I've been putting into the draw system for a number of years in a number of states. Each state has their own method of madness on how to go about putting together theirs. Some I agree with and some I don't. Some I can see where they are coming from and some I don't have a clue what they're thinking.

But, the winner in my book for the most confusing, irrational, absolute worst system has to be Montana.

I have yet to have anyone logically explain why they do what they do. The only thing I've been able to get so far has been: you have to draw first so that you can enter the NEXT drawing and hopefully win. Huh???

The Montana draw system...

bluefin, could you be a bit more specific? being a resident i've never had any problems, although residents do draw for antelope.


i've never had any problems with that - it's been easy to understand and i ahve been successful every time except once.

The draw system in Montana was never designed for a non resident it was designed for a resident. The resident purchased his/her over the counter tag then applied for a special elk or deer permit. There were some residents who were unhappy and I think that a resident does not have to puchase a elk or deer tag before the drawing now. If he/she drew then they could hunt a district with special regulations.

Up until 1974 or 75 a non resident could purchase an over the counter deer/elk license. Then they went with a 17,000 license limit sold on a first come first serve which worked well until the late 1980's. The the FWP started drawing non resident licenses due to the demand. The licenses sold out the first day. If my memory is right in the 70's, 80's the only drawing for antlered elk was in the Missouri Breaks County then they established and started drawing for trophy deer. They was a small drawing for late season and antlerless elk in the 70's which was popular with the locals.

I guess this is the way it has always been done and it works fine for a resident. If they had one drawing for special elk or deer districts then the non resident license number would have to increase or they would have to subtract the draw tags from the 17,000 pool. I am against increasing the 17,000 number.

They is plenty of hunting opportunity during the general season for those who draw.

pard - i don't know all the specifics, but i think you've got a few facts mixed up. i've got some contacts at the montana FWP. if you have any questions, they can sure answer them for you - or perhaps other montanans here who pay attention to that can clear it up.

as long as i have been hunting, a resident simply has to buy an over the counter tag to hunt deer or elk, and apply for a drawing for an antelope (nearly always a sure thing).

the resident also has the option for a number of B tags (antlerless deer) and occasionally there are also antlerless antelope tags that are over the counter when tehre is a surplus. i believe these surplus tags are open to residents and non residents, but i could be wrong.

as i understand it, to hunt some specific areas with high trophy potential, a person (resident or non) has had to apply for a permit and also must already have a tag.

this business of "the system is set up to favor residents" smacks of sour grapes. if you want the advantages of hunting here, then move here and live on half the money (or less) that the rest of the country makes.

Now Tas,
Nobody made you draw straws with the short one having to live in Mont. BTW, how's the state sales tax coming along? If I remember right ya'll were getting plenty of folks from Wy crossing the border because of it.
Also, a lot of the hunting grounds are Federal. Meaning - we ALL pitch in proportionately. But that's another subject altogether...

What confuses me is what you mentioned earlier. You have to have a tag BEFORE you can apply for a permit. Why? Why isn't it like all the other states where you apply for a unit and you either get drawn or not? Is there the chance that you could get the tag but not the permit? Where do you get the tag from? Is the draw for the permit only or for the tag/permit? I can't tell the chicken from the egg. Which goes first?

Bluefin I just spent almost an hour answering your question but I lost it in transmital.

Pard,
LOL. I hate it when that happens!

quote:

Nobody made you draw straws with the short one having to live in Mont.

definitely not complaining, bluefin - i wouldn't live anywhere else.

quote:

What confuses me is what you mentioned earlier. You have to have a tag BEFORE you can apply for a permit. Why? Why isn't it like all the other states where you apply for a unit and you either get drawn or not? Is there the chance that you could get the tag but not the permit? Where do you get the tag from? Is the draw for the permit only or for the tag/permit? I can't tell the chicken from the egg. Which goes first?

honestly, bluefin, i don't know. i've never done the permit thing. as i've always lived near excellent hunting country that doesn't involve the hassle.

this website might clear it up:

montana fish, wildlife and parks

The MT drawing isn't that difficult to understand once you grasp the concept that a license and a permit are two different things.

A license is bought OTC or drawn in the general drawing if you're a NR. A permit is issued per hunt district unit and is only good for that specific hunt unit. A permit MUST be used in conjunction with a license.

