What wouldnt you hunt with a 300 win mag Shooting 200gr Barnes TSX's at 3005fps or a 220gr Partition going 2909fps in NA? I dont get it people talk about the 35 whelen or the 338/06 or the 358 win for the big bears when a 300 mag has more juice than all of them? Yes they might have a little more bullet weight and a bigger bullet DIA but Energy has to account for something look at a 300 win shooting a 200gr bullet at 3000fps it has 4000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle how can that not be enough for the big bears when most are shot at 100 yards or less? I would take that combo over a 338/06 shooting a 225gr at 2600fps when a Brown is charging me I know that.

dakor
The 300 Mag may be the best allround rifle for NA....
However if a big bear was charging me I would prefer my 9,3x74R or my 450/400. I just feel better with a big heavy bullet and 2 barrels.

Quail

dakor,
I bought into your post until you mentioned a preference for a .308 bullet (any weight) over a larger and heavier bullet for dangerous game. Energy does count, but not as much as one might think. The figures we use to compare similar cartridges via energy can be somewhat misleading. For starters, the kinetic energy measured in footpounds is not even a linear measurement. While it may mean something on small and medium sized game, a charging Kodiak represents an entirely different scenario. Energy calculations rely on on squaring velocity, favoring fast and lightweight bullets. When Taylor devised his KO formula, he relied more on momentum because he knew that the biggest and meanest beasts don't really care too much about footpounds. It requires big holes and good penetration, irrespective of what major bones get in the way, to stop the charge of an animal that can kill you.

I won't deny that the 300 WinMag is a great cartridge. I have a custom Mauser 98 in that chambering, and I love it. It's just that it would not be my first choice for game that can kill me before he decides to give up the ghost because he doesn't know he's dead yet. I would rather have a heavier bullet with a bigger diameter, even if the velocity is not above Mach III, without regard to published muzzle energy, as long as it gets to the boiler room.

Have you ever seen the movie, "Jeremiah Johnson"? Jeremiah came across a dead mountain man, frozen stiff. The stiff left his rifle to whomever found it, with a note saying, "This is a good gun. It kilt the bar that kilt me."

Turkey

If I would do it with a 30/06 and a 180 grain TSX I would do it with a 300 winny and a 200 TSX.

I use a .300 Wby for caribou and animals similar to or smaller than caribou, using 180 grain NP bullets. This is an excellent caribou weapon. But I would not try and push it into heavier service. Any of the .300 mags (or even a .30-06) will kill anything. But there are a bunch of animals that I personally would prefer to use a larger rifle on: brown bear, moose, and elk. I know that the .30-06 and the .300 Wby can kill grizzly bears but I also know that a .416 at close range will not stop a brown bear charge, which was demonstrated this spring in Pybus Bay, Admiralty Island. I think .300 mags (of any type) are excellent for animals up to the size of caribou (400 pounds more or less). Beyond this, a .338 is good, a .375 is better, and a .416 is best.

As far as foot-pounds goes, I prefer foot-pounds with a big hole. Bigger bullets make bigger holes and break more stuff faster. Bigger bullets that go faster slow down slower and break more stuff longer. A .338 bullet will always kill faster than a .308 caliber bullet, everything else being held the same. That is why eveyone likes .375 H&Hs...I personally use a .378.

Come on now. The .300 Win Mag being too small for elk? Seriously! I saw last winter an elk shot by a .300 win mag with 180 grain power-points make a blood trail 3 feet wide (no joke) and about 30 feet long until the elk was found dead. Dont underestimate the .300's! I would go after the big bears with the .300 winny and 200 grain X's. When did elk and moose become bullet proof? You dont need Armor Piercing bullets to knock those things down! Its called shot placement! If i were hunting big bears with the .300, i would definitely wait until i have a perfect shot opportunity. All this talk about needing a .338 for elk and moose is just poppycock!

I started this , If the 30-06 will do it so will the Mag. only game I might choose the Mag over the '06 would be the coastal bears, capt david

The only big game animal I wouldn't want to hunt in N. America with a .300 Win. Mag. is Alaskan brown bear, for which I'd rather take a .416 Remington.

