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Reloader What part of "North" Louisiana are you from? I'm from Pineville originally. Been up here in NW Arkansas 18yrs now. I've got some 180Gr NBT's that shoot just a little over MOA in my gun with IMR-4350. I think they will do even better with IMR-4831. The 180Gr Sierra GK's shoot sub MOA. I just picked up some 165Gr Nosler Partitions and some 180Grn Sierra ProHunters (flat base). Will try these two and the 180Gr NBT's with the IMR-4831 as seems like my gun likes that powder the best so far. For this season, will probably pick what ever shoots the most accurate. What weight NBT's are you shooting? firstshot | ||
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Quote: You answered your own question. There is NOTHING (in a reasonable, shoulder-fired weapon), that will "bang/flop" them on demand. A 223 will strike them like lightning one time, and on the next shot, a 375 H&H won't make them flinch. Sorry, you're looking for the impossible here... | |||
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Quote:Hey firstshot, That experience and attitude will help you as much as anything. Quote: Nothing at all wrong with that excellent Sierra Bullet. And it sounds like you have a Load developed for it that your rifle likes right well. Though I agree with the folks that say Head and Spine Shots will absolutely drop them in their tracks, those shots are not my first choice. I've found the good old Shoulder-to-Shoulder shot (like pd shooter mentioned) makes them very easy to locate. Once the front legs are out of action, and the stuff between them is damaged, the Deer just can't go far at all. Go low and both legs are broken as well as the heart. A bit higher and the shoulder blades loose the ability to move and the front of the lungs are damaged. And a bit higher reaches the spine as it goes into the neck. Only real problem is they don't all want to stand in that fine Profile position. So, I do try to get at least one Shoulder on the way In or one the way Out. And I do prefer Exits myself. Our understory is extremely dense in the woods/swamps which makes tracking difficult. Crops can hide the Deer as well if they happen to fall "between" the rows. No fun stomping around trying to locate one by "Brail". --- Just getting ready to ask you how far is the longest shot you would consider, but that really doesn't matter with your 180gr GameKing in the 30-06. It will have enough mass to Exit up close under Full Expansion and also enough mass to Exit at distance with a bit less expansion. Good Bullet choice for Deer. Best of luck to you! | |||
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gonna have to throw the bullshit flag on "have shot several deer with the lower jaw shot off". I've hunted for over fifty years and have NEVER SEEN a deer with its lower jaw shot off. Nor have I ever even heard of it until your post. I am sure with a botched head shot the lower jaw could be shot away. But the trauma would be such that the deer wouldn't be going too far or would shortly starve. Do you have any photos? With regards to the original post. I agree a 180gr bullet in front of a healthy dose of 4350 is as close as you're going to get. If your expected shots are say 250 yards or less you might want to consider the 180gr round nosed bullet. | |||
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I do not advocate spine, neck and head shots...window for miscalculation is much higher than the boiler room. I have seen first hand botched neck or head shots and it isn't pretty. A solid bullet like a NP, TBBC, new bonded, etc with a strike to the pins is the highest % shot of humanely taking the animal and dropping them where they stand. If you render the entire front end useless it will lead to a nose dive like now. Of course if you pick a bullet that won't make it through both pins a single wheel shot deer can make up ground in a hurry. I am quite suprised about your results with the NBT, but every guns is different I guess. The NBT coupled with a placement of the shot in the lungs has led to no long or tough tracks in my hunting career. A slight quarter away with the opposite shoulder as backing has resulted in only a few steps mustered after trashing through his vitals - by far my favorite shot on a mature whitetail buck. Try dropping down grain size in either sierra's, NP's or bonded bullet (AB or IB). I know a aweful lot of 06 toting deer hunters who run 150-165 grs, on the flip side I know very few who use 180 when deer are on the tap. Good luck | |||
