I loaded up a few .338 180 grain Nosler ballistic tips in my .338 Rem Ultra mag. I'm getting just over 3500 fps and 1.6" 3 shot groups at 200 yards. I would like to use this on mule deer and black bear. Will they hold together enough for bear at close range? Thanks for your input.

Maybe that's too much speed for a 180-grain BT on bears at the usual "bear hunting ranges"? Why not using a 225-grain A-Frame, or maybe a lightweight Barnes-X?

I have heard of 200-grain BT bullets being used for deer with great success, but not the 180 grainers.

Jim,
I have used them in my .338 win mag (3,160 fps) to take three wild boar at 150, 170 and 200 yds.
In the three cases I got good expansion and full penetration (broadside).
Not much experience, just my 2 cents.
Regards,
montero

3500 fps with a 180 gr .338 dia bullet - wow! - that would make Godzilla tremble. I'd be affraid that a little ol dear or black bear would explode like a gopher hit with a 22-250. Seriously, I'm working on loads in a std 338 wm with that bullet - but if i get 3200 fps I'll cheer - all BT's over 30 cal have thicker jackets - go hunting - just don't get too close.

Jim, I have used that bullet in my 338 RUM and I can attain 3500 fps also. It is very accurate, even at those speeds, but I'm not too sure that I would use it on deer or black bear. I think it may be too fragile and may not stay together. Even if it did, it would probably ruin a lot of meat. You may want to consider the 200 BT or my favorite, the 210 partition. Good luck.

I've shot two deer with this bullet (180 NBT) running at the same speed (3500) from my Lapua. Both were shot at close range (under 100 yards), complete penetration. Would I use it on a mule deer, yes, on black bear no.

Granted this is just my opinion attained from only two deer.

Jim

338Laupua, you're the first person that I've heard from that was using the 180 BT on deer at those speeds. Could you provide more detailed info regarding the results from your two deer? I'm very interested, thanks.

I don't what you want to know, the first deer was an 8 point, broadside, slightly quartering away shot, I hit the deer between the first and second rib and it exited the shoulder, both lungs were hit. The deer dropped where it stood, literally. Lost about 1.5 pounds of meat on the far shoulder, since I don't eat the ribs I don't count any lost meat on the near side.

The second deer was a spike, shot on a slightly quartering toward shot. Deer was shot tight behind the right shoulder and exited at the second rib. Both lungs hit, the deer took two steps and fell. Lost about .5 pounds of meat due to bloodshot shock on the near side. Again, bullet exited the ribs on the far side, so I don't count any meat loss since I don't eat the ribs.

Both deer were shot under 100 yards. I don't know what else you want to know. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions.

Jim

[ 09-25-2002, 19:15: Message edited by: 338Lapua ]

Jim - thanks, that's the info I was interested in. I've given some thought on using the 180 BT for deer, but I have been hesitant to do so. I'll probably stay with the 210 partitions this year, as I will be hunting elk at the same time. Thanks for sharing your experience, much appreciated.

I load a .338/.378 wby. for a friend and he insists on using the 180 gr. BT because he wants it to be just like a 55gr. 6mm on a coyote, explosive and drop where it's hit. I don't approve of the choice, but he is a horn hunter (read: doesn't eat the meat, we get the burger and roasts, what's left anyway). His goal was to have a rifle that dropped them every time where they stood or where they were running at the time. I tried to talk him out of this bullet choice for hours, his dad uses the gun when he goes to Alaska, but I refused for his own safety to load anything but a Partition in it, God forbid he try to stop a charging grizzly with a 180gr! The 180 gr. on deer the past three years has been devastating, and these are big SD whitetail bucks, if it's under 140 B&C, they don't pull the trigger. They penetrate to the far side at the very least, one was gut shot and it was pea soup inside. I don't hunt deer with these guys cause I don't like how they hunt, they go for the buck, regardless of where it's at and sometimes when it's at ,the goal behind this Howitzer he bought was to not have to track the deer if they were on land and trespassing. They have questionable deer hunting ethics at best, they are some of my best friends and I hunt birds and fish with them, but I won't hunt deer like they do, I refuse to. But I have seen first hand accounts of the 180 gr. pill on deer. It will do them in, if they blow up, they'll knock the deer down and make it think hard about getting up again. They haven't had any blow up, and one shot was a direct shoulder bone hit, it penetrated to the farside, the base was about all that was left and we found that skinning. If I were you, I wouldn't use it, butmaybe you think like my friends do, I just don't know. Can't tell you about bears, never shot one.
Willie