Everything else is easy meat for the .300 Win., and I'd select a good 180 gr. bullet such as the Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Winchester Fail-Safe, Barnes-X, Swift A-Frame, etc., and load it to about 3100 fps. I've shot completely through (broadside shots) elk, moose, bears, plus many, many elk and moose-size African critters with premium 180s out of the .300, and I simply don't see the need for 200 or 220 gr. bullets with this cartridge.

I see Alaskan brown bear hunting much as I do cape buffalo hunting in Africa. It's a specialized pursuit, and I want plenty of rifle, and plenty of bullet -- more bullet than any .300 or even .338 can offer, although a .375 would certainly be acceptable to me for this task.........

AD

This post posed the question about hunting anything in North America with a 300 WM. Then we got into stopping charges.

I respectfully submit that there is a big difference between shooting an unaware, unharmed, Brown Bear vs. when he is bent on your destruction and coming hard at 30 feet.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a calm Brownie with the 300, however, I would expect my guide to be armed with a weapon capable of stopping a charge, i.e. something that makes a big hole.

Surely, the '06 and .300 magnums are capable. Why not ask Phil Sharpe, Alaskan Guide and writer, whom I understand frequents these forums?

Dakor,

From your previous posts I assume you have or are going to book a brown bear hunt. If you have 300 Win. Mag. take it. If you already have or are contemplating buying a bigger caliber for the trip I suggest that is what you take. A bigger gun as long as you are comfortable with it is always better than a smaller one. Notice the operative word is comfortable. If you hate to pull the trigger on the bigger gun by all mean stick with what you have.

Energy (ft/lb) doesn't mean much of anything in the death of an animal. Big bullets and big bullet holes are what cause dramatic loss of blood pressure and quick death.

I love my 300 Mag dearly and have shot coyotes to lions with it but if I have a choice and the game is heavy or dangerous I'll be packing a bigger gun.

Regards,

Mark

Who said anything about stopping charges?

I'm talking about hunting brown bear in the spring, when some of the biggest boars are taken very late in the day in very poor light, and thus the priority is to get the bear on the ground right away, without fuss. I wish I could get get Alaskan guide Jimmy Rosenbruch to comment on the virtues of using a .375 or .416 for this sort of hunting. He doesn't frequent these forms, but I'll put his experience up against just about anybody's.

Nobody (least of all me) wants to deal with a brown bear charge any more than they want to deal with a lion or cape buffalo charge in Africa, but if that sort of problem persents itself, I want plenty of gun -- not a .308-caliber ANYTHING..........

AD

I was talking to my gun smith yesterday and he has hunted Browns in Alaska for 30+ years and has taken some nice ones we were talking about my 375 H&H wich is being built then we started talking about Browns and what to use for a rifle. He said the guy he hunted with alot used a 300 win mag with 220 Noslers and he said it was enough gun even for a charge and he told me a story were they had one bear charge and his friend dropped it with the 300 it took 5 shots. He also said when he shot his last bear and it charged it took him 5 shots also and the only reason the fifth shot kept it down is because he broke its back and he was shooting a 338-416 Rigby shooting 250 gr Nolsers at 3100 fps. So I asked him did he notice much difference with the 338 dia killing any better then the 308 dia he said not really if you hit the heart the bear dies if you want to anchor him with the first shot with anything you better hit the spine and he also stated that he has seen lots of bears taken with the 300 win with no problems the biggest thing is not to let the bear know you are there and try shoot from a hidden location and keep firing until it is down is what he said. When I go next fall I will be using a 375 H&H and my nephew will be using a 300 win so will my B-law I will let you know how it goes. As for a 300 win not big enough for Moose or Elk I have seen lots of them shot with 280,s 7mms, and 30/06 and they all died real quick so I would sure hope a 300 win could kill them just as dead even out to 600 yards if you can put it where it needs to be.

Politicians, if it was legal.



Or do they qualify as varmints?

Chipmunk.

Leighton

NH Hunter and the rest: You guys can cool your jets. You guys are so insecure about your small bore rifles. I was speaking for myself and no one else. I was only refering to the weapons that I choose to use. I have killed half a dozen elk more or less and I have used .7mm Rem mag and .338s to do that work. And between you and me, a 210 gr NP out of a .338 kills elk faster than a 170 gr 7mm, all other things being equal. That was all I said.