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You're going to get as many opinions as there are a-holes with that kind of question. There isn't anything wrong with what you are shooting and I suggest lots of practice. I think most hunters use too much bullet in the 30 calibers, a 150 or 165 plenty for deer sized critters. All these super-duper bullets everybody gets a woody over nowadays are for taking your money instead of game. I've killed LOTS of deer and never used the first space age technology bullet. I have never lost a deer or had to track one. If you want to pole axe a deer, shoot a 150 grain ROUNDNOSE bullet. The old remington corelokt is about the best thing to come down the pike or a Hornady of plain vanilla flavor. This probably isn't what you expected to hear and the armchair experts will boo this old dog off the stage but trust me on this one. As for the detractors who will tell you a RN bullet is BS for LONG range work, well after shooting over 200 deer, I can count on one hand the shots taken at over 200 yards. Most were within 50 yards and I don't think my experiences are much different than the majority. That little 6.5x55 is a dandy, I've used it several times and they penetrate unbelievably.....too well, in my way of thinking. The old Hornady 140 grain RN is a sure killer in that number. And in closing, yes I have shot ballistic tip bullets..ho f**king hum. They are great for butchering the game on the hoof...take out fist sized hunks from the shoulders. Which by the way, is the place to bust a deer, high in the shoulder. You break his joints and take out his lungs..he'll drown in short order IF he is able to move at all. | |||
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strike I've only taken one neck shot with the 6.5x55 and sure nuf, he only went about 10 Yds. Never tried the high shoulder/spinal shot. I've still got my 6.5x55, love it, and plan to start reloading for it soon. Just wanted something a little heavier. I've got a chance to do some elk hunting for the first time next year with a friend that is moving back out west. We've also got some black bear on our lease here, but the 6.5 would be adequate for them. I guess more than anything, I just wanted a new gun....LOL Cold Bore "Sorry, you're looking for the impossible here..." You're probably right, but I want to do everything I can for my part to help insure, as much as is possible, that I don't loose any game because I can't follow a light blood trail. I do pratice a lot and not just from the bench so that I can make the most of shot placement. Maybe there are other things I can do like learning to make that high shoulder/spine shot strike mentioned. I've Been shooting my customized 6.5x55 for about 6 years now and have taken quite a few deer with it. Plan to keep it for my kids when they get a little bigger. I'm not really much of a gun switcher. Can't really afford to be...LOL I'm more of the "one gun" hunter that likes to learn to shoot that gun extremely well. Quote: Glad to hear it! I plan to see how well the Sierra "flat based" Pro Hunters shoot in my gun as well as the Nosler Partitions. Seems like a lot of folks say the GK's don't hold together as well as the flat bases and the Partitions provide exceptional penetration. Holes on both sides come in handy when you really need a heavy blood trail. Thanks for your input! firstshot | |||
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Quote: Jumptrap.....LOL...that's exactly what I was looking for...lots of opinions. And thanks to all of you for your responses....great info and a lot to consider. Figured that if I got enough responses there would be some common theams showing up. And sure nuf...seems like "shot placement", specifically a "High Shoulder Shot" taken with a strong enough AND/OR heavy enough bullet has been mentioned a lot more often than anything else. Several of you mentioned that I really wasn't that far off with the 180 Game Kings. I was glad to hear that since my gun is shooting them so well. DOC I assume by "Sierra spitzer", you're referring to the flat based Pro Hunters spitzer. I definitely intend to try those as I've heard that they are just as accurate (if not more so) as the GK's and that they also hold together better. CDH You're absolutely right...everything is relative. The Nosler BT's did shoot well in my gun, just not as good as the GK's. Using IMR-4831, my last batch GK's are averaged .635"CTC @ 100. The BT's on top of IMR-4350 averaged 1.39"CTC. The GK's opened up to 1.3" using IMR-4350. Like the GK's, I suspect the BT's would also shoot better with the IMR-4831. Any way you look at it though, either of these are providing plenty enough accuracy for hunting. Hot Core, Jumptrap My maximum shot where I'm hunting would be about 250 Yds at the most, and that would be on one of the clear-cuts or power lines. And, like most everyone else, the majority of my shots would be a lot shorter than that. Now about this "High Shoulder Shot".......... Check out this"Whitetail Anatomy" page I found on the net. If I'm reading you guys right, the ideal shot placement would be to the low center of the shoulder blade, basically at spinal cord level and just to the left of where the neck attaches to the spine. Is that correct? By the way, I just happened to be watching one of the hunting shows on TV when I first got home this PM, and saw a big buck taken with exactly this shot....High Shoulder. He was standing in the rain, so with slow motion, you could see exactly where the bullet hit.....he went down like a sack of taters. Thanks again for all your responses!!! firstshot | |||