For instance, if I'm a resident I can go down to the local hardware store and buy an elk tag OTC. This allows me to hunt the majority of the state for both rifle and archery seasons as stated in the'general season' section for each specific unit as listed in the regulations. If there are any specific regulations for said unit, I can apply for a permitt to hunt, say a cow, in that same unit if cows are not allowed on a general license.

For all other units not open to general season regulations you must apply for a permit, be it a cow tag, either sex, or (trophy) bull. However some units allow you to shoot either sex elk on your general elk license, while others are brow tine only bull, etc. Look in the regulations for a specific unit and you'll understand the concept. Each unit will specifically state what can be hunted in general season on a specific license.

Deer is very similar, with the exception that doe permits are licenses, meaning you can shoot a second deer (or more). There are however a handful of units that you must posses a buck permit in order to hunt them within in that unit. I also believe that if you posses such a buck permit you can only hunt mule deer in that unit, but can hunt whitetails state wide.

I know it sounds confusing but it really isn't. MT has probably the best hunting in the west because they micro manage animals on a specif herd basis.

If you're a NR, you apply for the elk or big game combination license, if drawn you essentially can hunt 75% of the state, with the exception of the units that require you to have a special permit to hunt either sex, bulls etc.

Deer is the same, but you can hunt about 95% of the state on your buck license. Some units are open to both species of deer and in some cases both sex, while others are restriced and are on a pemitt basis.

Whats nice about the system, is you don't have to put all your eggs in one basket... if you don't draw your special permitt you still get to hunt.

Antelope, is totally dependant on unit, and is like every other state. You apply for a specific unit (regardless of residency) and if you don't draw you don't hunt.

BTW, my vote for most confussing goes to Virgina...

Ivan, thanks that is what I generally wrote until it was lost in transmittal. I did not want to write it over. What Ivan wrote is correct.

Ivan,
Thanks for your explanation. You are correct in that you have to "apply" for a license first. I spoke with a nice lady with Montana's G&F dept. who explained it just like you did.

The part I was having trouble absorbing was applying to even get a license. It's the only state that I've applied to that doesn't automatically issue you a license and I apply in about 10 different states.

I also didn't think to ask the lady: if you do get a license but don't get drawn in the unit you ask for, do you still get a bonus point?

BTW, Texas is bad in that the draw is so late. It's frustrating b/c by the time the draw comes out all the decent leases have been filled. For the life of me I can't see why they wait so long into the year to have the drawing. In some cases you have 2 months or less to plan and do your hunt. Beauracracy....

Ok, lets say I'm a N.R. and I apply for antelope, if I don't draw do I get a point towards next year or do I have to buy a point at the time I apply, to help me out next year?

MT only issues 13500 (I think) NR elk/deer combo lisences, and about 18-20,000 people apply. Consequently some will not get one. Almost every state has a limit on how many NR they allow to hunt. I think ID has a cap of 25,000 or something. CO has a 20 or 35% cap on limited draw units, etc...

Just because you don't draw a permit, doesn't mean you can't hunt. Like I said you can hunt about 75% of the state for elk and about 95% for deer on your NR big game Combo tag. In order to get to hunt one of the units making up the remaining 25% and 5% you need to draw the special permit.

You have to apply to get a point at the time of application and be unsucessful to get one. Its only $20 or what ever...

Ivan,
Some of it's the language. MT calls a license a conservation tag. Everybody else in the United States calls it a license. I just don't get why MT doesn't do like most of the other states and that is all applicants have to buy a license when they do the draw. It's all done at the same time. If you don't get your draw you still have your license and you can do a private landowner transaction. The landowners are only allowed so many tags and when they run out of tags then that's it.

Consevation License Each new year, a new conservation License is required to purchase any fishing, tapping or hunting license(s), or to apply for special licenses/permits.

Cost Residents: $8
Non Residents: $10

All of the 17,000 Non Resident licenses of which 11,500 are drawn and the remainder which are issued though outfitters include a consevation license. All a conservation license is is the basic information that the Fish, Wildlife and uses so that you can add a fishing, elk/deer license, trapping or another license on it.

Why does Montana not do it like other states? This is the way it has always been done and it work's maybe not the best for a non resident but that is the way it is. Montana does not have nor does it need landower permits.