Willie,

That is one of the most disheartening stories I have read on this website. How many ways can one count as examples of negative sportsmanship in the behavior described? Too many for me to count to the end of the tale. I don't revel with the guys in the red mist varmint crowd and this story smacks of that. The game laws in my state speak to many of the behaviors mentioned, trespass for one. Trespass and disrespect for the property of others has caused us great loss of access to large tracts of both private and public lands. The other sophomoric behaviors are even worse. Blowing an animal into a jellied mass is a new example of wanton wastage of a game animal, another unsportsmanlike behavior, as well defined as illegal among sportsman in WA State.
Why would one want to do that? What is the point?
Personally, I prefer the standard cartridges and velocities rather than the hyper velocity magnums. Partly, this is because I prefer to hunt animals under settings where I stalk and gain close acces before firing, therefore having no particular use or need of the extra velocity. For those who hunt different and open conditions, and have the equipment and skill to bag their game with reliable hits on target, more power to them, their interests and their skills. This is to say, my revolt at the attributes of the described hunters is not about caliber, velocity, nor distance. It is about unsportsmanlike behavior.
I'm glad you drew the line about your involvement with their program. I'd encourage you to let them load their own rounds and make your statement to them even stronger.

Marv

Marv, I completely agree with your point of view, the problem is that I am caught between a rock and a hard place. We do a lot of bird hunting on their land, and decline requests to take us deer hunting with them. We have access to enough land to fill our tags without doing it with them. I have never witnessed their antics they call deer hunting, but I have seen the results, and maybe I put a bright light on their worst points. For the most part, these guys do their homework scouting and spend all day in the stands on opening day, but the problem occurs when they see a buck they just HAVE to have. Then all of their ethics go out the window. I have gone round and round with them, but they are stubborn Germans just like me and neither of us will give ground. They haven't been caught by the authorities yet, but I think when they do, and it is inevitable, maybe their habits will change, I hope so anyway.
Willie

Marv, I forgot to mention that I also am a firm believer in getting close enough to kill them with standard cartridges. My father and I use .30-06's and my brother-in-law uses my backup, a .308. I have never encountered a shot that I HAVE to take that I feel uncomfortable with, and there are no shots that one truly HAS to take unless on a wounded animal. I practice on milk jugs out to 400yds. and can hit them very consistently with either of my rifles. I know that the .338/.378 gets there faster and hits harder, but I know they can't keep up with me in the long range department because they don't practice enough. They have fallen victim to magnumitis, and a piece of good news that may be light at the end of the tunnel, a received an email from one of the brothers yesterday that has convinced himself that a Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45-70 is the way to go to knock deer flat on their asses. He figures most of their shooting is under 150yds. anyway, so why do you need extra velocity. His reasoning astounds me, maybe my bitching has finally sunk into one of them, and I think that after they watch a deer hit with a .45 bullet at moderate velocities crumple like a feed sack, they may turn their opinions around. Oh, he wants me to load for that 45-70, and I will gladly load for him!
Willie

I loaded the 180gr NBTs in my 338RUM for this season and have so far only taken antelope with them. My shot was about 100yds, on the run, quartering slightly away, entered behind the near shoulder creating about a 1" hole, and exited high through the offside shoulder with about a 2" hole...didn't knock it down though, had time to cycle another round, regain my sight picture and was about to pull the trigger again (started thinking that I may have missed) but saw oodles of blood spilling out of his side as he ran his last 2 or 3 steps. Nice hole, clean through, no devastated or bloodshot meat. Quite impressed. I plan to use them and 210gr partitions for deer this season, and I'll keep you guys posted.