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I'm going to echo allen day's comments with the 150 Hornady and a healthy dose of H4350. As for the lower jaw thing, I have finished two deer crippled that way, (not mine), and have contempt for anyone who shoots for the head. Nuff said about that. I haven't lost any deer shot through the front shoulders, they "Bang/Flop" with the best of them. If your rifle really likes the 180s better than the lighter bullets, you might consider the underrated Remington BronzePoint component bullet, it is like a lightning bolt. I haven't ever had a deer move out of it's tracks using those bullets, I wish I could still get them for my .270, they are still available in .308 diameter, lucky for you! | |||
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Quote: That's a great diagram you found. I think the shot you're describing doesn't have very good external reference points for a rather small target, i.e., the spine. And you'll probably lose a bit of the best meat on the deer in the top end of the backstrap. The "top of the heart" shot I use is referenced from the elbow and shoulder joints, which are usually easily visible. On a broadside shot, come straight up the front leg to halfway up between the elbow and shoulder joints, and that'll put you dead on the top of the heart. You'll also hit both lungs on either side of the heart. | |||
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Well here's my opinion. When I read the first sentence of you post, my answer was 180 Sierra spitzer pushed by IMR 4350 or IMR 4064. You already had the bang/flop load! As already posted, if you want to drop them every time, put the bullet on high shoulder/neck transition region. I was trained to shoot there before shooting behind the shoulder...so long as you had a steady rest, were sure of your equipment, etc. There is also something to be said for higher velocity, lighter bullets too. Deer react to shock about 50% of the time in my experience. This guy went down (see trophy section, Missouri kill with gun I posted) where he stood at 130 yards from a 150 Speer spitzer in my 270. The bullet did not exit, ie. dumped all energy avaiable. I personally have found this to be another way of putting them down quick. Obviously others prefer exit wounds, but you don't need one if they go down in their tracks right? | |||
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The only time I've had animals "flop" is with very, very fast projectiles, impact velocities in the 3200fps range up. In order to get consistency in bullet performance, that also takes you into the premium bullet category. I would imagine a 130 gr. x bullet would prolly do it, though I agree "not always". Given that you shoot an auto, very light for caliber bullets may not work/fail to cycle/damage gun. So, you already have the next best thing, a heavy, fast opening bullet that transfers lots of impact energy very quickly. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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"DOC I assume by "Sierra spitzer", you're referring to the flat based Pro Hunters spitzer. I definitely intend to try those as I've heard that they are just as accurate (if not more so) as the GK's and that they also hold together better." Yes, prohunter bullet. You don't need a boat tail out to 250 yards. The FB bullet, in my experience, is more accurate as there is more wt at the rear. In terms of shot placement, take a look at your diagram again. If you have a shot, say 100 or so yards or less, I aim for the spinal cord (blue line) right where it meets the paddle bone (scapula). I DO advocate neck/spine shots when you have a good rest and are sure of shot placement. I do this because in the northern mountains of Alabama, there are plenty of cliffs/bluffs. Some of my biggest bucks are taken near those areas and I don't have the strength to lug them back up those places if I hit them in the lung and they don't go right down. I have also aimed for a high shoulder shot straight above the heart, but some may not like reducing their target size to that area. If you shoot at the kill zone where the neck meets the thoracic region, you should watch them move in only one direction: STRAIGHT DOWN. A lung shot is always a killer but the fact is, I've lost some good meat deer in the mountains when they decided to leap off some bluffs in my old hunting grounds...these are isolated incedents though. I'm going out west to 4 states this year for elk, mulie, and antelope. My confidence level is good if I have a steady rest. If have a deer within a couple hundred yards, I'm shooting to drop him.  | |||
