Full story at the link

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...less-wolves-was.html

Excerpt: How the Myth of "Harmless" Wolves was Created

Valerius Geist is a Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science at the University of Calgary, Canada.

He believed in the myth of the "Harmless" wolf until he personally experienced evidence to the contrary, four years after he retired. In this heavily documented paper, written in 2010, He explores how the mythology came to be. From wolfeducationinternational.com:


Valerius Geist

November 26th 2010


The effects of thousands of impoverished trappers and wolf bounties in northern Alberta early in the 20the century on predators, and its relation to the myth of the harmless wolf.

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks for posting that information, Dr. Geist is an extremely knowledgeable individual.

And it is amazing how Americans have bought into the myth about wolves.

Geist is best know for his work with mountain sheep. You hunt sheep seriously, you've read Geist.

https://www.amazon.com/Mountai...ldlife/dp/0226285723

Grizz

It was overstated on both sides, one stating all hunky dory and the other end of big game period
In the end, numbers of elk and deer are back up even with big bad wolf around

I for one don't mind them around, it is what it is and it makes western landscape complete

quote:

numbers of elk and deer are back up

I disagree with that statement. The animals are WIPED OUT in Yellowstone. States are over run with Wolves and they are BEGGING hunters to come and shoot them. They offer TWO Permits and have LOWERED the cost of them!!!

I saw one deer last year rifle season in Wi.In the 1990`s my Son,myself and friend would take 6 bucks a year with gun and bow off of my land.The DNR transplanted wolf to Marinette County in the late ninety`s.Within 6 years our county went from the second largest deer kill during rifle and bow season to around 30th in kill.It was first or second in kill for over 30 years with no Wolves.We have less hunters then ever because they do not see or shoot deer.We used to average 40 to 50 deer per square mile back then.Now they do not do counts anymore.I wonder why???I bet my grandfather is rolling in his grave now.He was happy when they got rid of them the first time.OB

quote:

In the end, numbers of elk and deer are back up even with big bad wolf around

I question that. Too many folks are reporting differently.

Game Departments and especially USF&WS really do not like admitting to their mistakes.

Wolves in the West should be eliminated. They should not
have been introduced, period!!

"Game Departments and especially USF&WS really do not like admitting to their mistakes."

There are those who will argue that it was no mistake. Wolves were introduced to help destroy the gun / hunting culture as well as the ranching industry and all is going along as planned. The long term goal is said to be to force [ordinary] people out of rural areas and into densely packed cities. Once that is achieved the bulk of the country can be restored to the natural utopia it was before the evil white man arrived.

"Wolves in the West should be eliminated. They should not have been introduced, period!!"

Thank you for using the correct word - "introduced" instead of "reintroduced." The Canadian wolves that were brought in are an exotic, invasive species and should be treated as such.

You guys are crying wolf
Get over it, wolfs are here to stay
Big game numbers go up and down all the time
Give you prime example: Idaho Clearwater 1995 through 1997 - two bad winters wiped out 75 % of elk population ( before wolf were an issue ) as IFGD report stated at that time
Montana Bitterroot valley - 2003 numbers started going down then they recovered
Part of itwas, MT legislature issue rule to keep numbers at or below certain levels, so many over the counter cow were issued for years and all of a sudden numbers dropped. Wolf? Maybe part of it but unsustainable harvest was the biggest issue.

So in nutshell, numbers go up and down according to Summer, Winter, predation issues that are out of our hands
Quit whining and sniveling and accept nature at its best

Milan, I hunted black bear out of Elk City Idaho in 2010, and all the locals I talked with openly stated that both Elk and Moose numbers had declined because of the wolves.

This wasn't 1997 or 1998, this was 2010 and everybody was complaining about what the wolves had done to the local wildlife.