I hunted years ago for ducks with some guys that would put down their bird dogs along the draws and margins of wheat fields in the Paloose Country of E. WA. They carried their deer rifles on slings as they hunted roosters with shotguns. When a whitetail was kicked out of the draw or the brushy eyebrows of the rolling wheat field margins, they'd unsling the rifle and blaze away at the running deer across the open fields. They preferred a pump or semi-automatic rifle and would acknowledge that they might need 1/2, or even a box of cartridges to kill a deer. How many did they almost kill that crossed over the ridge and disappeared, never to be found until the ravens got them? As you might guess, I no longer spend time afield with these guys. Funny thing is that they were DU enthusiasts! Make sense?

Marv

Marv, it makes no sense at all to me, neither does my friends brainless urge to do anything to get the big buck. The thing that really ticks me off with these guys though is that they don't even really care about shooting the buck after the week or so that they drive around town with it in the back of their pickup if we don't take the meat off of their hands. They can remember every hunt of every rack you pick up in their garage or is mounted in their house, but it never seems to be enough to satiate them. Me, I'm happy if I make a good clean kill on a doe that feeds me and my wife for a few months. I will pass up on small bucks, preferring to hunt them in future years, but if the opportunity presents itself for a long, challenging shot and I have a rest, I like the challenge of a 250yd plus shot. I'm confident in making them with my .30-06 and all but one of these long-rangers have been one-shot kill. The one exception, my longest witnessed shot on a deer, I put the first shot through the liver, to me it looked like I had gut-shot it, so I shot again and destroyed the heart. It wheeled around once and crashed, 426 yds., with a range finder, form where I sat. Would I have taken this shot without a corner post for rest and the opportunity to range find, I think not! But it's fun to challenge myself with the shots that I practice for. The guy I was hunting with at the time didn't believe me when I said I was going to shoot that deer, he was armed with a .300 wby. and the buck was too small for him, and he said "That .30-06 won't even get to that deer within two seconds!" Needless to say, he gained a measure of respect for that slow .30-06 with a 165 gr. Nosler BT that day.
Just my two cents, my friends don't make sense to me sometimes, but they are still my friends, the ability to look past someone's faults and agree to disagree is what makes someone a true friend, even if it pisses you off once in a while.

I've been dinking around with a custom 338-06AI all summer. I've settled on 180 NBTs. Granted the velocities are a bit less than your outfit. But near as I can tell, this bullet should put a serious smash on any thing at any speed. I've been an unshakable BT fan for years, particularly with the smaller callibers for vermin and deer (vermin with antlers in some places ) So maybe it's no particular surprise that I gravitated to the lighter bullet for this cartridge. Even so, I'm going to give it a whirl on elk next week with perfect confidence.

Anyway, it's disheartening to see where this thread went. I don't get it either. No, not the part about a guy wanting a rifle/bullet combo that will put an animal down ASAP. I love that. I don't get what is so consuming about deer that a fellow would flagrantly disregard so many things. Not the least of which are ethics, responsibility, respect, and good taste. I've killed deer, many deer, several incredible bucks, and many standard-issue does. For me, the real trophies aren't necessairly the big ones. The real trophies are the ones with the best stories, the biggest adventures, and the ones that streatched my abilities and tenacity.

Waldog,
I've got a .338-06 too, a homemade Mauser that I use when I go elk or moose hunting.

I've got some 180BTs loaded for deer but never got a chance to use 'em. I get about 3000 FPS with a stiff load of 4350. Ought to take any whitetail or mule deer at a resonable ranges.