It is simply matter of physics (bigger faster bullets causes larger wounds and lets more blood drain out that smaller slower bullets). And I didn't say the .300 mags and the .30-06 couldn't kill large game. In fact I said just the opposite. I know that lots of folks routinely shoot elk with a .270. I love .270s and I really like my .300 Wby. I did not say that you guys were nitwits for using small bore rifles and I did not insult you or your smallbore rifles, or at least I did not mean to do that.

I simply said that I prefer to use a medium or large bore rifle on large game. Go back and read what I wrote. I love using small bore rifles (.270, 7mm, .308 caliber rifles), but I also love using medium bore rifles (.338, .378) and large bore rifles (.416). It is much more interesting than just shooting a .300 mag. I choose not to limit my hunting experiences to small bore rifles.

Squill!!!!!!!!!!!

"excessive nature of the .300 WM case in the lower 48"....?

What utter nonsense! "Excessive"? How so?

And yet you'll take the .35 Whelen for Alaskan brown bear, huh?

Partner, quite honestly, I doubt you'll be huntin' brown bear with anything, ever............

AD

[quote

Partner, quite honestly, I doubt you'll be huntin' brown bear with anything, ever............



AD

---

Gee, that really hurt. Like you would know anything about my personal situation. Feel better now?



I guess that is supposed to mean that you know what your talking about and I dont. But the fact still remains that opinions are like assholes, everybodys got one. And make no mistake, that DOES apply to the ivy league as well.

Basically six elk give or take,with emphasis on less. Isn't enough to base jackshit off of. You could spine six elk with a 243 and come to the conclusion thats its a great elk cartridge. If you wanted to call the very limited experience of killing six elk ,an experience at all.

There isn't anything in N. America that can't be killed easily with a 300 win mag. The .338 has to be one of the most over rated cartridges out there.The fact that it can be cheaply chambered in a standard action is its only real advantage. Most people who shoot it,have themselves convinced that since it's bigger then a 30 cal,its just got to kill elk better,which is total bullshit. The users of .338's also suffer from selective memory. They only talk about the elk they dropped like a shit sandwich. Which when you investigate further,turn out to be neck and spine shots,with a few shoulder shots. Any decent constructed bullet regardless of caliber would have had the same effect.

Wound channel is another term thrown around that means even less when you start looking into it. When you have a set of lungs that are nothing but soup and gel,resulting from a .300,exactly what more wound do you need. Also I've seen more then one elk heart that was in two or more pieces because of some measely 30 cal. bullet. The wound characteristics of the .338 would have to be measured with a caliper to actually tell them apart from a .300 and even then you wouldn't have much differance in the two diameters. On the elk I've shot and seen shot with the .300,you end up with on average a 1inch entrance and two or more inches of exit wound on broadside shots. If that isn't going to leave enough blood trail,the .338 sure as shit won't either. Especially since you'd be hard pressed to tell the differance between wounds of either cartridge,if you didn't know what was being used to begin with.

RMK:

Since you are being unprofessional, off message, and personal, so will I: I said that I had killed six elk (more or less) and not Allen Day. So if you are going to feel threathened about using a small bore rifle and get your panties all knotted up over something I said, then direct your comments to me and not someone else.

I did not realize that people who can use a wide range of rifles calibers for different purposes would threathen someone who can't. I apologize for threatening your riflemanship. I am sure that someday, with practice, you will learn how to use a truely big game rifle.

You act like someone said a small bore rifle, which includes .300 mags, was bad. Well, sometimes it is bad. There are situations where it is irresponsible to use a .300 mag of any type. But it is clear that you do not understand that. Usually, for someone like you, when it really counts, there will be an armed adult with you supervising your actions and will be there to try and cleanup your mess, with a .416 or .458. I actually think most people cannot operate .300 mags properly, but that is another question.

It sounds like your hunting experiences are very limited. Any of the .300 mags, and the .30-06, are excellent rifles. But it sounds like the reason you use a small bore rifle, and create justifications for doing so, is because you have not figured out how to master big game rifles.