And Randall, numbers are up
Been hunting across the border ( bear) and saw lots of signs in musing plenty of moose signs
Talked to MT and Idaho biologists and all saying numbers are well up.
I'm not trying to say, wolf were not harmless, it is after all top predator and for reason
Thing is, I like the fact we have full array of game including all natural predators
It makes for interesting hunts
I don't count hunting as harvesting or a must get something, but unfortunately lots of weekend Yahoo!'s do and if something goes pear shape, they blame it on wolves ( or Griz or blacks ), hell I even heard about small predators as well
Anyway, my whole point is, we always seem to wannaalter nature at its best if it doesn't suit us according to our " I want it all and I want it now " attitude
Us hunters oughtta know better

They are just big oversized puppies and are misunderstood.

To help people feel warm and fuzzy I suggest a good number be trapped and released in packs in all of the major cities.

Can't be a problem, the folks said so in all the pre-release documents.

Milan this is one where we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Just to clarify my stance, I am not for the extermination of all wolves, but just as with elk/moose/deer, wolf numbers have to be managed.

Mistakes were made by the folks involved in the whole program to increase wolf numbers. By most or all accounts, there were native wolves in the region, but their numbers were not large enough to have a detrimental impact on game numbers.

USF&WS bowed to pressure from various groups and implemented programs to increase wolf numbers, but they made some bad choices in conducting those programs.

Bringing in wolves from Canada being one, bringing in too many wolves was another.

During mine and Lora's trip to Idaho in 2010, we were in hunting camp for 6 days, but in total we were in the area for 10 days and while I did get a bear, overall we heard one elk bugle, but never saw any elk, and in total saw maybe a dozen, but less than 2 dozen White tail deer during that time and no muley's.

Between my guide and the conversations with or overheard from other local citizens game numbers had declined, predation on livestock had increased.

There has to be predators for a system to be healthy, but, those predators have to be managed, the game species have to be managed, the system has to be managed and that is where USF&WS dropped the ball.

Yes, we agree on the fact that wolves need to be managed, absolutely no doubt about that
My main point is: there is room for all of us

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
You guys are crying wolf
Get over it, wolfs are here to stay
Big game numbers go up and down all the time
Give you prime example: Idaho Clearwater 1995 through 1997 - two bad winters wiped out 75 % of elk population ( before wolf were an issue ) as IFGD report stated at that time
Montana Bitterroot valley - 2003 numbers started going down then they recovered
Part of itwas, MT legislature issue rule to keep numbers at or below certain levels, so many over the counter cow were issued for years and all of a sudden numbers dropped. Wolf? Maybe part of it but unsustainable harvest was the biggest issue.

So in nutshell, numbers go up and down according to Summer, Winter, predation issues that are out of our hands
Quit whining and sniveling and accept nature at its best

No problem with that, as long as they are hunted and population numbers are managed, not an easy job. Very adaptable and efficient killers, in spite of what some would have you believe.



Grizz

Agree on that Griz

quote:

My main point is: there is room for all of us

I totally agree Milan, but I think many folks have developed the attitude over managing such programs should be left in the hands of those people most directly affected, that have actual knowledge of the existing areas that will be impacted, or as the old Pace Picante adds used to say, "Not By People In New York City"!

I do not want to see wolves exterminated, but how the programs are set-up, monitored and adjusted when and where necessary, must have input from the people living in the area.

I consider myself richer for living in area with other apex predators
Maybe tougher hunting but also trying my skills against other predators
And I do understand others issues with big predators
Just among us hunters, we have many differences, than you put into a mix ranchers and non hunters and it's a mess

Predation, wolves, grizzly, black bear and wolverine take 90% of the recruitment of our game. Here in the Yukon the remaining 10% is divided between First Nation, resident and non resident hunters less a large safety factor. In the lower 48 you have enjoyed a far greater percentage of the recruitment for years with the elimination of those predators. You must decide whether you want to share with the predators. It is not a matter of "Natural" or not it is simple math. Apparently someone decided to share.
Jim

quote:

"Game Departments and especially USF&WS really do not like admitting to their mistakes."

I Bow hunted The Big Hole in Montana a couple years ago. The Wolves have pushed all the Elk from the Timber down into the Valley onto private land. After hunting for a week I heard One bugle. The Elk are silent because of the Wolves. While I was there the Wolves killed 80 some sheep. I talked with the Fuel truck driver that delivered fuel to all the ranches. He told me on the average he use to see 5 Moose a week. Now he is LUCKY if he sees one. They have wiped out the Moose.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigasanelk:
"Game Departments and especially USF&WS really do not like admitting to their mistakes."