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You often hear that a neck shot that fails to hit bone will result in a lost animal, can anyone certify this? Some people claim that a spine/neck shot will drop the animal for long enough for a second shot, but the hunter is usually unprepared. A while back there was an article on the remington website claiming that 40+ deer dropped at the shot when hit 4 inches below the backline. This seems to be a very risky aimpoint. What do you guys prefer -high neck (just below ears) -junction of neck and body -shoulder/spine, close to backline. (yes, we all know a heart/lung shot has the most margin for error, but that is not at issue here) | |||
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Whelan, Pdog, I guess I stand corrected. I'll pick up my flag and put it in my pocket along with that crow sandwich I'm gonna eat for lunch.  | |||
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I've personally shot about 30-50 whitetails in the neck. Some hit spine bones, some did not. I never saw one run, step, walk, or trot anywhere, and none needed a second shot. All were with Nosler B-tips from various calibers, but mostly 270 or 7 Rem Mag. ALL shots were under 125 yards. Plus, I had plenty of time for the shot. However, I am not saying that you do NOT need a follow up.  No no no I think that the neck makes the best Pot roast stew on the deer. My top three cuts are backstrap/loin, neck and liver.capt david | |||
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Quote: Hey beemanbeme, Nice response for those who have seen them first hand. I'm sure I've seen one still walking, but it was put down. And I've seen "maybe" 3-5 come in at the Processors where I like to hang out in the evenings. All the ones I saw were Jaw Shot on the same day they were eventually killed. The Head Shot is not something we encourage where I hunt. We have a lot of young hunters and spend a considerable amount of time showing them where to shoot Deer on a Decoy. And the Peer Pressure is on the older folks to set a good example for them. So, it is very rare that a Head Shot is taken where I hunt. --- For those of you who believe in Head Shots, does a Doe or a Buck typically keep their Head "up" the longest at one time, or do think they are the same? | |||
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The other big problem with head shots is that is the fastest and most often moved part of the deer. Nothing like a small MOVING target to make life really tricky. Now we're getting into hunting ethics...tricky subject to say the least! | |||
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Quote:Yes it can happen. Generally due to the Bullet Impacting "above" the Spine. When the shot is below the Spine in the Neck, quite often either the windpipe or an Artery is damaged and that will result in a dead Deer. But, it might be recovered or it might not, just depends on how far it goes before stopping and what it is going through. Quote:The very first Deer I ever shot in S.C. was hit just above the Withers without hitting the Spine. The Deer dropped immediately. It had been pushed to me by another Hunter sneaking out of the woods as darkness was approaching. We stood over the Deer and talked a couple of minutes. Since we were close to a farm road I told him I'd take the rifles and go get my truck if he would stay by the Deer for me. Good plan. By the time I was coming back, it was indeed dark and I noticed the flashlight I left with him shooting rays all around the place. Well, come to find out, the shot I made had just "stunned" that Deer and he was trying to keep it from going into a 10' deep cannal by flailing away at it's head with the flashlight. Had to jump out and cut the Deer's throat and hold it still for a minute or two so it would die. That same guy has "Spine Stun Shot" 2 since then and another buddy has 3 to his credit. The first guy recovered 1 of the 2 with an additional shot and the other guy 1 of the 3 with an additional shot. From all the other folks that I've hunted with over the years, I'd estimate a wild guess at anywhere from 2%-5% of their shots were Spine Stun Shots. Eventually the folks figure out what is causing their shots to go higher than they expect, and the Percentage drops immediately to 0%. Or so it seems with the folks I've hunted with. | |||
