bit and I was merrily on my way. When I checked my rifles in the parking lot of the airport on my arrival, I saw the problem with the scope. I went in to complain, and I started a series of bureaucratic "wait here, sir". After an hour, I said screw it...and chalked it up to experience. I found the peep sight problem later. hiho

Hve you contacted TSA via thier web site and filed a claim ? dont know if it will do any good but I shure would try.
Sorry for your loss.

LD Hunter, the locks have the keys where TSA can come and go as they wish. They had put their card in there saying the case had been inspected or whatever. I've actually had them open a rifle case after the initial check in once before. I ain't buying that a recoil induced crack just showed up, and this severely at that, after the flight, and that the rifles were switched in position was just a coincidence. As someone else postulated, I can visualize someone droppping my rifle, cracking it, and then hurridly placing both rifles back into the soft case and hard case, inadvertently switching the rifle's positions.

Prdator, I haven't gone that route on the TSA website, but I will, didn't know that was and option. Air Tran just told me to pound sand basically......

I'm not a big fan of the Pelican cases, I've used Kalispel for years & have yet to have anyone at the airlines get into my case or have any damage to my guns, they would have to cut locks to get into my case.

Hey Don, Your NRA Insurance should cover it.

Best of luck to you.

NRA Insurance

After looking at the photos for a couple of minutes, I have another theory. The crack looks like a pressure break, as when significant weight is applied. Often, baggage is moved with fork lifts. Does the exterior of the case show any damage or any marks that weren't there before? A fork could have been set onto the case, or it coud have even backed over. I am not familiar with that particular case, but if it's springy enough, the latter is entirely possible.

The fact that I don't see significant scuffs around the break itself tells me it may not have been dropped. Of course, that's just opinion.

Just my .02

...or maybe some anti-gun, anti-hunting fella helped things along when nobody was looking...?

Put the butt on the floor, hang onto the barrel, and stomp?

Pretty hard to do that kind of damage and not have some evidence on the outside of the case, and while the synthetic stocked rifle would have been harder to break, it should have acted as a 'stiffener' to make the wood stock harder to break.

Guns sure seem to get damaged a lot, compared to other baggage....if they're so damn worried about what's in gun cases, why don't they just x-ray them instead of having to open them? Surely, an x-ray would reveal any cartridges in the magazine or the barrel.

Tumbleweed, I sure agree with you. It is the second time that I have had TSA (or someone 'back there') open my rifle case after the check in with TSA up front. SDESHAZO, I'll look into a Kalispel case, I've seen them before, and I'm not averse to going to a new case. The case does have a few scratches and scrapes that it didn't before the flight, but it seems like that is always the case. I'm not sure at all what happend, but rough handling of your baggage is almost a given. It is just very interesting to me that someone opened the case, and the rifles were switched in their positions, I don't guess it matters, the stock is fried nonetheless.

Since the Sauer butt stock is really more like a shotgun stock, the sides on the front that fit to the receiver are pretty thin, I remember the first time I took it off thinking that. I think someone could have done that by dropping it.

That sure is a gorgeous stock, is that a restock by serenghetti? Maybe you could pm me with details, cost, time to get something like that done?

-Sean

richards microfit could probably duplicate a stock for you from the origional. i doubt if it would match the forearm but you could always have it made to match too.

Conch ---- don't wuff on the NRA insurance. You get $1,000 free and you can buy another $49,000 worth if you want. I've had several friends collect when their skeet guns were stolen from their locked Tahoe while attending the World Skeet Shoot in San Antonio, TX. It took them a little while (about 2 months) to get the money but both claims were in excess of $10,000....they had, of course, the extended coverage.

Fish30114 --- the insurance company I'm with now is Sportsman's Insurance AGency, Inc 1450 North US 1, Suite 500 in Ormond Beach, FL 32174
Ph 1-800-925-7767 You must belong to either the ATA, SSSA, NSCA or some other shooting organization for coverage...the NRA insurance is about the same price but there is a little more paperwork involved.

As someone who has victimized several times let me give a word of advice about firearm insurance...(1) get specific insurance on each firearm and (2) have an exclusion put on your home-owner's insurance so your firearm's aren't covered.