Most hunters who have mastered medium and larger bore rifles use them when they think it is appropriate, while those that have not, won't. And people who have mastered the .338 tend to use them more often than not because they work really really well. There is a smaller group of people that go on to gravitate toward the .375 and I am one of those. I use a .378 and I love it. If there was not a need for big rifles, I do not think they would exists: they require practice and they are expensive to own and operate and all the money spent on the rifles ultimately takes money away from hunting. But I doubt that you hunt enough to understand any of the points contained in this comment. But having the proper tool for the job is just the cost of doing business.

If you want to use a weapon that will just get by, then have at it. While I did not cuss or swear once to make my point, I am willing to bet, based on what you said, that your eyes are brown.

Things are getting a little heated everyone take a deep breath have a beer and calm down. Now if we are going to start talking about small bores and if the 30cal is in there then you better put the 338 cal right next to it because there is not much difference between the two and too say smallbore I think you mean medium bore not small. A larger bore to me would be 35cal and up and small bore would be anything less then a 284 cal. Another thing since we are now talking 300 win vs 338 win why dont you take a look at some ballistic of a 338 shooting a 225gr 2900fps and a 300 win shooting a 220 at 2900 fps and see what you find.

Gentlemen ----- Let me tell my story briefly, it will tell my opinion of the .300 Win mag and North American game and the animal at the top of the food chain. ------ I went to Alaska with a .300 Win mag on a Caribou-Brown Bear hunt with 180 grain Nosler Partitions (at 3000 fps) for Caribou and 200 grain Nosler Partitions (at 2900 fps) for the Bear. I was hunting with my brother-in-law, a paid hunter, the guide a native aleut and a personal friend who gave me the hunt because he hunted with me for 6 wks the year before in Kentucky. We were hunting near Cold Bay Alaska on the Peninsula near the end where the islands start. On the third day of the hunt we spotted a big Bear at 1/2 mile, crawled up a Salmon stream for what seemed like hours, I shot the 91/2 ft Bear at 90 yards in the chest as it stood looking at us, it fell and all hell broke loose. Three more Bears in the 71/2 to 8 ft class rared up from where they had been feeding on Salmon in streams adjacent to the one we crawled up. The young guide 22 yrs old, yelled G-- D--- shoot bears, then yelled at me to make sure mine stayed down. Many screams, roars, moans, shouts, cursing, death roars, and 9 more shots from .300, .375, and 30-06 later two more Bears lay dead on the tundra, the fourth leaving with gusto flinging sod into the air and pounding the ground like a running mule. I will never forget the power, speed, quickness, more power and will to live exhibited by those Bears and considered all of us extremely lucky to be standing without a scratch. ----- My Bear never moved another muscle, the other two took 4 and 5 shots between them respectfully before being anchored. We all did pant checks and repairs as required then proceed with the skinning jobs at hand. A cool headed young guide and four good shooters prevailed on this day. ----- The .300 Win mag did it's job, but felt very small indeed in my hands during the melee. My next trip into Bear country saw me packing a .340 Wby using a 250 grain Nosler Partitiion Gold bullet at 2900 fps, a Moose hunt. My last trip last fall saw me packing a .358 STA and a 270 grain North Fork bullet at 2950 fps on a Caribou-Wolfe hunt in Bear country. Conclusion for me ----- I would say to you shoot the rifles from .338 and up extensively enough to become instinctive in their use. If you can't do that then use a .300 Win mag with the heavier premium bullets and become very proficient with it's use and make sure your backup or guide is adequate to the task. My apologies to those who have heard this tale before and it's length. Good shooting.

Your experience, and the conclusions you came too mirror mine. I was just hunting Grizzlies, not the Brown Bear which is much bigger. My first Bear was a small one and all went off with out a hitch. The second was bigger and required 2 shots from a 300 Weatherby, (which in my mind is no different than the 300 Winchester), using 200 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. After that Bear hunt, I sold the 300 Weatherby and bought a 338 Winchester. Heavy bullets, at moderate velocities, providing complete penetration is what I want.