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This aint no BS. It happened to me, rather my hunting buddy. I was there. Right at dark he made a neck shot at a deer at about 100yds. I was at his deer with the truck about 10 min after the shot. We threw him in the truck. About 5 min later we were at a cross fence gate. The deer had stood up in the back of the truck. It jumped out and ran off. We found no blood in the truck or at the sight that night or the next morning. All we found were a few hairs at the shot sight. Only thing we could figure is it 'nicked' and 'stunned' him. Bang Flop? capt david | |||
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Quote: I've personally shot about 30-50 whitetails in the neck. Some hit spine bones, some did not. I never saw one run, step, walk, or trot anywhere, and none needed a second shot. All were with Nosler B-tips from various calibers, but mostly 270 or 7 Rem Mag. ALL shots were under 125 yards. Plus, I had plenty of time for the shot. However, I am not saying that you do NOT need a follow up. I've moved on to some tougher bullets whether I need them or not, because I have chosen to aim for bone now more often. I use Triple Shocks, Accubonds, and other tougher bullets. If I have a choice, I will put the bullet where the spine meets the scapula on a broadside shot. | |||
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I don't want to start anything, but I hunt Texas where many use feeders at about 75yds. Because of the closness and high deer population head shots are often taken. I used to, but no longer. I'm 57 and have hunted since I was 14.I have personaly seen two deer with their jaw/mouth shot away. I can only go by my experience. capt david. | |||
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I was pretty surprized at all the opinions that there was no bang/flop load for whitetails.  My recipe that has worked for me for over 7 years now and has taken 14 whitetails (approx count) all with one shot and all ran less than 10 feet (mostly momentum) after being hit is quite simply this.... 308 Winchester (easy to duplicate velocity with 30-06) 150gr Nosler Partition 48.5gr Reloader 15 CCI Large Rifle Primer Remington Brass Note: This load may not be safe for your gun. Consult a loading manual!!! The load runs about 2,750 fps out of my Remington Model 7SS with 20" barrel and so far has penetrated to and wrecked vitals in every whitetail I've shot with it. Most of the shots were broadside but two were shot from the front and one was quartering away. No Texas heart shots. Meat damage is always minimal and bullet performance was textbook perfect EVERY time. This hunting was in North Florida and the bucks I shot were all between 125lbs and 160lbs so they're maybe a bit small compared to northern whitetails. Killing game isn't rocket science. Using a 30 caliber Nosler Partition running over 2500fps and a good shot into the "vital zone" simply works. Note: Most of my deer were shot running with dogs behind them and they still fell immediately. In fact I can't remember even one of these deer that was still on his feet when my vision was restored after recoil's effect. (less than a second). None of them got up again either....  They fall like hit by the hammer of Thor. Just the plain and simple facts... No embellishment....  btw... Interesting link.... Where to Hit Game $bob$ | |||
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Quote:Quote:Quote: Yes, his question WAS about 30.06 loads. That's why I wondered why you quoted .300 mag load?? Also, the man was asking about DEER loads, so I'm unsure how Brown bear plays into this. As to my comment about 25 other calibers.....because there are many calibers that will break a deer's neck if shot placement is correct. Personally, I generally shoot for lungs, but if light is fading, a heavy for caliber bullet in the 30.06 ( 180 gr Power-point, Corelock, Interlock, etc) will break the shoulders, shock/break the spine, take the top of the lungs out and drop them "now". No flame intended, just wanted to assure the poster that a a magnum is not the only gun that will break a deer's neck. | |||
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So be I most likey have done and seen other things you have also. You most likely have done things I haven't. Your point is. | |||