If you don't do this your gun insurance will deduct the amount of coverage from the home-owner's policy so you paid that amount of the premium ofr nothing and the bigger issue is your home-owner's insurance coverage rate will go up and there's a good chance they will cancel your coverage ---- it happened to me and it is a real pain in the butt to find insurance when a company has cancelled you.

fish30114 -- I forgot to ask.

When you checked in at the airline counter did you just drop off your rifle or did the counter attendant tell you to either take it or follow it down to the TSA area to be screened....the case should have been locked until the TSA people ask you for the key to open it.

They are supposed to open it in your presence to check it .... and then re-lock it and return your key. The firearm's case should never be unlocked unless it's in your presence. The only luggage TSA is authorized to open if it's locked is what I call "common baggage" and that does not include locked luggage that contains firearms they have already checked.

This is a link to their "plain language" rule on firearms and ammo....it's a hazy when compared to what the actual regs say.,,,unfortunately I can't find the link to the actual regs.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

DB Bill, there was a TSA guy who looked at the rifles as I put the firearms declaration that you sign and place in the case at the ticket/check in counter. The locks were locked in his presence, but they are the type where their (TSA's) key will work on them. I'm really not amazed that the case was opened, I've had that happen once before as I mentioned, I'm just disappointed that the airline basically says stick it in your ear, we bear no responsibility for your damaged rifle, no matter the cause......

When they saw the TSA approved locks someone must have thought it was regular checked luggage and opened it. The "secret" is not to use TSA locks (actually it's against the TSA regs to use them as only the owner is supposed to be able to open the case and by using TSA locks you didn't follow the regs) but to use quality locks -- either with a key or combination.


The one thing to be learned from this is don't use TSA locks on gun cases - it's against the regs and it just confuses them,.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. My guess is gorilla baggage handlers.

I really don't think I'd ever use a Pelican case that way though. They are designed for the center foam to be cut out, and I wouldn't feel comfortable removing that foam and using a soft gun case. Here's how I use mine...



Cheers,
Canuck

As for the stock...If you cannot get a factory replacment. You will be able to glue the broken stock together to duplicate the original. The grip cap can be salvaged and I think the good news is pick the right stockmaker and you will be able to forget this. I recommend David Christman Delhi, La 318 878-1395 His word is good. gduffey

Canuck, your pelican case looks a little larger than mine, 2 rifles are really close in mine...the center foam was didfferent as well, only on the ends, and it was the pick and pluck stuff, there wasn't a center piece like yours where you could cut it to fit that way, I like yours! I've always thought the Pelican case was pretty damn tough, but I would like that foam set up for sure, those locks look just like mine......

DB Bill, I had no idea on the TSA locks being wrong or confusing, several of the TSA folks have actually complimented me on having 'their' locks on my case.....I've got some 1/4" hasp padlocks that I'll use from now on, they'd need a pretty good bolt cutter to get them off.

Sean, no this stock was a straight Sauer factory stock with upgraded wood, took 2+ years for the rifle to arrive, and it was ordered by someone else who sold the rifle to me. I've had Serengeti stock two regular (not takedown) 202's for me, and I think the geometry is the same, so that is my fallback position right now, as well as following up on the lead a few have posted, it will be pricey though I'm sure.

Gduffey, thanks for the lead, I'll be following up with David too.

Regards---Don

Not wanting to hijack this thread but, the other day, there was a news report about TSA employee theft.......since 2002, there have been 165 TSA employees arrested for theft.....from 2002-2004 there were over 28,00 loss complaints w/total estimated value of $36 million dollars....victims didn't recover much from TSA....the TSA press person stated that only 165 bad employees out of 60,000 wasn't too bad.

Do a web search for "tsa employee theft" and you'll be amazed at what you read......

I don't think you'll get any help from TSA on your rifle stock after reading about TSA.

HOMELAND SECURITY......uh, yeah, right.....

Joe

DB Bill I also have a couple aquantences at the club I belong too , Guns gone from theft and the NRA paid $000.00 Told them to as your statement [Homeowners Ins] One rifle stolen from car breakin , The other from garage whick had locks ! I have been a NRA member for years ! Never had to ask them for anything for stolen firearms ! Thank you for the extra info about insurance . concho