If it wasn't for hunting Grizzly Bears, I'd probably still have a 300 Weatherby, and feel like I had North America covered pretty well.

Well rwj,the 300 isn't a small bore and only a buttfuck like yourself would consider it a small bore. If a 300 isn't enough,a .338 sure as shit isn't enough either. The use of a wide variety of calibers on north american game,is the result of wanting to,not needing to. Especially since anything under .375,is going to give you the same results as a .270 and up.

The comment on 300's not being handled properly by most,is a fuckin' joke. I've lost count of how many assholes like yourself that have to shoot a .338 or larger in order to feel adequate,who can't even sight these big bores in themselves and let someone else bench and sight the rifle in for them.Because the owner flinches so bad,that patterns result instead of groups.

Most of the big bores used in North america outside of polar and brown bear,are used by idiots like yourself that just have to use one,not because its actually needed.

As for limited hunting experience,you're the jerkoff giving advise based off of six elk kills not me.


In your case rwj,with your talk of mastering things,I'd say its safe to say the only thing you've mastered is probably masturbation.

Doc,
I've shot 3 turkeys with a 300WM. 2 thru the adams apple and 1 that was literally breasted out from a hit across the back.

Dakor: For my type of hunting in Alaska, I prefer a .338WM with 230 to 300-grain bullets. I just like the additional SD of the heavy .338-caliber bullets over those of .30-caliber. Both the .300 and .338 kill most bears up here, simply because most hunters use one or the other. I use a .338, and a friend of mine uses a .300. We don't argue about which one is better, but he hasn't been able to duplicate my one-shot moose kills. Maybe I just know moose anatomy a little more than he does? Sometimes he stands by me as I pull the trigger to drop moose, so now he is thinking of buying a .338WM to add to his collection. I only have one rifle, and you can guess the caliber.



By the way, I agree with rwj on heavier and slower bullets. My favorite are heavy-for-caliber.

---------------

Now for those of you who may think the bigger guns are most popular in Alaska, this is from the NRA's January 2001 issue, American Hunter:



"The Alaska Department of Fish & Game hunter safety staff in Anchorage tallied the big game rifles sighted at the Rabbit Creek rifle range for the 1999 hunting season. The top three cartridges were the .30-06 (21%), .300 Win. Magnum (19%), and the .338 Win. Magnum (18%). These were followed by the 7mm Rem. Magnum (9%), .375 H&H Magnum (6%), .270 (6%), .308 (4%), and .300 Wby. Magnum (4%), .45-70 (1%), .280 (1%), and a host of others, including many wildcats. Comparable data are not available for hunters who live in the bush."

Why not just end the argument of "is this caliber good for this game _ _ _ _ " fill in the blanks for the game of choice. Buy a .375 H&H and walk the world with confidence! It shoots accuratly farther than most hunters can really shoot. You could then ethically shoot from mice to elephants.

In reality, the argument can be ended just the way you have said. Those who use the .300WM like it just the way it is, too. For me the best caliber is the .338WM. Also, lets not discount those who have used the .30-06 for years and years without any problems, because for those folks the .30-06 is it. The .375 is a great cartridge that has been around Alaska for quite a few years, and those who use it are very happy with it, but the .338WM is quite a lot more popular as an all around cartridge.

A few folks up here are using wildcats such as the .375 Taylor, which consists of a .338WM case topped with a .375-caliber bullet, and they love it.

Ray: That was a good summary.

Very interesting discussion

All I can say is that I love my .300 win mag with 180 TSX. It definately gives me confidence in the field knowing I can shoot it well compared to some who chuck lead from magnums and hope it connects.

I'd have to say that I believe my combo is quite universal but a hot .338 with 275gr. Swifts or big North Forks or Barnes or something larger in diameter would let me sleep easier at night with Big Bears involved.

squirrels, rabbits and wild turkey

I wouldn't take anything smaller than a .338 on a free roaming bison hunt. Hell, even my .416 is staying home this January...taking the 8 bore front stuffer.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Not a thing. The cartridge is capable no doubt, but it is one I'll not own a second time. I'm niched out above and below, have no need for the .300 Winnie.