There are those who will argue that it was no mistake. Wolves were introduced to help destroy the gun / hunting culture as well as the ranching industry and all is going along as planned. The long term goal is said to be to force [ordinary] people out of rural areas and into densely packed cities. Once that is achieved the bulk of the country can be restored to the natural utopia it was before the evil white man arrived.

"Wolves in the West should be eliminated. They should not have been introduced, period!!"

Thank you for using the correct word - "introduced" instead of "reintroduced." The Canadian wolves that were brought in are an exotic, invasive species and should be treated as such.

Exactly!!

Mountain Lions: Should be managed
Black Bear: Should be managed
Grizzly: Should be managed

Canadian Wolves: Should be eliminated in the West.
Yes, every last one of them.

They were introduced with lies and deceit.

And no, there is not room for them!

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
Mountain Lions: Should be managed
Black Bear: Should be managed
Grizzly: Should be managed

Canadian Wolves: Should be eliminated in the West.
Yes, every last one of them.

They were introduced with lies and deceit.

And no, there is not room for them!

I always get a kick out of the we need predators to mange game populations.

What BS humans are a more efficient predator then any four legged mammal out there.

If more game needs to be killed off, loosen hunting regulations and humans well do the job.

I never base much on emotion, but the wolves in Idaho have hurt the elk populations considerably, they put more wolves in Idaho than was agreed to IMO..LIberals as a rule cannot be trusted in that to them the end justifies the means that's I know for a fact..

In fact recent reports showed that wolves are hurting the Lion populations in Northern Idaho, and they have proven that, TV did a whole show on that, and they considered it unusual...Why? did not the biologist think a pack of 30 wolves couldn't kill a lone lion in the sage brush!! duh!!

Nobody did the math including on this thread, a cow elk has two calves,normally only one survives, wolves cut that rate of mortality considerably with the help of Lions and bears.

By the same token as I recall wolves have a litter of 6 to as many as 8 or 10, with a 90% or better survival rate...Do the math for goodness sake!! Soon the state will be more wolves than elk or deer and all the experts will be whistleing Who,d a thought it, as usual too little too late..Keep in mind there are idiots and educated idiots, you can't fix stupid.

Some folks simply do not have an actual knowledge of how nature works, especially the role that carnivores play in the overall scheme.

Not only can a pack of wolves kill a grown lion or bear, but think of how many young of both species they kill.

To many modern folks are operating under the assumption that predators only prey upon the sick/injured/old members of a population.

They simply do not understand that predators are Equal Opportunity killers.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
Mountain Lions: Should be managed
Black Bear: Should be managed
Grizzly: Should be managed

Canadian Wolves: Should be eliminated in the West.
Yes, every last one of them.

They were introduced with lies and deceit.

And no, there is not room for them!

quote:

To many modern folks are operating under the assumption that predators only prey upon the sick/injured/old members of a population

A lie promoted by the envrio wackos and the anti hunting types.

I lived all of my young life in a Lion rich area of the Big Bend Nat Park in Texas that borders Mexico..I have found more Lion kills than most folks, trapped as many Lions as anyone..

Lions don't kill or eat sick aninmals, they are a better judge of good meat that the USDA!!

In fact during the rut when the big trophy bucks stink to high Heaven, Lions normally kill only those bucks during the rutting season because they are easier to find..A Mt. Lion is a killing machine and can kill a full grown trophy bull elk, or a Hereford or Brahma bull fo that matter if they dicide to..I had a 2 year old colt killed my a Lion in my corrals and the lion got it by the neck and over its back and climbed over the rail fence and dragged the colt a mile into the pasture before he fed on it..That is power plus. Wolves weigh over 200 pounds in some cases and a pack can kill anything it decides to kill, no borders on what it might kill under the right circumstances..

Those in their Ivory Towers in NY and CAlif. live in a fairy tale world, and cry and wet their pants if something goes wrong if its an election or a bear eating a kid because it lost its fear of man..