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Update: I was talking to both of the guys I mentioned above last night and they both reminded me of one extremely interesting think concerning the "Spine Stun Shot" Deer. The guy that had 3 cases of it had shot one nick Buck during the Rut right after it had been "Sparing" with another Buck. He could barely see them due to a light fog at about 400yds pushing and shoving. Eventually they separated and one headed toward him. At about 200yds it was slowly walking parallel to him and he shot it with an extremely accurate 25-06 M700 Sendaro and a 100gr Combined Technology bullet. It spun around at the shot and dropped. He started down the ladder and happened to see the Buck get up and take off across the disked corn field. About an hour and a half later the other buddy grunted-in a nice Buck and dropped it with one shot shoulder-to-shoulder.When he got to the Buck he noticed another large wound above the spine just ahead of the hams. The skin was still attached like a bridge from front to rear with about a 3" section of meat missing under the skin. I'd seen nothing that morning except small Does and Tweety Birds. Came in and was looking at the Deer. We were trying to figure out what had caused the "wound" when the other guy showed up and told us his story. So, I go out to the field and track the Buck from where he had shot it across the disked corn field, through a small wooded section, across another disked field and into the woods where the second guy had grunted it up. It had quit bleeding(or I couldn't find any) after about a half a mile. The fact it had quit bleeding made no sense at all. No dirt in the wound, but it appeared to be dry to the touch and it was through the Back Strap. I still don't get it. Any ideas why it would quit bleeding with a 3" section of meat missing? And then for the second guy to be able to Grunt it in, after it had been shot once, sure speaks a lot about their mental state during the Rut. --- Oh yes, so 2 or the 3 Spine Stun Shot Deer of the second guy were recovered not 1, but 1 was recovered by a different Hunter. Amazing! Best of luck to you folks. | |||
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Quote:Quote: the man's question was about .30-.06 loads, not 25 other calibers. would u hunt brown bear with a .25-06 and expect the opportunity to make a neck shot? cold zero | |||
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What's a little piece of backstrap when you've got sugar on your mind.  | |||
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To my mind, that's EXACTLY it. Break both shoulders and the spine (with a stout bullet) That will put a deer down RIGHT NOW. | |||
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I agree with CDH I aim for the tip top of the heart or just above. Less meat damage, and you have a 3 inch grace area around your aiming point. I have never lost a deer hit in the lungs. In fact I have never lost one hit with a rifle because I am a picky shooter and no matter what the angle or shoot offered I try to put the bullet right in above the heart. I have pulled several hearts outa gutpiles with the top part shot out and many more with fragment holes through them,,,, | |||
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Is this the proper aim point for the shoulder-shoulder shot?  firstshot | |||
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Personally, I aim lower. You show a target about 1/3 down from the back, I aim more for 2/3 down, i.e. the top of the heart. The first shoulder/leg bone usually gets hit and bone/bullet fragments obliterate the heart or main arteries. Less meat loss, very quick drop, and very good blood trails (when required.) Either aim point will serve your purpose though, quite well in fact. | |||
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bmbm...for what it's worth. Our camp has performed three mercy killings over the last 10 years on deer with no lower jaw. WN | |||
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first shot, That will put em' down every time. I am certainly not a big fan of the "Hard to destruct" bullets (Failsafes, Barnes X, Bear claw, aframes, etc) but, if you are real confident in your shooting ability and could place the shot in that spot every time the tough bullets would lead to less damage. If you missed alittle either way, especialy on a "under the back-high in the lungs-no shouder bone" shot. you could loose the animals w/ the tough bullets. That is why I like the good expanders, I can trim off alittle of the back strap and the top of the shoulders and still have plenty of "sweet meat." If I miss alittle and get a high lung hit, the trauma from the NBTs will still take out enough to drop him. Alot of folks make a big fuss of "too much damage," well, down here you can kill 6 a year so, damage to alittle meat doesn't hurt the freezer stock. Good Luck! Reloader | |||
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Carry a small bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide with you for tracking. It foams up like shaveing cream on any spot of deer blood. Hope this helps. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Re: "Bang / Flop" Load For Whitetails
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