Bluefin, what hunting districts and species of game are you trying to hunt? There are several of us on this board that could help you. Why don't you post the district and species of animals that you intend to hunt. We can go from there.

Remember the deadline is March 15 for Non Resident Combination Licenses. The 2008 tentative regulations indicate a 2nd cow license could be apply for without a Non Resident Combination License, which is new. The deadline for this drawing will be June 1,2008. Hey with a couple of doe deer tags and antelope doe tag plus a cow elk tag one could have 7 to 10 days of good hunting.

ivan - thanks for clearing things up.

pard - sorry about the confusion on my part.

bluefin - i think of a conservation license as a sort of "pre-requisite" before buying any other license, tag etc. basically, in orer to take part in any hunting, fishing, trapping etc. in montana, you must have a conservation license. the fees you pay help ensure that montana has the financial resources to manage its natural resources well, at least in theory. in practice it must work well, because people try hard to come up here.

A conservation license is included with your NR big game combo license if you're drawn, hence the "combo" part, it also includes upland bird and fishing. IMO its a pretty good bargain, considering a year fishing is $60, and upland bird is $110!

I haven't appled for a special permit in about 10 years. IMO Its a waste of money... The opportunity abounds in the state on a general license. Many units are either sex for elk now, and cow tags are not needed.

Fill out your NR application, if you draw you're done... go hunting, if you don't draw you have a few options, like antelope, doe deer tags, bear tags, etc, all of which you'll have to purchase a conservation licese in order to apply for or buy OTC.

Most people don't look into other options if they don't draw deer/elk, hence saving themselves the cost of the conservation license even though its peanuts in the grand scheeme of things.

MT Land owner License and Permits are are a whole nother ball game, and are very confussing. I think there is also a certain number of LO deer tags set aside in the speicail drawing, but I'm not sure if they come out of the 17,000 pool or not. (just looked) there is 2000 LO deer tags set aside, inorder to apply for one, you need LO to sponcer you, and you need other documents from the LO to send in with your application. MT also issues LO permits. Confussed?

MT does have an outfitter welfare system however, that you can apply for if you plan on hunting with a outfitter. The fee's are nearly 2x as much, but the odds of getting the license are about 100%.

Personally I hate having to buy a license before I can apply for a hunt. For example when I apply for an ID moose permitt and I get hit with a $140 hunting license fee... I don't intend on hunting ID unless I draw the moose tag, and sure I could make a trip to hunt deer/elk on an OTC tag.... I just think the $140 is a little excessive, but you got to pay to play.

CO doesn't charge me anything, WY doesn't charge me anything, etc... There are lots of states that don't make you cough up money up front like MT. There are also lots of states that do because they know NR will pay it and go on about thier business. IMO MT is the most NR freindly state there is in the west.

I believe MT set up the Conservasion licnese so that they would have a specific 'fee' paid by each hunter and could ear mark the funds directly for "conservation" projects, vs having to go through the process of obtaining funds from the 'general hunting fund'.

Montana Constitution, Article 9 Sec. 7 : The opportunity to harvest wild fish and wild game animals is a heritage that shall forever be preserved to the individual citizen of the state...

Humm, doesn't mention anything about the convenience of non-residents wanting to hunt here.

The "it's federal land arguement" sorry the US Supreme Court settled that, states rights thing on the game. You can hike all you want though.

I seems that plenty of nice folks (I am serious here, the vast majority of NR I've run into over the years were very nice. Only one time have I witnessed a NR being an ass, FWP and I made sure they will not be coming back, at least not for several years.) want to come here and hunt. Great. Thanks for coming, hope you had a nice time, now go home. (Joking)

On a more sober note, if your home state game population or opportunity to hunt was as in good a shape as Montana's would you want to come here? Are your woods "too crowded"? Why should MT be your playground? You want to enjoy the same privilages as a resident, move here. (God knows it seems everyone IS moving to Bozeman...)

Don't feel too bad I've been putting in for a rifle permit in 380 forever, no luck. So appartently be a resident doesn't automatically give you a permit.

Any license you apply for in Wyoming as a non resident you pay an application fee which is nonrefundable of $14 and the tags are outrageously priced. To get a landowner license you must own 180 acres minimum and have it certified by the F & G dept.
Now if you want to hunt whitetail or turkey then Ohio is the place. Get your non resident license over the counter and then the tags are the same price a resident pays.

Rad